Israel and the church the same thing in the NT?

[Dave M]

To my understanding the church is grafted into Israel and we are the same thing once we all become children of God. The only separation I see is the OT saints and the NT saints.

what say you??

 

[Reba1]

One can of all kinds of worms

 

[Dave M]

One in Christ
Ephesians 2
11. Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)—
12. remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14. For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility
15. by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace
16. and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility.
17. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.
18. For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Christ Our Cornerstone

19.Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household,
20. built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.
21. In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
22. And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

Ephesians 3
6. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.


I read this and am convinced that we and Israel are one body. no separation everything that was promised to Israel is for all believers.

One king over one body,

One shepherd over one flock

Yes we are one with at a doubt in my mind

 

[Bob Carabbio]

To my understanding the church is grafted into Israel and we are the same thing once we all become children of God.

Grafted into SPIRITUAL ISRAEL - not physical Israel.

There were those in Israel who were persons of FAITH in the Old testament who, when they died, waited in the place of the dead for their promised cleansing until Jesus was crucified as their perfect SIN OFFERING.

And there were living Israelites, who (after the Crucifixion) were born Again by FAITH and were the CHURCH of Jesus Christ. What was "Grafted in" wasn't the CHURCH, but the Gentile peoples who also became Born Again by FAITH. Everybody of FAITH is the "Church".

And Many "Physical Israelites" continued to be nothing but unregenerate pagans, just like the Gentiles.

 

[Reba1]

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

 

[BlessedBeyondBelief]

Yes.

[HASH=5533]#thatwaseasy[/HASH]

 

[complete]

To my understanding the church is grafted into Israel and we are the same thing once we all become children of God. The only separation I see is the OT saints and the NT saints.

what say you??

Hello @Dave M,

I think you need to go back and read your Bible again, for the church is no longer grafted into Israel, for Israel as a nation is still in unbelief. No, we are now joined together as Jew and Gentile believers in One Body with Christ as our Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Dave M]

for the church is no longer grafted into Israel,

yet the NT says the opposite, could you provide scripture that supports what you say. Because the scripture is clear we are grafted in that has not changed at all

thanks

 

[complete]

yet the NT says the opposite, could you provide scripture that supports what you say. Because the scripture is clear we are grafted in that has not changed at all

thanks

'Ye worship ye know not what:
we know what we worship:
for salvation is of the Jews.'
(Joh 4:22)

Hello @Dave M,

I understand. Throughout the Acts period salvation was 'of the Jews', as our Lord said to the woman of Samaria in the verse quoted above. So the believing Gentiles of Acts 10 were grafted into Israel, and partook of the fatness of the Olive tree of Israel. Yet, with the departure of Israel into the darkness of unbelief, finally at Acts 28, marked by the quoting, for the third time, of Isaiah 6:9-10, salvation was sent to the Gentiles. So Christ was, and is now, 'in' or 'among' them, their hope of glory, independent of Israel as a nation.

You have read Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, I'm know Dave, with the hope and blessings revealed there which are exclusively for the Church which is the Body of Christ. So uniquely different than that of either redeemed Israel (to come) or the Bride, which is taken out of Israel. The Church which is His Body is that prepared by God, and revealed to Paul while in prison in Rome in the light of the final rejection of Christ, and their failure to respond to the message of Peter in Acts 3:19-21, which He foreknew.

Israel is in a Lo-ammi condition now, 'not My People', so the Olive tree is no longer there, at this present time, to be grafted into.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Rockerduck]

Romans 11:15-20 -

15 For if their(Israel) being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith

 

[complete]

Romans 11:15-20 -

15 For if their(Israel) being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith

Hello @Rockerduck,

The epistle to the Romans was written at the end of the Acts period: 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians and Hebrews were also written during that forty year period; prior to the final rejection of Christ by the Jews both in the Land and in the Diaspora (among the nations), Up until that time salvation was 'of the Jews' (John 4:22), and when believing Gentiles were given entrance into the Kingdom, they were grafted into Israel, explained under the figure of an Olive Tree in Romans 11.

It was in Acts 28:28 that salvation was sent to the Gentiles, and God revealed His truth regarding the Church which is His (Christ's) body, 'the fulness of Him that filleth all in all' (Ephesians 1:22-23) . This revealed truth was made known in the epistles which followed, written from prison: ie., Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon. This company are comprised of individual Jews and Gentiles, who are equal, and united in Christ Jesus their Head.

The Olive tree of Israel is no longer there to be grafted into, Israel having departed into the darkness of unbelief. Which is the mystery of Israel's blindness referred to in (Romans 11:25)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello Complete,

I know the history of Israel. I'm fully aware Israel was the olive branch. The branch was on the Temple doors in gold also. I context, this was St. Paul's answer to Rome. Here in Galatians ,also before AD70 when Jerusalem was destroyed, St Paul describes the same thing, but its for us today.

Galatians 3:26-29-NLT
26 For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes. 28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.

In Christ,
Donald

 

[complete]

Hello Complete,

I know the history of Israel. I'm fully aware Israel was the olive branch. The branch was on the Temple doors in gold also. I context, this was St. Paul's answer to Rome. Here in Galatians ,also before AD70 when Jerusalem was destroyed, St Paul describes the same thing, but its for us today.

Galatians 3:26-29-NLT
26 For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes. 28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.

In Christ,
Donald

'For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed,
and heirs according to the promise.'
(Gal 3:26 -29)

Thank you for responding, @Rockerduck,

I did not want to give the impression that I thought you did not know: I was just conveying my own understanding of these things to you.

Thank you for pointing out the content of Galatians 3:26-29. Yes this is a truth, which is as much for today as then. Yet at that time Israel still had prior place, and salvation still came through Israel, Gentiles were grafted in, and partook of the root and fatness of Israel as the Olive Tree, partaking thereby of Abraham's blessings. The entry of believing Gentiles into the Kingdom, was with the sole purpose of making Israel jealous. Salvation had not yet been 'sent' to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28): for the door was still open for Israel to repent and take up their role as Priests unto God among the Gentiles (Acts 3:19-21).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Israel and the church the same thing in the NT?

To my understanding the church is grafted into Israel and we are the same thing once we all become children of God. The only separation I see is the OT saints and the NT saints.

what say you??

Hello @Dave M,

Those men and women of faith listed in Hebrews 11, are the Old Testament saints that you refer to, aren't they? These are the 'witnesses' of the past (Hebrews 12:1), who had heard and believed God's word to them, but had all died without having received the promises (Hebrews 11:13). They all await the resurrection of the dead in order for those promises to be fulfilled in and for them. Those 'saints' look for a better resurrection (Hebrews 11:35), which, I believe, could be the first of two mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, which will take place before the 1,000 year reign of the Overcomers of the great tribulation, with Christ. Their hope is to reign with Him for 1,000 years, and as 'The Bride, the Lamb's wife', descend in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:9).

That is not The Church which is His (Christ's) Body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all, of which He is the Head; for their blessings and their hope are all to be enjoyed, far above all heavens (Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 4:10), where Christ sits at God's right hand. Yes, it is a heavenly hope, will ALL 'spiritual' blessings associated with it. It's members also look for the resurrection of the dead, for these promises to become theirs, for they have been promised life in Christ Jesus, when this corruption with have put on in-corruption and this mortal will have put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris