Is Repentance Necessary For Salvation?

[Jehonadab]

What you describe above is an ambiguous gospel. I've asked you if you can provide scripture giving specifics as such ambiguous doctrines gives no assurance.

BTW, "sinning WILLFULLY" as you describe, is a reference to Heb 10:26.
This scripture is actually referring to legalists who preach works of the law. It is they who make themselves sinners (Gal 2:18.) and any of them who had known Christ (the truth) beforehand (Heb 6:4-6) , have no more sacrifice for sins.

??

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

[RJ]

Amen, not just these two.

In Hebrews 11; we see Noah did the works of building an ark in addition to his faith.
Rahab did the works of hiding the spies in addition to her faith
Abraham did the works of traveling to the promised land in addition to his faith
Abraham was about to sacrifice up his son in addition to his faith
Moses did the works of giving up an Egyptian inheritance in order to receive a Hebrew inheritance in addition to his faith.

How many times in the New Testament are the apostles called fellow workers? God does not want (wicked and) lazy servants.
How many times in the New Testament does Jesus criticize those who are doing nothing for the kingdom of God?

We live under the New Covenant not the old! Maybe some, but in most ways, God's deals with us in an entirely different manner now than in the Old Testament..
All this talk and agreement about "works" is good but the discussion of works after salvation is of any value.
So, therefore, we all should agree that, under this new contract with God, the only works that God will accept, are works through the vine, from the Spirit and only after salvation. Works prior to salvation are meaningless! Ephesians 2:8; John 15:5, James 2:17 and James 2:26

 

[Jehonadab]

Question:

What is this power Paul here speaks of?

2 Timothy 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

Might it have anything to do with this: Romans 16:26 "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.."

1 Thessalonians 1:3 "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father"

See 1 Thess 1:3 here --->Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

 

[Barny]

Don't listen to me; listen to James: James 2:19-20 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

You misunderstand this verse.
It says the "devils also believe" "there is one God".

But what does the devil/the father of lies also do in rebellion against the one God they recognize?
1John 2:22
Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

Interestingly the legalists (Pharisees) that Jesus rebuked in John 8:44. were told that they were of their father, the devil.
These legalists denied that Jesus was the Christ. They would not submit to God's righteousness and went about to establish their own righteousness by works of the law, Rom 10:4. They were into spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

Sadly even today we see a similar set of legalists about but they preach a lukewarm mix of works of the law with grace. And we all know that we cannot mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6.

BUT, Christians however, have submitted to God's righteousness.
We believe that Jesus is the Christ.
We obey God's will to believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
We also let our light (Christ in us) shine by confessing Christ before others by preaching the gospel of Christ to the lost who are the spiritually hungry, thirsty, naked, strangers, sick, and in prison. We show our faith by these works of believing on Jesus, preaching the gospel.

Listen to Jesus: John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

Again you misunderstand this verse.
For context note John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

Note also Matt 12:37
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Christians confess Jesus before man. We preach the gospel (words/works) to spiritually provide for the spiritually hungry, spiritually thirsty, spiritually naked, spiritually sick, those in spiritual prison, and spiritual strangers. In others words we let our light shine and preach the gospel of Christ to the lost.

In these works of believing on Jesus that shows our faith, we see these works also manifest by our not lusting after Hagar/righteousness by works of the law. Christians do not mix works of the law with grace, as that would be spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar.

God's will is that we abstain from spiritual sexual immorality with Hagar, 1Thess 4:3

 

[DHC]

There is a visible aspect and an invisible aspect to everything. The necessity for both visible and invisible aspects is the reason why we don't take invisible bread and wine at communion and don't baptize in invisible water, or attend invisible church. Belief without obedience is impractical. Repentance without fruit is impractical and not genuine. True repentance results in the associated fruit/actions: Matt 3:8 Produce fruit that is consistent with repentance!


