Is Repentance Necessary For Salvation?

[B-A-C]

For you, "reasoning" means coming around to your point of view.
Instead we see that the reality is that it is God's truth that we all need to come around to and accept.

Instead of continually pointing to other verses that seemingly disagree, how do you resolve THESE verses? In order for your theology to be valid, it has to
agree with the verses below, not ignore them or avoid talking about them.
Matt 5:19; Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How about Matt 19:17; ?
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Now according to you, the only commandment is to believe in Jesus, yet Jesus says otherwise.
Matt 22:36; “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
Matt 22:38; This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Obviously believing in Jesus isn't the only command. But then those verses don't apply to you. This was like the Pharisee's.
Mark 7:8; Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
Mark 7:9; He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

What did Jesus say these commandments were? Just believing on Him?
Matt 10:19; You know the commandments, ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’”
Luke 18:20; You know the commandments, ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’”

Does Jesus really say the commandments are something we ought to do?
Luke 17:9; He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
Luke 17:10; So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

Is the verse below a mere suggestion? Or is it a command?

John 13:34; A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 13:35; By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

How about John 15:12; ? Is this also just a suggestion that doesn't really apply to anyone?

John 15:12; “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

John 15:17; This I command you, that you love one another.

The truth is, some people just choose to avoid those verses, they avoid talking about them and then tell other people "it's just your point of view".
If you don't like Jesus' teaching, we could go on to Paul and what he said about the commandments.

Romans 13:8; Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:9; For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Romans 13:10; Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

How about what Paul told the Corinthians? Does it just apply to them? Circumcision was the law, the commandments are just the commandments.

1 Corinthians 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Now of course you will go back and say the "commandments of God is simply to believe in Jesus" yet none of the previous verses about the commandments even mention believing in Jesus.

What did Paul tell the Ephesians?

Ephesians 6:2; Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

Then of course there is the discourse in 1 John 2-8;

1 Jn 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Obviously non-christians do not have Jesus as an advocate, so Paul is talking to christians when he says "you may not sin" and "if anyone sins".

1 Jn 2:2; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

If you say you know Jesus but don't keep his commandments, you are a liar.

1 Jn 2:5; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
1 Jn 2:6; the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1 Jn 2:7; Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
1 Jn 2:8; On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.

So what is this new commandment? The next few verses tell us, they leave no doubt.

1 Jn 2:9; The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
1 Jn 2:10; The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
1 Jn 2:11; But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

reflect your desire to be under the law which has blinded you.

And yet 1 Jn 2:11; says the one who doesn't love his brother (which is a commandment) is the one darkness has blinded.

1 Jn 3:23; This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
1 Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The one who keeps his commandments - by this we will know that He abides in us through the Spirit. If we are led by the Spirit we aren't under the law.
If we keep His commandments, we are obviously led by the Spirit.

 

[B-A-C]

You may say, faith matters more than love. Yet Paul says...

1 Cor 13:13; But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Jn 3:14; We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1 Jn 3:15; Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 Jn 3:16; We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1 Jn 3:17; But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
1 Jn 3:18; Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth

Verses 17 and 18 above are remarkably similar to James 2.

James 2:15; If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
James 2:16; and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
James 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

 

[RJ]

Instead of continually pointing to other verses that seemingly disagree, how do you resolve THESE verses? In order for your theology to be valid, it has to
agree with the verses below, not ignore them or avoid talking about them.
Matt 5:19; Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How about Matt 19:17; ?
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Now according to you, the only commandment is to believe in Jesus, yet Jesus says otherwise.
Matt 22:36; “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
Matt 22:38; This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Obviously believing in Jesus isn't the only command. But then those verses don't apply to you. This was like the Pharisee's.
Mark 7:8; Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
Mark 7:9; He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

What did Jesus say these commandments were? Just believing on Him?
Matt 10:19; You know the commandments, ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’”
Luke 18:20; You know the commandments, ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’”

Does Jesus really say the commandments are something we ought to do?
Luke 17:9; He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
Luke 17:10; So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

Is the verse below a mere suggestion? Or is it a command?

