Is Rapture going to happen Before the Tribulation or After?

[norapture]

No where does it say when Jesus and many of the saints that got up was the first resurrection
No where does it say the resurrection happens in phases
No where does it say, the the one taken out of the way is the Holy Ghost
No where does it say Jesus when to hell and preached.
Matter of fact the part that would not see corruption, was his body, and we know where his body was

And far as harvest goes Jesus talk about the harvest, and said let the tares and wheat grow together till the time of the harvest.
Then he tells the time of the harvest, its the end of the world.
Jesus also said All them the farther has giving him, he would lose none, but raise up at the last day.
And when Jesus raised Lazarus, Martha said I know he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST day
And when Jesus spoke about his coming, one first things he said, was take he that no man deceive you
And he told of his coming, and never said he was coming back, till after the tribulation.
He never spoke of a rapture, but of things that happen at his coming.
He also said behold, I have foretold you all things
Now if he foretold us all things, why didn't he tell us he was coming back before the tribulation

 

[Dovegiven]

No where does it say when Jesus and many of the saints that got up was the first resurrection
No where does it say the resurrection happens in phases
No where does it say, the the one taken out of the way is the Holy Ghost
No where does it say Jesus when to hell and preached.
Matter of fact the part that would not see corruption, was his body, and we know where his body was

And far as harvest goes Jesus talk about the harvest, and said let the tares and wheat grow together till the time of the harvest.
Then he tells the time of the harvest, its the end of the world.
Jesus also said All them the farther has giving him, he would lose none, but raise up at the last day.
And when Jesus raised Lazarus, Martha said I know he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST day
And when Jesus spoke about his coming, one first things he said, was take he that no man deceive you
And he told of his coming, and never said he was coming back, till after the tribulation.
He never spoke of a rapture, but of things that happen at his coming.
He also said behold, I have foretold you all things
Now if he foretold us all things, why didn't he tell us he was coming back before the tribulation

Have you considered that in Revelation 19 Jesus and his armies of saints ride down to earth together, all eyes seeing and hearing them? There is no mention of anyone going up in the air to meet him, then coming back down. The whole world will witness his great and noisy coming, and weep.
But in other places in scriptures there is an event the whole world will not have a clue what happened, a mystery, a happening that is like a thief coming in the night, some caught up into the air to be with Jesus, others left on earth. No thief comes blowing a horn while we sleep.

I realize this is a hotly debated topic, so I ought to leave what I've already written stand as my position, which by the way was given with scriptures and well within context of their whole chapters. Questions amounting to simple denials are pretty lame points. You need to present a position based on use of scriptures, else it's all but personal opinion without basis. But as time permits I'll consider taking my position deeper, not assuming readers go check out what the Bible says.

 

[Travis]

No freedom from day to day tribulation in our life but freedom from the "Great Tribulation", absolutely!:thumbsup:

Chapter and verse on that one?

 

[RJ]

Chapter and verse on that one?

Which one? The trials and tribulations that Jesus said we will have, or the Great Tribulation?

 

[Travis]

Which one? The trials and tribulations that Jesus said we will have, or the Great Tribulation?

The great tribulation.

 

[RJ]

The great tribulation.

That is easy, I believe in Pre-tribulation rapture or gathering of Christ's church: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

[norapture]

Have you considered that in Revelation 19 Jesus and his armies of saints ride down to earth together, all eyes seeing and hearing them? There is no mention of anyone going up in the air to meet him, then coming back down. The whole world will witness his great and noisy coming, and weep.
But in other places in scriptures there is an event the whole world will not have a clue what happened, a mystery, a happening that is like a thief coming in the night, some caught up into the air to be with Jesus, others left on earth. No thief comes blowing a horn while we sleep.



I realize this is a hotly debated topic, so I ought to leave what I've already written stand as my position, which by the way was given with scriptures and well within context of their whole chapters. Questions amounting to simple denials are pretty lame points. You need to present a position based on use of scriptures, else it's all but personal opinion without basis. But as time permits I'll consider taking my position deeper, not assuming readers go check out what the Bible says.

