Is praying to the saints biblical?

[Chad]

Is praying to the saints biblical?

<!-- start main content --> One of the erroneous teachings of the Roman Catholic Church is the doctrine of praying to the saints. Catholicism teaches that it is okay to offer prayers not only to God but also to creatures such as Mary, Joseph, and others who have entered heaven. Is it biblical to pray to anyone other than God? We firmly hold that it is not biblical and that to pray to anyone other than God is idolatrous. Nevertheless, Roman Catholics will try and find whatever they can in Scripture to demonstrate that praying to the saints is permitted. One of the major sections of Scripture used to support this is found in Rev. 5:8-14

"And when He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. ⁹ And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. ¹⁰ "And Thou hast made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." ¹¹ And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, ¹² saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." ¹³ And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." ¹⁴ And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped," (Rev. 5:8-14)​

Let's look at this section of scripture from the Roman Catholic perspective and then analyze their position.
Verse 8 says speaks of the "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Verses 9-10 speak of a new song sung in heaven. Verse 11 speaks of those around the throne of God and verse 12 says that they were saying "Worthy is the Lamb..." Verse 13 mentions every created thing in heaven and earth saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

We have no problem with those in heaven hearing what is said on earth. Many Christians deny that this is possible, but it seems to be clearly taught here. Does this justify the Roman Catholic teaching of praying to those who are in heaven? Not at all. Let's take a look at the verses.

First, regarding verse 8, can the prayers be authored by those who are already in heaven? It doesn't say. There are different interpretations on exactly who the saints are because their identity can't be precisely demonstrated; after all, Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Therefore, if it cannot be conclusively demonstrated who they are, then it cannot be conclusively demonstrated whose prayers they are, either. Nevertheless, verse 9 says "they sang a new song." Who is the "they"? It would have to be either the the four living creatures and/or the 24 elders since "prayers of the saints" don't sing, "creatures" and "elders" do the singing.

In verse 11-12 the angels, the creatures, and the elders who were all around the throne (which means they are in heaven) were praising God directly. In verse 13 it says every created thing in heaven and earth was praising God, then the elders fell down and worshiped, v. 14.

Second, just because those in heaven can hear the prayers of those on Earth does not mean that is okay to pray to saints. If they can hear the prayers of people it is because grants that to them. Think about it. Can those in heaven hear the prayers uttered without speech? Can they read minds? It is only God who knows all things and only God can grant anyone to hear or know what the prayers are of those who pray in silence. Let's not give the saints superhuman powers similar to omniscience. Nevertheless, all the text is saying is that they can hear the praise and worship of God. It does not say that they are to be prayed to, nor does it imply praying to them is permitted. All it says is that they can hear the prayers and praise. There is nothing suggesting that those on Earth are requesting the prayers or intercession of those in heaven. Nothing like this is in the text or even hinted at.

Third, even if the case can be made that prayers are authored in heaven, and that those prayers are mingled with the prayers of those from Earth, it still does not justify those on Earth praying to those in heaven. At best, all that we can say is that the prayers of those in heaven and the prayers of those on Earth are mingled. To say any more than that is to read into the Scripture what is not there.

Fourth, can the saints in heaven hear every prayer of every creature all the time? The Roman Catholic Church prefers to say that it's possible; otherwise, it would not be possible to legitimately pray to Mary. The standard Protestant objection is that praying to the saints implies a type of omniscience on the hearers' part. The Roman Catholic Church replies that we do not know what the state is of those in heaven and that we should not therefore conclude that they cannot hear all of our prayers. But this is an argument from silence. In other words, we don't know what it is like so we conclude it's possible. It is an argument based on what do don't know, not what we do know. This is a very very weak way of trying to present a position. Ultimately, it is an admission by the Roman Catholic Church that the Scriptures do not teach in any direct way there dogma of praying to the saints. The Roman Catholic Church must infer it from scripture and read into the text in order to support its error.

Who should we pray to?

