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Isaiah 9:6, Is Jesus the Everlasting Father?

Discussion in 'Evidence & Prophecy' started by Chad, Apr 23, 2013.

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  1. "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace," (Isaiah 9:6).

    Oneness Pentecostal believers deny the Trinity and teach that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are all one person. They sometimes quote Isaiah 9:6 in their attempt to prove their position. However, Isaiah 9:6 cannot be used to disprove the Trinity nor bolster their Oneness doctrine.

    When Isaiah 9:6 says that Jesus' name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, etc., it is not saying that Jesus is the eternal Father, but that he has the characteristics of God. In other words, Jesus has all the attributes of God, including eternality.

    In the ancient Jewish culture, names had meanings. We can better understand this by noting American Indian names such as "Running Wolf" or "Fighting Bear." The same with Jewish names. They had meanings. Isaac, for example, means "laughter." Noah means "rest" or "peace." So, when Isaiah is speaking of the name of the coming Messiah and says his name will be Mighty God, Eternal Father, etc., it is telling us about the characteristics of the Messiah to come in a prophetic manner.

    If Jesus' name is "Eternal Father," then why don't we call Jesus "Eternal Father"? For that matter, why don't we call his name "Wonderful Counselor," or "Mighty God," or "Prince of Peace"? The text speaks of a name, yet has four things revealed in the name. Again, this shows us that it is the characteristics of the then-coming Messiah. The fact that the Messiah would be divine is verified in Heb. 1:3 when it says, "And He [Jesus] is the radiance of His [God] glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power..." This also explains why Jesus said, "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father," (John 14:9). It was because Jesus so precisely represented God the Father as His prophesied name reveals.

    Furthermore, the Oneness Pentecostal people assert that God's name is really "Jesus." If that is true, and if Jesus is the Eternal Father as they claim, then why don't they call Jesus "The Eternal Father" as His name? Does it also mean the mode that God is in right now is that of the Father since His name is "Eternal Father," implying He is always the Father? If that is taken literally, then God is the Eternal Father, and the true person of the Godhead is the Father, not the Son as the Oneness people assert.

    The Oneness Pentecostal theology is incorrect and improperly describes the true and living God.

    Isaiah 9:6, Is Jesus the Everlasting Father? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
  2. In the Flesh ? Jesus was the Only begotten son of GOD1 In His Spirit He was always a Part of god Full being !
    It was Jesus though the old testament ! Of course He was not called Jesus ! Until He came into the flesh !
    that why He gets a New name !

    Eph_3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    Rev_4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
    Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
    Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    Rev_22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
    Joh_14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    Joh_16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

    Joh_16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

    Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Heb_1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    Exo_13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
    Exo_13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

    Jesus appeared in many forms in the bible !

    Joh_20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    We pray to our Father God in the mighty name of our LORD JESUS!
    We cast out devils and raise the dead and heal the sick in the mighty name of our Lord Jesus and Much more in His mighty name!

    Our Lives in the Kingdom of GOD is thur JESUS CHRIST our LORD!

    We do all things as unto too Jesus !
  3. #4 james1523, Apr 24, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
    Simple.. it says "name" of the (singular) .. not "names" of the... the name (singular) of the Father, Son, Spirit.. is Jesus Christ. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not names. But there is only one name above all other names.. Jesus Christ.. Plus we have proof that in Acts, the disciples only used the name of Jesus Christ. There is no recorded instance of them saying "in the name of the Father, in the name of the Son, in the name of the Spirit". 1 Cor 1:13 "....Were you baptized in the name of Paul?" No.. they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

    The name of Jesus Christ was central to the believer's lives (Acts 5:40). There was none of the "name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" formula. In fact, in some traditional churches I've been in, they are afraid to use the name of Jesus, and the name of Jesus is mentioned rarely, shame really.