Have you considered in Revelation7:13-15
These came out of great tribulation
Also Revelation 20:4
These went threw the tribulation

Now with that in mine, Zechariah 14:5
Says ALL the saints come with him
So like you said Revelation 19 doesn't mention , no one going up
That tell me Revelation 19 just didn't give all the detail, this why we search the scriptures, line upon line, precept upon precept

But just for the record 1Thessalonians 4: 13-17
And you mite want to consider this
Did not mention the saints, going on to heaven for 7 years
But it sure is taught that's what happens,
in these verse

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Eric how does a man, that does not have the Holy Ghost, not take the mark, or worship the beast?
By his on power?
Even Peter denied the Lord 3 times, before he got the Holy Ghost.
So what keeps those in Revelation 20 from worshiping the beast , so much they will die first.
Nowhere in scripture, does it say the Holy Ghost goes to heaven.
Do you not no that the Holy Ghost , is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
And Jesus Christ said in Matthew, I will be with you even until , the END of the WORLD

John 16:7-8 The Holy Spirit could not come down from heaven till Jesus went up to heaven. When we are caught up to Jesus in the air the Holy Spirit will go with us.

In the Old Testament did not enter the people that got saved. It will be like that again.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Dove may I ask which resurrection, that you will be raised at, if you die before the Lord returns?
Cause in Revelation 20:4
It says the ones that was beheaded, cause they didn't
worship the beast, neither his image, neither received his mark
Lived and reigned with Christ a
1000 years
Verse 5 says that this is the first resurrection
Verse 6 says Blessed and holy is
he that has part in the first
resurrection, that they reign with
him 1000 years

Sounds like to me these in verse 4
Went threw the tribulation, and
didn't worship the beast, and some
got beheaded(killed) but got
resurrected in the first
resurrection.
And if this is the first resurrection, which according to scripture it is.
How does all believers get
resurrected, before the first
resurrection?

Consider this:

The Five Phases of the First Resurrection

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8 KJV

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power by God. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12 KJV,


(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14 KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4 KJV

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4 KJV


(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15 KJV




Ephesians 4:8-10

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)



I believe these verses indicate that Jesus took the Old Testament saints to heaven when he went back.



What is your opinion?

 

[norapture]

John 16:7-8 The Holy Spirit could not come down from heaven till Jesus went up to heaven. When we are caught up to Jesus in the air the Holy Spirit will go with us.

In the Old Testament did not enter the people that got saved. It will be like that again.

Eric just to keep this simple, show me the scripture, that say the Holy Ghost goes to heaven.
Without reading into it
Line upon line , precept upon precept

 

[norapture]

Consider this:

The Five Phases of the First Resurrection

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8 KJV

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power by God. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12 KJV,


(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14 KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4 KJV

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4 KJV


(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15 KJV




Ephesians 4:8-10

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)



I believe these verses indicate that Jesus took the Old Testament saints to heaven when he went back.



What is your opinion?

Hear in what I believe , that the saints that got out of the grave, after Jesus, went on to heaven.
That these are the firstfruits, that were redeemed from among men.
This is the 144000 in Revelation, and John talk about seeing them 144000, this was the first covenant, then after that he seen a multitude no man could number, this is the second covenant, of all nations.

I believe if you believe Pre-trip
Then you have and multiple, raptures, multiple resurrections , and multiple comings.

I believe Jesus said the harvest is the end of the world, that he said let the tares and wheat grow together, till the harvest.
So I will not separate the tares and wheat with a rapture.
I believe Jesus never said , he was coming back before the tribulation
but immediately, after

 

[Dovegiven]

John 16:7-8 The Holy Spirit could not come down from heaven till Jesus went up to heaven. When we are caught up to Jesus in the air the Holy Spirit will go with us.

In the Old Testament did not enter the people that got saved. It will be like that again.

I am convinced greater use of context assures doctrinal safety.
The Holy Spirit has been over and on earth since Genesis 1. He has been quite active among men, having particular ministry actions mostly one person at a time, Here's an example:
Exodus 35:30-33 (KJV)
30 And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
32 And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
33 And in the cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work.

You'll remember this one:
1 Samuel 16:13-14 (KJV)
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

There is no mention in scriptures that the Holy Spirit left earth after OT times. He filled Elizabeth and John when she visited with Mary, and manifested visibly at Jesus' baptism, etc. He had enough limit on ministry to allow the Torah to reign as commanded by God, not interfering with that, but did fill people and give gifts, like the Spirit of the Lord giving Samson his strength.
With what appears to be a non-stop residency on earth, what did Jesus mean in
John 16:7-8 (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

I believe the scriptures are true that when Jesus returned to Heaven he directed the Holy Spirit to administer the New Covenant among us instead of guarding the Old Covenant, ministering to sinners and saved alike.