There is no biblical teaching at all that states we are to pray to those who once were alive on earth and are now in heaven. Revelation, the same book used by them to justify their position says the following:

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy," (Rev. 19:10).​

John wants to bow the knee and worship the angel. But the angel tells him not to do that because he is a fellow creature. If the angel says that he is a fellow creature like John, and that John is not to bow to him, then neither should anyone else bow to an angel, or any creature so as to offer worship. Worship includes prayer. Therefore, no one should pray to any created thing.

Biblically, prayer is always offered to God, and is a form of worship. All religions view prayer as an act of worship to their gods since they contain petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, etc., things which are received and answered by God, not by created things. Also, prayer is not the same thing as talking to someone face-to-face. Prayer is a humble petition to the Lord in and not to a friend who's in the same room with you or on the other end of the phone -- or in heaven. Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry. Prayer should be offered only to God and the Roman Catholic Church needs to repent of its false and idolatrous practice of praying to the saints.

Article: CARM - Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

 

[blindside765]

My reaction is no, I agree with your argument although I believe a little differently. The saints that are in heaven would be as I believe, Elijah, Moses, Enoch, and the saints mentioned in Matthew 27:52, that were resurrected and went about spreading the word after Christ breathed his last breathe on the Cross and the temple curtain was torn. I do not believe that the saints can do anything, but it all depends on a person's religious belief on the state of the dead, some religions believe that when you die, your body and soul are in the ground, your soul does not ascend to heaven. Other religions believe that when you die your soul is risen up to heaven while your body is here on earth. My second point is that the holy spirit intercedes on our behalf, in Romans 8:16, 26 - 27: "16 - The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children." "26 - In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. we do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himsel intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 - And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints (the righteous) in accordance with God's will." Prayer is a worship, and I do not believe that it has been biblically backed. I am not a catholic hater, but just in my research and from questioning my friends it seems as though the catholic church is the one leading the way to praying to the saints. I believe prayer is reserved as a form of worship for Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father. The saints have no power to intercede on our behalf, nor for our prayers, like us they to worship the living God, as it mentions in the text of revelation you quoted above.

 

[Boanerges]

Is praying to the saints biblical?

The simple answer- no.

 

[stephen]

As a Christian.....I am mindful of Jesus words.

"I am the way the Truth and the Life,,,,no man cometh unto the Father except through me"

Praying to the Saints Men/Women must be a human idea.....certainly not biblical. The idea may, I speculate, have come from folks who felt such was necessary, to inherit eternal life, some form of holiness perhaps? Whatever.

To those of us blessed with a knowledge of Jesus, absurd, futile, pagan even. I thank God daily for my Salvation......I am so blessed to have met the Master.

The last occasion I read of Mary the mother of Jesus......she was praying with, and as one of the disciples. Acts 1:14

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

Not to stir a hornets nest or anything..:hotfly:


but..




Does this include prayers to Mary?

 

[stephen]

Not to stir a hornets nest or anything..:hotfly:


but..




Does this include prayers to Mary?

Hi brother......God bless you in Jesus

Yes it includes prayers to Mary. The bible does say of Mary "Blessed art thou above women......etc. Luke 1:28 She was a very special lady. Announced as blessed by the vist of the Angel because she was chosen by God to fulfill the first step in God's plan for the redemption of mankind........wow

As I mentioned in my previous post on this topic.......The last mention of Jesus mother Mary in scripture she was praying with, and as one of the disciples. Acts 1:14

Such mighty uncomprehensible happenings are above and beyond us!!

Overshadowed by the Holy Spirit as Mary was....the baby Jesus which was born to her was neither conceived in sin, nor shapen in iniquity.....God did a new thing in the earth. Jesus lay not in the loins of Adam..... when Adam sinned........

"He knew no sin"........2Cor 5:21 Jesu was a complete stranger in the prescence of sin. With sin Jesus had no communion....no fellowship....etc. He was not an inhabitant of this land where sin is practised....etc.