John 13:34; A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 13:35; By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

How about John 15:12; ? Is this also just a suggestion that doesn't really apply to anyone?

John 15:12; “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

John 15:17; This I command you, that you love one another.

The truth is, some people just choose to avoid those verses, they avoid talking about them and then tell other people "it's just your point of view".
If you don't like Jesus' teaching, we could go on to Paul and what he said about the commandments.

Romans 13:8; Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:9; For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Romans 13:10; Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

How about what Paul told the Corinthians? Does it just apply to them? Circumcision was the law, the commandments are just the commandments.

1 Corinthians 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Now of course you will go back and say the "commandments of God is simply to believe in Jesus" yet none of the previous verses about the commandments even mention believing in Jesus.

What did Paul tell the Ephesians?

Ephesians 6:2; Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

Then of course there is the discourse in 1 John 2-8;

1 Jn 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Obviously non-christians do not have Jesus as an advocate, so Paul is talking to christians when he says "you may not sin" and "if anyone sins".

1 Jn 2:2; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

If you say you know Jesus but don't keep his commandments, you are a liar.

1 Jn 2:5; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
1 Jn 2:6; the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1 Jn 2:7; Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
1 Jn 2:8; On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.

So what is this new commandment? The next few verses tell us, they leave no doubt.

1 Jn 2:9; The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
1 Jn 2:10; The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.
1 Jn 2:11; But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.



And yet 1 Jn 2:11; says the one who doesn't love his brother (which is a commandment) is the one darkness has blinded.

1 Jn 3:23; This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
1 Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The one who keeps his commandments - by this we will know that He abides in us through the Spirit. If we are led by the Spirit we aren't under the law.
If we keep His commandments, we are obviously led by the Spirit.

I am not trying to speak for Barny but, I think he would agree:

I can sum up all the above verses in the same way. Since we all obviously love Jesus, we want to all please him and we love and want to keep his commandments. We are again, obviously called to keep his commandments but that is not the issue....this is and I have brought it up on countless occassions but with no real response....here it is James 2:10.
We were not made to nor can we keep the law perfectly in this manner. If we could have in the Old testament there would have been no need for the "Day of Atonement"!
Let's all agree that the law is Holy, Blameles and Righteous and worhty to follow. I bet if we searched each others heart that we are keeping the "Law" most of the time, which is good. But, we must be honest and agree that we can not keep the law all the time perfectly. If we could there would be no need for Jesus.
I will take it a step further, even if we could keep the law without ever missing one element, we would still need Jesus, because no one comes unto the father unless he goes through Jesus.
So, lets all agree to keep the law as best as we can but, when we mess up, Jesus is right there to pick up the slack, just as if we never missed a thing!

 

[B-A-C]

I am not trying to speak for Barny but, I think he would agree:

I can sum up all the above verses in the same way. Since we all obviously love Jesus, we want to all please him and we love and want to keep his commandments. We are again, obviously called to keep his commandments but that is not the issue....this is and I have brought it up on countless occassions but with no real response....here it is James 2:10.
We were not made to nor can we keep the law perfectly in this manner. If we could have in the Old testament there would have been no need for the "Day of Atonement"!
Let's all agree that the law is Holy, Blameles and Righteous and worhty to follow. I bet if we searched each others heart that we are keeping the "Law" most of the time, which is good. But, we must be honest and agree that we can not keep the law all the time perfectly. If we could there would be no need for Jesus.
I will take it a step further, even if we could keep the law without ever missing one element, we would still need Jesus, because no one comes unto the father unless he goes through Jesus.
So, lets all agree to keep the law as best as we can but, when we mess up, Jesus is right there to pick up the slack, just as if we never missed a thing!