    Isaiah 9:6 describes all that Christ is to us, in one person. It means that Jesus is the Father and the Son in oneness. "I and my Father are one". It is wrong to say Jesus is the Father *only* , or Jesus is the Son *only*. But to say Jesus is "the Father and the Son as one" is correct. The Son dwelt in the Father and the Father dwelt in the Son Col 1:19. Wherever the Son is, the Father and Spirit are also, and wherever the Father is, the Son and Spirit are also, they are inseparably One, yet distinctly Three. Oneness doctrine denies the Three.. and Tri-theism denies the One. The Trinity can be confusing in the sense that it is both One and Three.. sometimes we can emphasize the oneness, and other times we can emphasize the Threeness, but it is hard to comprehend them both together.

    One verse which shows the threeness and the oneness is this one:
    John 14:23 "Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

    So we love Jesus and obey His teaching. The result? Jesus says "we" will come to them and make our home. Who is we? It is the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. But obviously only the Spirit comes to us. But this does not mean the Father and the Son are left behind.. they are inseparably one. The Father and the Son come in and with the Spirit. So it is correct to say that the "Father is with me", "the Son is with me", and "the Spirit is with me". Or we could just say "Jesus is with me".
  4. One in essence three in person, different in functionality and role, yet fully residing one with the other in their spiritual nature or person-hood.
    When we are" born again" the three become resident in us. As scripture says, "we are not our own", not only paid for by the blood of Christ but also indwelt by the triune God.
  5. I think what is confusing the issue here is the concept of "in the name of" and what this meant to the Hebrew thinker and hearer in the Hebrew cultural usage of the term. It does not mean a name like Joe or Bob, rather it describes one's essential being, presence, or authority. The Hebrew word "shem" translated "name" is actually a bad translation. When Isaiah 9:6 says His shem shall be called it refers to His nature, characteristics, role, etc.,....for example, western evangelicals always combine wonderful and counsellor but this is in error. The word "wonderful" here is pele' and means a man full of wonders and speaks to the miraculous works He would do, where counselor refers to His role as an advocate on our behalf...

    When one comes in the name of the King (Jesus came in the name of the Father but that name is not Jesus) the one who comes to do the work or declare the word of the King comes as the presence of the King with full authority and power to carry out the will of the King. Kind of like when we hear today "Stop! In the name of the Law!" We had better stop or else, because that person has the right or power to enforce and execute that law.

    Now YHVH (there is only one YHVH) IS the Father, and that same one and only YHVH IS the Son (or Word) and that same YHVH IS the Holy Spirit, but the Father is not the Son nor the Spirit, neither is the Son the Father or the Spirit, neither is the Spirit the Father or the Son. The Son or Memra (Logos in Greek, Word in English...look up The Memra), according to scripture, is before all things and created all things and the angels worship Him and so on but Jesus (it is said) was made a little lower than the angels. Jesus is the name the Father gave Him as the God-man, the Savior/ the Son, His name is YHVH (I can show you from scripture that the one who became Jesus is YHVH, if you are unaware).

    This phrase Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit just like Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ actually meant the same thing...neither is a formula (though after a couple of 100 years it became as such) actually speaks to operating the delegated authority (invoking the presence of and working the will of) of the one in whose name we are acting. So in effect men decided (after Nicea) that the formula the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit was the wording we are to use. Acts 2:38 for example when it says "and be baptized INTO (eis) the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" it saying be baptized into His presence, authority, and work (google "The Shem" just for your edification, even if after you do not agree).

    The Baptismal ritual is effectual if the heart is right before God...if the heart is wrong 1,000 baths and 1,000 loaves and wines are meaningless. Simon Magi for example "believed and was baptized" but he was not saved....his heart was wrong before God. Yes he believed what he saw that the Holy Spirit was doing by Christ's authority and wanted part of it, but it was so he (called some Great One) could do these things...and Peter knew it and rebuked him...

    Just some thoughts

    Brother Paul
  6. The Everlasting Father…what does this mean?

    In the Hebrew the word is ad’ab which is more correctly pronounced “father everlasting” the word ab with a small ‘a’ is not necessarily a person but implies here the progenitor, or beginning…as we have seen in John, Colossians, and Hebrews, He is the creator and He is the beginning and the end of all things…He is God but not necessarily the personae we call “The Father”…He is eternally begotten of the Father…the Father sends the Spirit and the Son sends the Spirit and the Father and the Son are shown to have subject/object dialogues and the Father answers the Son…

    The Son tells us something very interesting…He says of “The Father” that no one has ever seen Him nor heard His voice. Yet all through the OT YHVH appears and YHVH speaks…who then is this, if not the Father (it is YHVH the Son who declares Him, that is makes Him manifest). Note in Exodus 3 “the Angel of the LORD” speaks to Moses and a little further on identified Himself as the “I Am” the God of Moses fathers. Who is speaking here? Who does Moses see and hear? The Son is always the one that glorified the Father (who no one ever saw or heard) and the Spirit always glorifies the Son.