Mary was blessed and chosen by Almighty God without question......and as a virgin pure enough to birth Jesus, the Saviour of the world.

 

[stephen]

Repeat of the above...........sorry.

 

[B-A-C]

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

In the Old Testament, only the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies and talk to God for us. It is the same way now, and there is only one High Priest now.
Heb 8:1, Heb 9:11

Some people confuse this with intercessory prayer. But there is a difference, for example.

You might be in the hospital, unconscious or incapacitated in some way and unable to pray for yourself. You might simply have a hardened heart or even not know how to pray, so others will pray for you. However Jesus is the "phone line" that we talk to God through. That is intercessory prayer.

Praying to someone else besides our "mediator" isn't intercessory prayer, because they aren't the "phone-line". You can't even use someone else as a mediator between you and Jesus (a mediator to a mediator?) You have to know Jesus yourself.

Besides, why you want anyone besides Jesus to intercede as your advocate to God?
God is no respecter of persons. Rom 2:11

That includes those who we might call "saints".

John 14:6, Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
John 14:7, "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

1Sa 2:25, "If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.

Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Rom 8:27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Yes he intercedes "for the saints". Not the other way around.

Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

 

[Coconut]

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

I would like to know what part of ONE is so hard for men to understand!

 

[B-A-C]

Talking (Praying) to dead is a sin that was punishable by death.

1Ch 10:13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,

This happened back in 1st Samuel, the 28th Chapter.

1Sa 28:5 When Saul saw the camp of the Philistines, he was afraid and his heart trembled greatly.
1Sa 28:6 When Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets.
1Sa 28:7 Then Saul said to his servants, "Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her." And his servants said to him, "Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor."
1Sa 28:8 Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, "Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name to you."
1Sa 28:9 But the woman said to him, "Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who are mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?"
1Sa 28:10 Saul vowed to her by the LORD, saying, "As the LORD lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing."
1Sa 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul."

Saul knew this was wrong, God called this detestable back in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

Deu 18:9 "When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations.
Deu 18:10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
Deu 18:11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
Deu 18:12 "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you

Lev 20:26 'Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine.
Lev 20:27 'Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.'"

As Isaiah puts it, "Should a people not consult their God?". Why would you want to pray to anyone else? Especially the "dead".

Isa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD has given me are for signs and wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion.
Isa 8:19 When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
Isa 8:21 They will pass through the land hard-pressed and famished, and it will turn out that when they are hungry, they will be enraged and curse their king and their God as they face upward.
Isa 8:22 Then they will look to the earth, and behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be driven away into darkness.

Jesus can talk to the dead (they are alive to him), but that doesn't mean we can.

Luk 20:38 "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him."
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

 

[B-A-C]

What do we know about Mary?

Well, we know Jesus had brothers and sisters from Mary.

Mat 12:46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.
Mat 12:47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
Mat 12:48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
Mat 12:49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
Mat 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Mat 13:54 He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?
Mat 13:55 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
Mat 13:56 "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"
Mat 13:57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household."
Mat 13:58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

There were two sets of brothers, but here we see the mother of the "son's of Zebedee" is listen separate from the mother of "James and John".
Mat 27:55 Many women were there watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee and had always supported him.
Mat 27:56 Among them were Mary from Magdala, Mary (the mother of James and Joseph), and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

Mar 6:2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
Mar 6:3 "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.
Mar 6:4 Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."

Jesus had a sister named Salome.
Mar 15:40 There were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the Less and Joses, and Salome.

Mar 15:47 Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses were looking on to see where He was laid.

Mar 16:1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him.

This could have been the wife of Zebedee, but was likely Jesus's mother.
Luk 24:10 Now they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James; also the other women with them were telling these things to the apostles.

Jesus's mother had a sister also named Mary and was married to Clopas.
Joh 19:25 Therefore the soldiers did these things. But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
Joh 19:26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He *said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
Joh 19:27 Then He *said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.