That a justifying faith cannot be without works, is shown from two examples, Abraham and Rahab. Faith is the cause, obedience is the outcome. The Bible says we are justified by both, not by one or the other alone (James 2:24). Abraham was justified because he believed God, and he offered up Isaac as an act of obedience resulting from his belief. Belief in the heart will justify our person, and our obedience will justify our outward actions - James 2:24 - You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. When the apostle Paul speaks of faith, he is speaking of genuine faith that is shown by its fruits (love, joy, peace etc), a faith which establishes the law, and does not disobey it:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of no effect through faith? Absolutely not! Rather, we establish the law.

Saved by faith and works together?

We must be very careful in the way we read the scripture. Our doctrine must
be clear and precise, our doctrine must be the doctrine that the apostles taught.
There is no room for variance or disagreement on the primary doctrines of the
scripture.

Some folk on TalkJesus have claimed that we are saved by faith and works together.
These folk claim that faith must be combined with the works of the law to achieve
salvation. This view is not supported by the scripture and arises from combining
the Old Covenant with the New Covenant.

I will demonstrate that faith and legal works together is not what the scripture
teaches. Here is a verse from Paul's letter to the Ephesians that clearly shows
that both faith and works combined together is contrary to the scripture.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves,
it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For
we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God
prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are saved by Grace! We are saved by Grace through faith! This salvation
does not emanate from our works or obedience to the law and faith. Read line nine
again carefully, "not as a result of works". This means both legal works and any other
works do not contribute to this reconciliation in Jesus Christ. Salvation is solely
attributed to the work and power of Jesus Christ at Calvary. Hence the importance
is placed on the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not on the combination of man's efforts
married to the work of Jesus Christ.

Where the confusion arises is in the failure to understand that the good works result
from the belief in the Gospel. In other words the good works are the fruit of the
Holy Spirit. Believing in Jesus is step one and this enables salvation. Step two requires
obedience to Jesus which comes from the interaction with the Holy Spirit. Step
two produces the fruit of the Spirit. Step two follows from step one.

I repeat that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is by Grace and not by faith and works
combined. Faith will spark spiritual works but the faith is a gift and so is the
reconciliation in Christ. Thus the Holy Spirit enables love to grow within the
body of Christ.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.

 

[Jehonadab]

No Barney, you misunderstand.

That they all knew the kind of direct belief the demons had is because they see God (or saw him) up close and in person.

Yet, even though they therefore no doubt believed God was real their kind of belief did not motivate obedience from them.

And as they all knew that, they also knew that faith apart from works is but a lie.

Review my post 103.

 

[Barny]

I agree, It is obvious that belief alone isn't enough, obedience is required.

Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.

Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

Your focus on the physical is blinding you to the bigger spiritual picture.
I have already explained to you the spiritual meaning of this verse you quote, yet you continue with your desire to be under the law for righteousness by works of the law.

Believing alone isn't enough.

Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15; If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16; and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

And the charge of "LAWLESSNESS" applies to those under the law because whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT, Rom 3:19.

Christians are NOT under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

Luke 3:8; "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

Fruits in keeping with repentance is having Christ is us, the firstfruits 1Cor 15:20
in other words believe on Jesus and do not lust after Hagar/righteousness by works of the law (which are dead works)

 

[Jehonadab]

And now Barny in your post 107 you apply words Jesus clearly said apply "on that day" after the New Covenant was already active they would yet be judged for their works of lawlessness.

All Christians will also. You are setting up some crazy system that excuses sin in one and not in the other.

The same with having no works (bearing no fruit) the context is all the way unto the day of judgment.

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Grace does not cancel that out, Barny.

Grace blesses faith which works by love and the more one has been given the more will be demanded of him.

 

[Barny]

Question:

What is this power Paul here speaks of?

2 Timothy 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

Might it have anything to do with this: Romans 16:26 "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.."

1 Thessalonians 1:3 "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father"

See 1 Thess 1:3 here --->Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Firstly, for context, what is "godliness"?
1Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

1Tim 4:8 .
godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

Godliness speaks of having Christ in us, which we have when we believe on Jesus.