    Abraham sees and speaks with the LORD (YHVH), Hagar sees Him and hears Him, Jacob, Manoah and his wife and so on…He appears as the Arm, the Shekinah, the Man, the Similitude of the LORD, and more.

    Take Isaiah 48 as an example…YHVH is speaking…He says He is the first and the last, the one who spread out the heavens, who knows the end from the beginning (bereshith – creation) and then in verse 16 says :and now the Lord God has sent me with His Spirit…

    Who was the YHVH that sent Him with the Spirit and who was the YHVH that was sent?

    Think on these things…Selah!

    Brother Paul
  7. Thanks Bro. Paul. The more we contemplate who Jesus is, and His relationship with the Father, being the 'Memra', (yes, I looked it up), the more one is astonished at the humility that brought Him to us as a human being. And also some insight as to how intimately involved was the Father in the incarnation.
    Thinking on the is this living word, the power of God that abides in us. As we trust in this inexplicable love, a love that brought to us redemption, why do we place so many limitations on what God can accomplish in and through us?
    And when we read passages like Colossians 1:12-19 one can readily recognize the Hebrew roots of the author, when compared to the understanding of 'Memra' in Hebrew culture and tradition, and the action of the 'Memra' upon creation.
  8. #9 Jehonadab, Apr 15, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
    Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in<(eis, “into”) the name<(onoma, “character”) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

    1 Corinthians 12:13 “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

    The import of “in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” at Matthew 28:19 is that one spirit 1 Corinthians 12:13 speaks concerning. Thus we are to baptize eis or into that one spirit unified character.

    That then sets us up for teaching a one unified obedience by that one unified spirit to all that Jesus as the Word of God commanded.

    Matthew 28:20 “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

    That unification can be clearly seen in that Jesus did not speak of his own will but spoke only what the Father taught him to speak.

    John 8:28 “Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.”

    John 8:38 “I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.”

    John 12:50 “And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”

    John 6:63 “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
  9. #10 Jehonadab, Apr 18, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
    "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace," (Isaiah 9:6)

    Isaiah 11:1 "And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.
    [Wonderful Counselor] 2 And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.
    [Prince of Peace] 3 And his delight shall be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears;
    4 but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
    [Mighty God] and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
    [Eternal Father, 1 Corinthians 15:22,45] 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his waist, and faithfulness the girdle of his loins." (ASV)

    Just ponder. Who would have been mankind's eternal father had he not sinned? Who took that one's place that we might live?

    And before anyone gets upset and chastises me as if I am talking against the Trinity belief, let me point out that Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 11:1-5 are speaking about the human twig out of the stump of Jesse and what became of that son of man/son of God, beginning while he was yet in the flesh. That is why Isaiah 9:6 speaks of it as future tense, "will be", whereas God the Father already was and always will be our Father, always was and always will be the Almighty God.

    Realizing this applies to Jesus assuming Adam's role as mankind's everlasting father changes nothing about who Jesus was before coming to earth. Some may resist it only because it turns out that this passage may not be such a good Trinity defense as they thought. That would be ridiculous, for we care about finding the truth of the scriptures, not about trying to find them supporting our beliefs.
  10. #11 james1523, Apr 18, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
    I believe the Bible teaches a version of the Trinity which is slightly different to the orthodox interpretation. The orthodox interpretation never allows for any of the persons of the Trinity to be another person of the Trinity. For this reason, verses which show that Jesus is the Father, do not fit such an interpretation, and interpreters are left fumbling around suggesting that what it says is not what it means. But an idea that Jesus is not something He is called doesn't make sense. If Jesus is called the Father then He is the Father otherwise Isaiah 9:6 would be a lie.