Who then must leave earth to allow Antichrist to rule at the end without interference from God? Well, since many people will refuse to worship the Beast, at the cost of their heads, those who call upon the name of Jesus in those days will be saved. The New Covenant will nto be removed from earth since it is eternal, unmovable, permanent. The Holy Spirit will presidee over it through thick and thin, even after the true Church has been raptured out. But witness of the Covenant doesn't disappear. I believe this will continue on earth and in heaven without end:
1 John 5:6-9 (KJV)
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Yet, Satan's unholy 'trinity' will be allowed full control, ruling like what we're reading about from Iraq. Believing on Jesus will be possible, but with ultimate persecution. I have no doubt they will allow one believer to live, searching all out and beheading them, the ones they miss starving due to not taking the mark of the Beast, without which they cannot buy or sell. The plagues will destroy the food supply anyway.

Government can't be what leaves, as the Antichrist will exercise his government. All that's left that has enough influence to inhibit his rise to power is the Church. The Church must be removed to open the earth up to free reign of Satan.

 

[Dovegiven]

Hear in what I believe , that the saints that got out of the grave, after Jesus, went on to heaven.
That these are the firstfruits, that were redeemed from among men.
This is the 144000 in Revelation, and John talk about seeing them 144000, this was the first covenant, then after that he seen a multitude no man could number, this is the second covenant, of all nations.

I believe if you believe Pre-trip
Then you have and multiple, raptures, multiple resurrections , and multiple comings.

I believe Jesus said the harvest is the end of the world, that he said let the tares and wheat grow together, till the harvest.
So I will not separate the tares and wheat with a rapture.
I believe Jesus never said , he was coming back before the tribulation
but immediately, after

Jesus told his disciples how it would happen, comparing the plan to Noah. Matthew 24:37-39 (KJV)
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

To realize the significance of that statement it is wise to read the whole chapter. Noah and family were not part of the tribulation below, which was entirely outside the ark. They were taken to safety before the flood came, not after it came and finished. They set foot on earth only after the flood drained off. The world of air breathing creation realized as they were drowning they had missed the boat. That's just one evidence of a pre-trib rapture. It didn't require Jesus to come down onto the planet. Neither will Jesus set foot on earth when he presides over collecting his harvest, but will let the angels bring all his saints dead and still alive to him in the "air", instantly converted into bodies like he has people without blood that can't die.

 

[norapture]

Jesus told his disciples how it would happen, comparing to Noah. Matthew 24:37-39 (KJV)
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

To realize the significance of that statement it is wise to read the whole chapter. Noah and family were not part of the tribulation below, which was entirely outside the ark. They were taken to safety before the flood came, not after it came and finished. They set foot on earth only after the flood drained off. The world of air breathing creation realized as they were drowning they had missed the boat. That's just one evidence of a pre-trib rapture. It didn't require Jesus to come down onto the planet. Neither will Jesus set foot on earth when he presides over collecting his harvest, but will let the angels bring all his saints dead and still alive to him in the "air", instantly converted into bodies like he has people without blood that can't die.

Dove if we read the whole chapter ,
then it comes very clear , when he
is coming back.
Matthew 24:29&30
Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
30 AND THEN SHALL APPEAR the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and THEN shall all the tribes of theearth mourn, and they shall see
the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
See Dove you tried to use Noe and the ark to say he was coming before tribulation.
But Jesus makes it very clear in verse 29 when he is coming.
So why say before tribulation when Jesus said immediately after
tribulation
If you read all scripture about his coming , and reference to Noe, you would see he means same day
As in one day his wrath comes, the same day the church is caught up his wrath falls in one day
There is a difference in wrath and tribulation.
Luke 17:26-30 And as it was in the days of Noe , so shall it be also in the days if the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they
married wives, they were giving in
marriage, until THE DAY that Noe
entered the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them ALL.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot, they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they build.
29 BUT THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them ALL.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is REVEALED.

 

[Ezra Allen]

The Rapture happens before the tribulation. God has a purpose behind everything he does. He also has a timeline of when things are going to happen. God through scripture provides us with insights regarding this topic. In the New Testament the church is clearly portrayed as different from Israel (see Romans 9:6; 1 Corinthians 10:32; Hebrews 12:22-24) The church is the invisible spiritual body of Christ (Ephesians 1:3). Israel is the center of Christs political reign during the Millennial Kingdom Age (Exodus 19:5-6). The Church could not exist in the Old Testament as it is built on the foundation of Christ's resurrection (Ephesians 19:19-20).