Well it's always possible that you are right, however if Barny does agree 100% with your assessment I will be surprised.
I would be surprised if he agrees with a few of your statements.
"we love and want to keep his commandments."
"We are again, obviously called to keep his commandments"
"Let's all agree that the law is Holy, Blameless and Righteous and worthy to follow."
"lets all agree to keep the law as best as we can but, when we mess up, Jesus is right there to pick up the slack"

But, we must be honest and agree that we can not keep the law all the time perfectly. If we could there would be no need for Jesus.

According to Barny (and DHC), we do not need to keep the law at all. According to Barny the only need for Jesus is for faith.
In fact according to Barny, the only sin you can commit, is not having faith in Jesus. According to Barny and DHC, things like
adultery, homosexuality, and murder are not sin, they are just bad behaviors.

Now like you, I believe we can sin, and I believe there is grace when we do. However, that is quite different from saying I do not sin at all.

1 Jn 1:8; If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 Jn 1:10; If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[RJ]

Well it's always possible that you are right, however if Barny does agree 100% with your assessment I will be surprised.
I would be surprised if he agrees with a few of your statements.
"we love and want to keep his commandments."
"We are again, obviously called to keep his commandments"
"Let's all agree that the law is Holy, Blameless and Righteous and worthy to follow."
"lets all agree to keep the law as best as we can but, when we mess up, Jesus is right there to pick up the slack"



According to Barny (and DHC), we do not need to keep the law at all. According to Barny the only need for Jesus is for faith.
In fact according to Barny, the only sin you can commit, is not having faith in Jesus.

Now like you, I believe we can sin, and I believe there is grace when we do. However, that is quite different from saying I do not sin at all.

1 Jn 1:8; If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 Jn 1:10; If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

According to Barny (and DHC), we do not need to keep the law at all. Well, I am not sure what it is they are saying. "Keeping the law", in the since it is a requirement for salvation, then no, we need not keep the law. But, keep it as a standard to live by,yes! After all Jesus said: Matthew 5:17.

According to Barny the only need for Jesus is for faith. I would have to say we need Jesus for faith, but not the only thing we need him for. But, when Jesus or the Holy Spirit convicts us or chastises us what other than the righteous and moral law is he correcting us with.
In fact according to Barny, the only sin you can commit, is not having faith in Jesus. No, jeez...there are all sorts of sins we still make but, not having faith in Jesus or unbelief is the only unforgivable sin obviously!

Now like you, I believe we can sin, and I believe there is grace when we do. However, that is quite different from saying I do not sin at all. Exactclamente!!!!

 

[Jehonadab]

I am not trying to speak for Barny but, I think he would agree:

I can sum up all the above verses in the same way. Since we all obviously love Jesus, we want to all please him and we love and want to keep his commandments. We are again, obviously called to keep his commandments but that is not the issue....this is and I have brought it up on countless occassions but with no real response....here it is James 2:10.
We were not made to nor can we keep the law perfectly in this manner. If we could have in the Old testament there would have been no need for the "Day of Atonement"!
Let's all agree that the law is Holy, Blameles and Righteous and worhty to follow. I bet if we searched each others heart that we are keeping the "Law" most of the time, which is good. But, we must be honest and agree that we can not keep the law all the time perfectly. If we could there would be no need for Jesus.
I will take it a step further, even if we could keep the law without ever missing one element, we would still need Jesus, because no one comes unto the father unless he goes through Jesus.
So, lets all agree to keep the law as best as we can but, when we mess up, Jesus is right there to pick up the slack, just as if we never missed a thing!

Isn't there a bit more to what James said at James 2:10 than just blandly that we are not to keep the law?

We must remember the context: James 2:1 "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

What we see is not these persons to whom James spoke were trying to be yet under that Old Law but that James was telling them the same remains true for us under the Royal Law.

We actually are misrepresenting what James said when we interpret verse ten as meaning we are no longer to observe the righteous spirit of that law which was the word of God in the form of commandments even as Jesus said the words he spoke were spirit and life.

In verse 9 James is reminding them that even under the Royal Law if we show respect of persons we are convicted of that Old Law as transgressors.