    If we say that Jesus being called the Father doesn't mean he was the Father, also sheds doubt on other names He is called - Messiah, Son of God, Son of Man, etc.

    Proof that Jesus is the Father is not only by Isaiah 9:6, but also by this verse:
    John 14:9 Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?

    If Jesus is not the Father then why has anyone who has seen Jesus seen the Father? Because Jesus is the Father.
    The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Father in human flesh.

    Also, the Holy Spirit is the Father (Luke 1:35).
    How is this possible? It's a mystery.

    Jesus existed from eternity past, just like the Father. Arianism was a heresy that said that Jesus was a created being, and subordinate to the Father.

    Jesus is the complete God -Father, Son and Spirit in human flesh. (Col 2:9). In Jesus dwelt the fullness of the Godhead.

    Jesus was and is the visible manifestation of the 3 persons of the Trinity. Some believe that the Father is *only* in Heaven, and that Jesus is *only* the Son of God in human flesh. But the Bible teaches that Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Spirit in human flesh.

    Jesus told his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. This name is none other than the name of Jesus, who is the Father, Son and Spirit. This is proved by the practice of the early Christians in baptizing people in the name of Jesus. When people worshipped Jesus as God (eg in John 20:28 Thomas exclaimed "My Lord and my God"), they were not only worshiping the Son of God as God, but the completely Trinity in human form. For this reason, it was not blasphemy. Phil 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God".

    May we have a greater appreciation for Jesus Christ, realizing that He is not just the 2nd person of the Trinity, not just the Son of God, but the complete Trinity in the flesh.

  11. #12 Jehonadab, Apr 18, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
    We ought not force our desired context on the scriptures and Isaiah 9:6 is talking not about God the Almighty but about the twig out of the stump of the human Jesse who could sit on David's human thrown as the greatest of all of earth's kings and as a replacement for the human head of our dominion (our earthly father) which we lost in Adam.

    I am truly sorry if that bothers anyone but the truth of scripture remains what God saw fit to put in it, not what we want to be in it.

    Added: I would assume you are aware that the Hebrews had no word for grand-fathers. The entire line of fathers down to a person's birth were all called their father.

    I also assume you know that our translators added the capitalization in that verse as there were none used in the Hebrew passage.

    So I also would assume that you can understand that referring to Adam as the father of the human race and the one to whom God originally gave the dominion of this earth, does not negate that God is our everlasting highest possible father. Neither did Adam's being given dominion negate that God himself was yet the highest order of all rulers over that dominion of man as it unfolded. God never ceased being either of those things toward mankind, so you tell me how it is you believe Isaiah 9:6 speaks of God becoming what he already is and has been?
  12. #13 james1523, Apr 18, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
    That being so, John 14:9 alone, proves that Jesus is the Father, as well as John 10:30. That's what God saw fit to put in there.
    The Bible also teaches that Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 3:17, 2 Cor 13:5, Gal 2:20) and theologians stumble over this one also, because it doesn't fit with their preconceived ideas.
    To doubting Thomas, Jesus and the Father were the same person, leading him to call Jesus "my God". And to the apostle Paul, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ were the same, inspiring him to write that Christ is inside of him.
    But these are all aspects of Jesus being the Trinity in human flesh (Col 2:9).
  13. #14 Jehonadab, Apr 18, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
    Then Isaiah 9:6 speaking purely of the restoration of the original dominion given to the human father Adam (which is why Jesus is called "the last Adam") should not be an earth shaking revelation to anyone.

    1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
  14. #15 james1523, Apr 20, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
    You have not addressed John 14:9 or John 10:30 which shows that Jesus is the Father, independently of Isaiah 9:6.
    In 1 Cor 15:45, Jesus was made a quickening spirit, which can be none other than the (indwelling) Holy Spirit, who quickens us and gives life to our mortal bodies.

    That Jesus was with the Father, and was the Father is also indicated by:
    John 1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

  15. Again, that may be so. However, that is not what is being referred to at Isaiah 9:6.

    Glean the context of that in Isaiah and apply it as the Spirit applied through Isaiah.

    Seek to understand what was there meant concerning the role of Jesus the son of man.

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