A number a things must happen before the Tribulation which is just a pause in the grand history that is still to come for us. Israel must be reborn as a nation (Ezekiel 36-37) , on May 14, 1948 Israel began to govern herself as a nation. Something she has not done since before 70AD.

Apostasy Increases (1 Timothy 12:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Timothy 3:1-8).

The Church is Raptured (John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) A generation of Christians will not pass through death's door. They will be here one minute and gone the next (don't believe current pop culture clothes also gone in a twinkling of the eye). Imagine what this would do to the North and South America's with it's high concentration of Christians, something this catastrophic would allow the next stage of God's Plan of the Ages to unfold.

Israel is invaded by a Northern Military Coalition (Ezekiel 38-39). It's goal will be to utterly obliterate the Jews (After Rapture many Jews will exodus to safer ground around Israel). This assault force composed of modern day Russia, Iran, Turkey, Sudan, Libya, and others it will be stopped by God. This alignment of these nations is happening today as these nations are predominantly Muslim. In Ezekiel's day this didn't make sense because Islam did not yet exist. This force will face a fourfold judgement from God in the form of an earthquake (Ezekiel 38:19-20), Infighting among themselves (Ezekiel 38:21), disease (Ezekiel 38:22), Torrential rains, hailstones, fire and burning sulfur (Ezekiel 38:22).

Israel starts rebuilding Temple Mount after Israel buries the enemy bodies and gathers and destroys the enemy's weapons. During this time is when the Antichrist comes into power over a newly rebuilt Rome centered power. Signing a covenant with Israel.

When he comes into power is when the tribulation starts. 3 and a half years later he breaks his covenant and takes over Jerusalem. The Jewish Remnant flees. Then Satan makes war upon the Tribulation saints. The Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 24:14) is preached.

Antichrist moves south against the remnant.

The Jewish remnant accept Jesus and Christ returns in Glory to rescue his people from danger.

Christ victoriously Ascends to the Mount of Olives.

75 day transitional period (Daniel 12:11-12) during which The Nations are judged, The Jews are judged, The Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place.

The 1,000 year (plus) Millennial Kingdom Christ reigns upon Earth.

Earth ends.

 

[norapture]

(((((((((The Church is Raptured (John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) A generation of Christians will not pass through death's door. They will be here one minute and gone the next (don't believe current pop culture clothes also gone in a twinkling of the eye). Imagine what this would do to the North and South America's with it's high concentration of Christians, something this catastrophic would allow the next stage of God's Plan of the Ages to unfold.))))))))))))


Ezra these 3 scripture you give above , that you say is the rapture.
Why couldn't these take place at his coming, or to say 2nd coming.
Because if this isn't after the tribulation, that would mean he is coming back 2 more times
One at the rapture before
tribulation, which would be his 2nd coming.
Then one after tribulation, which would be his 3rd coming .
Because he has already came once, which was his 1st coming.
But in all truth the scriptures, doesn't say anything about a 3rd coming, and Jesus never said he was coming back before the tribulation.
There is many things that take place at his coming, and all threw scripture it gives different details
But nowhere in scripture , does it say before tribulation, only before wrath.

 

[just-a-servant]

Sorry, I hit the wrong button and posted a reply before I was done writing it. I erased the content and started over - I will finish it then repost.

just-a-servant

 

[Aenon]

I can't seem to find the option to choose "The rapture doesn't exist." The modern notion of the rapture was invented by John Nelson Darby. It is a misinterpretation of the ancient concept of the general resurrection of the dead on the last day, which begins the process of glorification/deification.

 

[Travis]

I can't seem to find the option to choose "The rapture doesn't exist." The modern notion of the rapture was invented by John Nelson Darby. It is a misinterpretation of the ancient concept of the general resurrection of the dead on the last day, which begins the process of glorification/deification.

Do expound more on this please

 

[Aenon]

Do expound more on this please

There is a lot to say about this, so it can't be done in a simple forum post. All I will say is that the ancient world and the patristic writings expound upon the idea that the body is planted in the earth like a seed, when one is buried at death. As the seed awaits to be transfigured into the flower when it resurrects from the ground, so we await our resurrected transfiguration on the last day. Christ was the first fruits, which is a promise that the rest is coming (a tree cannot produce 1 fruit, it either produces many or none)