James means that we should care enough to not let ourselves be convicted of transgressors of that Old Law even while under grace because it was God's grace the overlooked our sins under that Old Law for the purpose that he might teach us his righteousness whereby we no longer transgress that Old Law, even though we by grace are not subject to it's penalties.

Those commandments are indeed the word of God and to ignore or disrespect them is equal to not appreciating God's grace for it's purpose.

This goes back to what I told Barny about his applying words that are spoken to believers as though they apply only to those who are yet trying to be under that Old Law.

 

[Barny]

You may say, faith matters more than love. Yet Paul says...

1 Cor 13:13; But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Jn 3:14; We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1 Jn 3:15; Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 Jn 3:16; We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1 Jn 3:17; But whoever has the world’s good, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
1 Jn 3:18; Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth

Verses 17 and 18 above are remarkably similar to James 2.

James 2:15; If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
James 2:16; and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
James 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Hi B-A-C,

Regarding your first lengthy post I refer you to my past posts as the scriptures you refer to have been explained previously. Unfortunately I have limited time and am off to work soon.

I agree that James 2 is similar to 1John 3:17,18
What is this "world's good"?
It's Christ Jesus.

And those in need of clothing and food (1John 3:17,18.) is referring to the lost who are spiritually naked and hungry.

This is also confirmed by Matt 25 where the sheep and goats are separated.
The sheep are those who preached the gospel of Christ because they believe on Jesus and want to let their light (Christ in them) shine. The sheep are those who love and seek to help the spiritually hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, in prison, and "strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" (Eph 2:12).

 

[Barny]

According to Barny (and DHC), we do not need to keep the law at all

Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4

What RJ, DHC and myself have been saying is that our righteousness is not determined by works of the law, as scripture confirms
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4;5.

Our debates have always centered on salvation by grace verses the claims of you, James 1523 and Jehonedab that some minimum standard of obedience to the law is required to prove that we have righteousness and love.

And as for behavior/lifestyle that you always focus upon, all of us agree that Christians should love others and this be reflected in our behavior. Where we differ here is that you guys are determining righteousness by how well a Christian might obey the law.
.

In fact according to Barny, the only sin you can commit, is not having faith in Jesus.

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

,

I believe we can sin, and I believe there is grace when we do. However, that is quite different from saying I do not sin at all.

1 Jn 1:8; If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 Jn 1:10; If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

To "sin" means you are under the law and thus can be charged with sin/transgression of the law.
As whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
Those under the law are those who seek to establish righteousness by works of the law.

But Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
Hence nobody can charge Christians with anything, including sin, Rom 8:33.

As for your reference to 1John 1:8., if you read the context of that chapter from the beginning you'll see it's an evangelical context, declaring eternal life to the lost so that they too may have fellowship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

And also your misunderstanding of 1John 1:8-10. leaves you with the contradiction from 1John 3:6-9. which says Christians "cannot sin".

 

[B-A-C]

And those in need of clothing and food (1 John 3:17, 18) is referring to the lost who are spiritually naked and hungry.

I will say I am very skeptical of this statement, especially since verse 17 says...
1 Jn 3:17; But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1 Jn 3:17; But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

So are you saying the world's material goods are what satisfy our spiritual nakedness and hunger?

Also since James 2 is about faith and works, what are the works we can do to satisfy our neighbors spiritual thirst and hunger? How do we spiritually clothe them?

I would think that Jesus is the living water ( John 4:14; John 7:37-39; ) that causes us not to thirst again. - Not us.
I would think that Christians should be clothed in Christ. (Rom 13:14; Gal 3:26-27; ) - Not us.
I would think that Jesus is the bread of life. ( John 6:35; ) - Not us.
I would think that Jesus is the true vine and source of our spiritual nourishment, not other believers.

And also your misunderstanding of 1 John 1:8-10 leaves you with the contradiction from 1 John 3:6-9 which says Christians "cannot sin".

But of course, most of my Bibles don't say that.