And what is this power in godliness that you ask about?
Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29
And thus Christians let there light (Christ in us) shine and preach the gospel to provide for the spiritually hungry/thirsty, spiritually naked, spiritually sick, spiritual strangers,and those in spiritual prison.

 

[Jehonadab]

Firstly, for context, what is "godliness"?
1Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

1Tim 4:8 .
godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

Godliness speaks of having Christ in us, which we have when we believe on Jesus.

And what is this power in godliness that you ask about?
Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of Godto salvation for everyone who believes,

Our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29
And thus Christians let there light (Christ in us) shine and preach the gospel to provide for the spiritually hungry/thirsty, spiritually naked, spiritually sick, spiritual strangers,and those in spiritual prison.

I apologize for upsetting you.

I will back off a while and give you room to think.

 

[Barny]

And now Barny in your post 107 you apply words Jesus clearly said apply "on that day" after the New Covenant was already active they would yet be judged for their works of lawlessness.

All Christians will also. You are setting up some crazy system that excuses sin in one and not in the other.

The same with having no works (bearing no fruit) the context is all the way unto the day of judgment.

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Grace does not cancel that out, Barny.

Grace blesses faith which works by love and the more one has been given the more will be demanded of him.

On the judgement day we will be judged on whether we did good or bad.

Good = believe on Jesus.

Bad = unbelief, which also manifests itself as lusting after Hagar as that would be lukewarm.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

I've come across similar doctrine to what you are preaching.
It offers a facade of love, but at it's core is the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law, which is sexual immorality with Hagar.

Contrary to the doctrine you follow, we see that Christians do love one another, as Jesus commanded.
hence we do not preach the law as a measure of ones righteousness.
We believe on Jesus and thus our faith is counted for righteousness. And we preach this gospel to the lost.
And should anyone do any wrong we show the same love/grace God showed us. We forgive 7x70.

 

[RJ]

Question:

What is this power Paul here speaks of?

2 Timothy 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

I guess your talking to me.
I will answer you but I am positive it won't fit your theology!
Are you denying the scriptures in post # 102 ?
I am answering your question, why don't you follow with the same courtesey and give me your interpretation of the four scriptures in post # 102
Paul's power:
It doesn't say what you assumes it does.
The answer is in the last clause of the verse: "from such turn away"
A Christian has the Holy spirit in them and a sign that they are a true believer. There are many Christians in name only and Paul describes them here as " having a form of godliness", meaning only the appearance of being a Christian and these are the types of so called Christians that fall away; they are not true believers. The Christian has the power of the spirit foremost as evident by their belief and faith. This "power" that Paul uses does not mean the power full power of Christ and therefore you can be perfect. A true Christian only has the "first fruit" of the Holy Spirit and only wait for or final perfection...Romans 8:23

 

[Barny]

I apologize for upsetting you.

I will back off a while and give you room to think.

Huh???
Not sure where you get the idea that I was upset.

Whilst we share on scripture on forums, it's the Spirit within us that gives us the understanding.
I pray one day your eyes will be opened.

Anyway, I'm off to work now so you can debate with others if you wish.

 

[DHC]

Question:

What is this power Paul here speaks of?

2 Timothy 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

Might it have anything to do with this: Romans 16:26 "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.."

1 Thessalonians 1:3 "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father"

See 1 Thess 1:3 here --->Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Hello Jehonadab.

You asked a very important question, a question that I am eager to answer.

What is this power Paul here speaks of?
2 Timothy 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

Here are some verses that more fully describe the 'power' of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 4:14
And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit.

Luke 4:36
...for with authority and power He commands the unclean spirits and they come out.

Luke 5:17
...and the power of the Lord was present for Him to perform healing.

Luke 6:19
And all the people were trying to touch Him, for power was coming from Him and healing them all.