(NIV) No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
(NASB) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot continue to sin, because he is born of God.
(Message) People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin.
(God's Word translation) Those who have been born from God don’t live sinful lives. What God has said lives in them, and they can’t live sinful lives. They have been born from God.
(AMP) No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [a]habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine *****, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.
(NLT) Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life[a] is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God.

 

[Jehonadab]

Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him"

Interesting all of Adams children were made in the same day he was.

 

[Barny]

But of course, most of my Bibles don't say that.

(NIV) No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
(NASB) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot continue to sin, because he is born of God.
(Message) People conceived and brought into life by God don’t make a practice of sin. How could they? God’s seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It’s not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin.
(God's Word translation) Those who have been born from God don’t live sinful lives. What God has said lives in them, and they can’t live sinful lives. They have been born from God.
(AMP) No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [a]habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine *****, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.
(NLT) Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life[a] is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God.

We see in the various Bible versions the following terms from 1John 3:9.
1: "cannot sin"
2: does not "practice sin"
3: cannot "continue to sin"

We both differ on how to understand this.
I see the above 3 examples do not contradict each other. They all mean the same thing.
Christians "cannot sin" says the same as we çannot "continue to sin" or "practice sin".

Consider the definition of "practice"
1:To do or perform habitually
2:To do or perform (something) repeatedly in order to acquire or polish a skill:
3:To give lessons or repeated instructions to; drill:
4: To work at, especially as a profession:
5:To carry out in action;

I see you prefer to follow definition No:1, which then contradicts others versions of the Bible which says Christians cannot sin.

I refer to definition No:5 which confirms other versions of the Bible that says Christians cannot sin.

Christians "cannot sin" means we cannot "continue to sin" or "practice sin" once we receive Christ.
Why?
Because once we receive Christ it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We see that Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4.
And since Christians are not under the law for righteousness (Rom 8:2, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.) then that means we cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law.
Remember that whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT, Rom 3:19.
Hence Christians cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law as we're not under the jurisdiction of the law. We "cannot sin" (1John 3:9.), we've "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1.).
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

But you, B-A-C, claim that the different Bible versions contradict each other and therefore you discard Bible translations (such as the KJV) because they contradict the doctrine you follow.

I suggest that rather than discarding Bible versions or any scripture that does not support the doctrine you follow, it would be better to rethink what you have been taught and consider that it's probably error doctrine.

 

[Barny]

I will say I am very skeptical of this statement, especially since verse 17 says...
1 Jn 3:17; But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1 Jn 3:17; But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

So are you saying the world's goods are what satisfy our spiritual nakedness and hunger?.

This "world's good" is Christ Jesus.
As I said before, Christians preach the gospel to the lost. In doing this we are helping the spiritually hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, in prison, and strangers so that they too might receive Christ.

But, your focus has always been on the physical, which has caused a misunderstanding of scriptures.
In regards to physical help to the physically needy, we all know that non-Christians provide such help to the needy as well. With this fact in mind then how would such physical good deeds differentiate a Christian from a non-christian?

Also since James 2 is about faith and works, what are the works we can do to satisfy our neighbors spiritual thirst and hunger? How do we spiritually clothe them?
.

As I said before, James 2 is similar to Matt 25 and 1John 3:17.

Consider the description offered in Matt 25:33-40
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Let's consider the spiritual message in Matt 25.
And remember that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1 Cor 2:14

What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
It's Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 10:3-4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: andthat Rock was Christ.

Who are those in spiritual prison?
It's those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's spiritually sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5-6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

And how are the spiritually naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

And who is the spiritual stranger?
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And in doing the works of believing in Jesus, John 6:29, Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.
Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works (believing in Jesus, John 6:29), and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Christians (the sheep) are saved by grace. And we show our faith by our works of believing on Jesus, John 6:29. And this includes letting our light shine, sharing the gospel to the spiritually hungry, spiritually naked, spiritual strangers, spiritually sick, those in spiritual prison.

So in answer to your question, we share the gospel with the lost so that any who receive Christ will be spiritually clothed with the robes of righteousness/garment of salvation.

We share the gospel with the lost so that the lost who were "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" may have opportunity to be "no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God"

We share the gospel with the lost who are spiritually hungry/thirsty due to the absence of Christ in their life.

Christians preaching the gospel to the lost are showing their faith, and love for others, by these works.

 

[Jehonadab]

You may say, faith matters more than love. Yet Paul says...

1 Cor 13:13; But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Jn 3:14; We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1 Jn 3:15; Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 Jn 3:16; We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1 Jn 3:17; But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
1 Jn 3:18; Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth

Verses 17 and 18 above are remarkably similar to James 2.

James 2:15; If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
James 2:16; and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
James 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Indeed, James could have very well said, "Faith without love is dead", and that in harmony with Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 13:1-4, and he he did say by inference in the context. The Royal Law James speaks of is the love that comes of God. And love is never a passive verb but always an active verb in scripture but where it is used as a noun denoting the character in a person. agape' = noun * agapao = active verb

The best guess I can find for love never occurring in the passive is that it has works or it is not.

No wonder, Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

 

[Jehonadab]

I am not trying to speak for Barny but, I think he would agree:

I can sum up all the above verses in the same way. Since we all obviously love Jesus, we want to all please him and we love and want to keep his commandments. We are again, obviously called to keep his commandments but that is not the issue....this is and I have brought it up on countless occassions but with no real response....here it is James 2:10.
We were not made to nor can we keep the law perfectly in this manner. If we could have in the Old testament there would have been no need for the "Day of Atonement"!
Let's all agree that the law is Holy, Blameles and Righteous and worhty to follow. I bet if we searched each others heart that we are keeping the "Law" most of the time, which is good. But, we must be honest and agree that we can not keep the law all the time perfectly. If we could there would be no need for Jesus.
I will take it a step further, even if we could keep the law without ever missing one element, we would still need Jesus, because no one comes unto the father unless he goes through Jesus.
So, lets all agree to keep the law as best as we can but, when we mess up, Jesus is right there to pick up the slack, just as if we never missed a thing!

Wouldn't you also agree that as we are to be lights to the world in the stead of Christ we ought to care how we explain that so that it does not seem like a mystery to them?

They are not like us and their minds do not work the same. So had we not ought to become all things to all people that they might be saved 1 Corinthians 9:22 (with the obvious exception of joining them in their evil as Paul indicated, 1 Corinthians 9:21), just as Paul showed us? Does that not mean speaking in ways they can better understand?

 

[RJ]

Wouldn't you also agree that as we are to be lights to the world in the stead of Christ we ought to care how we explain that so that it does not seem like a mystery to them?

They are not like us and their minds do not work the same. So had we not ought to become all things to all people that they might be saved 1 Corinthians 9:22 (with the obvious exception of joining them in their evil as Paul indicated, 1 Corinthians 9:21), just as Paul showed us? Does that not mean speaking in ways they can better understand?

• Wouldn't you also agree that as we are to be lights to the world in the stead of Christ we ought to care how we explain that so that it does not seem like a mystery to them? O.K., what does that have to do with what I had previously posted? Also, our testamony might help but I will leave it up to the Holy Spirit to solve the mystery of the scripture to folks, like he has me or if he wants to work through me.
• They are not like us and their minds do not work the same. So had we not ought to become all things to all people that they might be saved 1 Corinthians 9:22 (with the obvious exception of joining them in their evil as Paul indicated, 1 Corinthians 9:21), just as Paul showed us? Does that not mean speaking in ways they can better understand? O.K., I still don't know what your point is based on what I previously have said!