Luke 9:1
And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and
to heal diseases.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline!!!

2 Timothy 3:5
holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power;

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power!!!

Ephesians 3:16
that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power
through His Spirit in the inner man,

You said,

Might it have anything to do with this: Romans 16:26 "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets,
according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.."

Your answer is only one aspect of the full power of the Holy Spirit! If you truly walk
as Jesus walked then the full power of the Holy Spirit will be evident. Christianity is
not some intellectual exercise in doctrine. Christianity is the Holy Spirit working through
us to deliver us from evil and much, much more. In all the gifts of the Holy Spirit and in the
constant miracles that the Holy Spirit delivers. The power of the Holy Spirit will be evident
in any Christian's life. All the Gifts of the Holy Spirit must be evident within the congregation.
All the scripture is inspired by God!

Do not reduce or deny the power of the Holy Spirit!

 

[Jehonadab]

Huh???
Not sure where you get the idea that I was upset.

Whilst we share on scripture on forums, it's the Spirit within us that gives us the understanding.
I pray one day your eyes will be opened.

Anyway, I'm off to work now so you can debate with others if you wish.

Isn't large print screaming? That is the way I was taught concerning this type of correspondence. Sorry if I was wrong.

 

[Jehonadab]

Hello Jehonadab.

You asked a very important question, a question that I am eager to answer.



Here are some verses that more fully describe the 'power' of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 4:14
And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit.

Luke 4:36
...for with authority and power He commands the unclean spirits and they come out.

Luke 5:17
...and the power of the Lord was present for Him to perform healing.

Luke 6:19
And all the people were trying to touch Him, for power was coming from Him and healing them all.

Luke 9:1
And He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all the demons and
to heal diseases.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline!!!

2 Timothy 3:5
holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power;

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power!!!

Ephesians 3:16
that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power
through His Spirit in the inner man,

You said,

Your answer is only one aspect of the full power of the Holy Spirit! If you truly walk
as Jesus walked then the full power of the Holy Spirit will be evident. Christianity is
not some intellectual exercise in doctrine. Christianity is the Holy Spirit working through
us to deliver us from evil and much, much more. In all the gifts of the Holy Spirit and in the
constant miracles that the Holy Spirit delivers. The power of the Holy Spirit will be evident
in any Christian's life. All the Gifts of the Holy Spirit must be evident within the congregation.
All the scripture is inspired by God!

Do not reduce or deny the power of the Holy Spirit!

Thus far I have not given my answer.

What I have given is piece-meal so as to feel the views in the room out.

Are you one that believes Paul meant godliness is a mystery to Christians? It seems perhaps Barny is or he would know what that mystery is.

 

[Jehonadab]

Question:

What is this power Paul here speaks of?

2 Timothy 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

I guess your talking to me.
I will answer you but I am positive it won't fit your theology!
Are you denying the scriptures in post # 102 ?
I am answering your question, why don't you follow with the same courtesey and give me your interpretation of the four scriptures in post # 102
Paul's power:
It doesn't say what you assumes it does.
The answer is in the last clause of the verse: "from such turn away"
A Christian has the Holy spirit in them and a sign that they are a true believer. There are many Christians in name only and Paul describes them here as " having a form of godliness", meaning only the appearance of being a Christian and these are the types of so called Christians that fall away; they are not true believers. The Christian has the power of the spirit foremost as evident by their belief and faith. This "power" that Paul uses does not mean the power full power of Christ and therefore you can be perfect. A true Christian only has the "first fruit" of the Holy Spirit and only wait for or final perfection...Romans 8:23

That is fair enough. What do you assume I assume about 2 Timothy 3:5?

 

[Jehonadab]

Let me give you just a bit to chew on if you get tired of chewing on me.

What is that mystery of godliness Paul speaks of ? Who is it a mystery to? Why is it a mystery to them?


Jude 1:10 “But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves”


1 Peter 4:3 “For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you..”


(Bible in Basic English) 1 Peter 4:4 “And they are wondering that you no longer go with them in this violent wasting of life, and are saying evil things of you..”


(Weymouth New Testament) 4 “At this they are astonished -- that you do not run into the same excess of profligacy as they do; and they speak abusively of you.”


It is a mystery to the ones not holding the faith in a pure conscience, such as those whom Paul speaks of at 2 Timothy 3:3-5.


1 Timothy 3:9 “Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.” That is what Paul refers to as the mystery to those without faith and even to those with a false faith like as at 2 Timothy 3:5. It is God's wisdom which is what Christ became to us. Christ's righteousness is God's wisdom which he lives by through it's spirit.


Ponder the following and prove it to yourself:


1 Peter 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.”


1 Corinthians 2:7 “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”


Ephesians 3:4 “Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”


Romans 1:17 “For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”


Galatians 3:23 “But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.”

1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

 

[Jehonadab]

On the judgement day we will be judged on whether we did good or bad.

Good = believe on Jesus.

Bad = unbelief, which also manifests itself as lusting after Hagar as that would be lukewarm.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

I've come across similar doctrine to what you are preaching.
It offers a facade of love, but at it's core is the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law, which is sexual immorality with Hagar.

Contrary to the doctrine you follow, we see that Christians do love one another, as Jesus commanded.
hence we do not preach the law as a measure of ones righteousness.
We believe on Jesus and thus our faith is counted for righteousness. And we preach this gospel to the lost.
And should anyone do any wrong we show the same love/grace God showed us. We forgive 7x70.

How is it that you think my saying we must obey God and keep his commandments is now outdated? Christ never said that. Paul never said that. Peter never said that. James nor Jude ever said that and Matthew, Mark, Luke nor John ever said that. You can find places where they said just the opposite if you really wanted to.

I mean, look at the scripture you give here above. It does not say that but by your reading it into it and by your reading it into it you cause it to contradict other statements the writer made in that letter and in other of his letters.

If that is what you are content with then all you need do is say so and I will not fret. That is your right.

 

[james1523]

Saved by faith and works together?

We must be very careful in the way we read the scripture. Our doctrine must
be clear and precise, our doctrine must be the doctrine that the apostles taught.
There is no room for variance or disagreement on the primary doctrines of the
scripture.

Some folk on TalkJesus have claimed that we are saved by faith and works together.
These folk claim that faith must be combined with the works of the law to achieve
salvation. This view is not supported by the scripture and arises from combining
the Old Covenant with the New Covenant.

I will demonstrate that faith and legal works together is not what the scripture
teaches. Here is a verse from Paul's letter to the Ephesians that clearly shows
that both faith and works combined together is contrary to the scripture.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves,
it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For
we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God
prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are saved by Grace! We are saved by Grace through faith! This salvation
does not emanate from our works or obedience to the law and faith. Read line nine
again carefully, "not as a result of works". This means both legal works and any other
works do not contribute to this reconciliation in Jesus Christ. Salvation is solely
attributed to the work and power of Jesus Christ at Calvary. Hence the importance
is placed on the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not on the combination of man's efforts
married to the work of Jesus Christ.

Where the confusion arises is in the failure to understand that the good works result
from the belief in the Gospel. In other words the good works are the fruit of the
Holy Spirit. Believing in Jesus is step one and this enables salvation. Step two requires
obedience to Jesus which comes from the interaction with the Holy Spirit. Step
two produces the fruit of the Spirit. Step two follows from step one.

I repeat that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is by Grace and not by faith and works
combined. Faith will spark spiritual works but the faith is a gift and so is the
reconciliation in Christ. Thus the Holy Spirit enables love to grow within the
body of Christ.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.

James 2:24 clearly says we are not justified by faith alone. Neither is there any contradiction with Paul's writings. A living tree brings forth fruit. Being justified by works is not inconsistent with being justified by faith. Faith is the cause, works is the outcome and proof.