 

[Jehonadab]

• Wouldn't you also agree that as we are to be lights to the world in the stead of Christ we ought to care how we explain that so that it does not seem like a mystery to them? O.K., what does that have to do with what I had previously posted? Also, our testamony might help but I will leave it up to the Holy Spirit to solve the mystery of the scripture to folks, like he has me or if he wants to work through me.
• They are not like us and their minds do not work the same. So had we not ought to become all things to all people that they might be saved 1 Corinthians 9:22 (with the obvious exception of joining them in their evil as Paul indicated, 1 Corinthians 9:21), just as Paul showed us? Does that not mean speaking in ways they can better understand? O.K., I still don't know what your point is based on what I previously have said!

That is fine and dandy and there is nothing wrong at all with it if we look to Christ so as to understand God's love.

The lack of love in some would cause them to conclude that a person who had used firmness in his speech on behalf of love for another had violated Proverbs 10:12. But what do we find when we look at our greatest example of God's love, Jesus the man?

Matthew 16:23 "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

Are we to believe that Jesus became so stressed out there that he violated God's love? Many a non-believer thinks so. Are we like them?

Non-believers let themselves believe just enough to hate God. They do not see that God does as Paul said, Hebrews 12:5-8

Whom do you think God uses to do that among his children? Is it not Christ in us that he uses? Indeed if they do not respond to our chastising them out of love for them God chastises them in harsher ways, not because he does not love them but because he does.

My point is that we make a serious mistake if we see love as always only a soft and cushy thing, for it is not. It is not at all an easy thing for a brother to have to deliver a tougher form of God's love to his brother, but we must learn by the image of God in Christ to bear that image ourselves. We will only ever know a wimpy love apart from that. And that kind of love falls short of God's true love.


Such sensitivity is a serious matter as it lead to the killing of prophets.

 

[RJ]

That is fine and dandy and there is nothing wrong at all with it if we look to Christ so as to understand God's love.

The lack of love in some would cause them to conclude that a person who had used firmness in his speech on behalf of love for another had violated Proverbs 10:12. But what do we find when we look at our greatest example of God's love, Jesus the man?

Matthew 16:23 "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

Are we to believe that Jesus became so stressed out there that he violated God's love? Many a non-believer thinks so. Are we like them?

Non-believers let themselves believe just enough to hate God. They do not see that God does as Paul said, Hebrews 12:5-8

Whom do you think God uses to do that among his children? Is it not Christ in us that he uses? Indeed if they do not respond to our chastising them out of love for them God chastises them in harsher ways, not because he does not love them but because he does.

My point is that we make a serious mistake if we see love as always only a soft and cushy thing, for it is not. It is not at all an easy thing for a brother to have to deliver a tougher form of God's love to his brother, but we must learn by the image of God in Christ to bear that image ourselves. We will only ever know a wimpy love apart from that. And that kind of love falls short of God's true love.


Such sensitivity is a serious matter as it lead to the killing of prophets.

O.K.... but Jehonadab, why are you adressing these things to me! Maybe you should create a new Thread on this subject!

 

[Jehonadab]

O.K.... but Jehonadab, why are you adressing these things to me! Maybe you should create a new Thread on this subject!

Because in response to your saying, "Also, our testamony might help but I will leave it up to the Holy Spirit to solve the mystery of the scripture to folks, like
he has me or if he wants to work through me", it demonstrates how God's spirit works through us by Christ in us.

I see that there is a general lack of understanding among many as to how God's spirit does it's work, even to what that spirit is and how that spirit can be upon his spoken word so as to be life-giving.

You had stated previously, "We were not made to nor can we keep the law perfectly in this manner. If we could have in the Old testament there would have been no need for the "Day of Atonement"!

You said, "I bet if we searched each others heart that we are keeping the "Law" most of the time, which is good. But, we must be honest and agree that we can not keep the law all the time perfectly. If we could there would be no need for Jesus."

All of that thus far is bogus reasoning. It lacks the understanding that we need Jesus to fill the void of knowledge and wisdom that exists in our spirit due to Adam's corrupting his spirit away from God and to himself and Eve.

Then you said, "I will take it a step further, even if we could keep the law without ever missing one element, we would still need Jesus, because no one comes unto the father unless he goes through Jesus."

But you evidently have not considered why that is. That Jesus had to take the place of what we lost in Adam as I stated above. You have not understood Paul, here: Romans 10:5

As for the part where you said, "If we could there would be no need for Jesus", you are absolutely right that if Adam had not corrupted his knowledge and wisdom from God by drawing away from God then we would have not needed Jesus the man.

Drawing away from God is a big theme of scripture and that is because it is like disconnecting from our only source of knowledge and wisdom that is perfect and able to be blessed of God with life. That is why Jesus said his words were of the Father and that those words are spirit and they are life.

All through the OT we are given example after of example of not just Israel's drawing away from God but what made them draw away. And thus as Hosea said, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Hosea 4:6

He does not say they are destroyed because they have sin in them from birth which causes them not to be able to obey. He plainly said that it was because they rejected knowledge.

But some of you will not move forward to fully understanding that as you will imagine Hosea means the knowledge that Jesus Christ was the end of the Law.

Jesus Christ was the end of that Law because God knew they would reject that knowledge fed to them through God's prophets as they would not want to see those prophets as any different than themselves. And indeed that was why they lacked love for those prophets just as they lacked love for Jesus, so that they saw the loving chastisement of God through them as unloving and cold. That then is why they killed them.

 

[RJ]

Because in response to your saying, "Also, our testamony might help but I will leave it up to the Holy Spirit to solve the mystery of the scripture to folks, like
he has me or if he wants to work through me", it demonstrates how God's spirit works through us by Christ in us.

I see that there is a general lack of understanding among many as to how God's spirit does it's work, even to what that spirit is and how that spirit can be upon his spoken word so as to be life-giving.

You had stated previously, "We were not made to nor can we keep the law perfectly in this manner. If we could have in the Old testament there would have been no need for the "Day of Atonement"!

You said, "I bet if we searched each others heart that we are keeping the "Law" most of the time, which is good. But, we must be honest and agree that we can not keep the law all the time perfectly. If we could there would be no need for Jesus."

All of that thus far is bogus reasoning. It lacks the understanding that we need Jesus to fill the void of knowledge and wisdom that exists in our spirit due to Adam's corrupting his spirit away from God and to himself and Eve.

Then you said, "I will take it a step further, even if we could keep the law without ever missing one element, we would still need Jesus, because no one comes unto the father unless he goes through Jesus."

But you evidently have not considered why that is. That Jesus had to take the place of what we lost in Adam as I stated above. You have not understood Paul, here: Romans 10:5

As for the part where you said, "If we could there would be no need for Jesus", you are absolutely right that if Adam had not corrupted his knowledge and wisdom from God by drawing away from God then we would have not needed Jesus the man.

Drawing away from God is a big theme of scripture and that is because it is like disconnecting from our only source of knowledge and wisdom that is perfect and able to be blessed of God with life. That is why Jesus said his words were of the Father and that those words are spirit and they are life.

All through the OT we are given example after of example of not just Israel's drawing away from God but what made them draw away. And thus as Hosea said, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Hosea 4:6

He does not say they are destroyed because they have sin in them from birth which causes them not to be able to obey. He plainly said that it was because they rejected knowledge.

But some of you will not move forward to fully understanding that as you will imagine Hosea means the knowledge that Jesus Christ was the end of the Law.

Jesus Christ was the end of that Law because God knew they would reject that knowledge fed to them through God's prophets as they would not want to see those prophets as any different than themselves. And indeed that was why they lacked love for those prophets just as they lacked love for Jesus, so that they saw the loving chastisement of God through them as unloving and cold. That then is why they killed them.

I am afraid my friend that we have come to an impass. You are too far out there somewhere for me and I am done responding any more.
God's grace to you!

 

[Jehonadab]

I am afraid my friend that we have come to an impass. You are too far out there somewhere for me and I am done responding any more.
God's grace to you!

Fair enough

God loves you and so do I.