We also know Mary wasn't perfect, for example she lost Jesus for 3 days when he was 12. I wonder how most parents would feel about not knowing where their 12 year old child is today?
Luk 2:41 Now His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover.
Luk 2:42 And when He became twelve, they went up there according to the custom of the Feast;
Luk 2:43 and as they were returning, after spending the full number of days, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. But His parents were unaware of it,
Luk 2:44 but supposed Him to be in the caravan, and went a day's journey; and they began looking for Him among their relatives and acquaintances.
Luk 2:45 When they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem looking for Him.
Luk 2:46 Then, after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47 And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers.
Luk 2:48 When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, "Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You."

We know that Mary didn't always want Jesus to only do the will of God. Sometimes she wanted him to do things for her friends, Jesus rebuked her for it.
(The Message)
Joh 2:1 Three days later there was a wedding in the village of Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there.
Joh 2:2 Jesus and his disciples were guests also.
Joh 2:3 When they started running low on wine at the wedding banquet, Jesus' mother told him, "They're just about out of wine."
Joh 2:4 Jesus said, "Is that any of our business, Mother--yours or mine? This isn't my time. Don't push me."
Joh 2:5 She went ahead anyway, telling the servants, "Whatever he tells you, do it."
Joh 2:6 Six stoneware water pots were there, used by the Jews for ritual washings. Each held twenty to thirty gallons.
Joh 2:7 Jesus ordered the servants, "Fill the pots with water." And they filled them to the brim.
Joh 2:8 "Now fill your pitchers and take them to the host," Jesus said, and they did.

(God's Word)
Joh 2:1 Three days later a wedding took place in the city of Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there.
Joh 2:2 Jesus and his disciples had been invited too.
Joh 2:3 When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They're out of wine."
Joh 2:4 Jesus said to her, "Why did you come to me? My time has not yet come."
Joh 2:5 His mother told the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."
Joh 2:6 Six stone water jars were there. They were used for Jewish purification rituals. Each jar held 18 to 27 gallons.
Joh 2:7 Jesus told the servers, "Fill the jars with water." The servers filled the jars to the brim.

Who were the original 12 apostles? Who was James "the son of Alphaeus"?
Mat 10:1 Jesus called his twelve disciples and gave them authority to force evil spirits out of people and to cure every disease and sickness.
Mat 10:2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first and foremost, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James and his brother John, the sons of Zebedee;
Mat 10:3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James (son of Alphaeus), and Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed Jesus.

Mar 3:16 He appointed these twelve: Simon (whom Jesus named Peter),
Mar 3:17 James and his brother John (Zebedee's sons whom Jesus named Boanerges, which means "Thunderbolts"),
Mar 3:18 Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James (son of Alphaeus), Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot,
Mar 3:19 and Judas Iscariot (who later betrayed Jesus).

Luk 6:13 When it was day, he called his disciples. He chose twelve of them and called them apostles.
Luk 6:14 They were Simon (whom Jesus named Peter) and Simon's brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew,
Luk 6:15 Matthew, Thomas, James (son of Alphaeus), Simon (who was called the Zealot),
Luk 6:16 Judas (son of James), and Judas Iscariot (who became a traitor).

It says here that the apostles were in the upper rrom, and then later they were joined by "his brothers".
Act 1:13 When they came into the city, Peter, John, James, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, James (son of Alphaeus), Simon the Zealot, and Judas (son of James) went to the second-story room where they were staying.
Act 1:14 The apostles had a single purpose as they devoted themselves to prayer. They were joined by some women, including Mary (the mother of Jesus), and they were joined by his brothers.

We see that one of the son's of Zebedee was executed here, how do we know was not James the Lord brother?
Act 12:1 About that time King Herod devoted his attention to mistreating certain members of the church.
Act 12:2 He had James, the brother of John, executed.

Well, first we know the other James was still alive.
Act 12:17 Peter motioned with his hand to quiet them down and told them how the Lord had taken him out of prison. He added, "Tell James and the other believers about this." Then he left and went somewhere else.

Act 15:13 After they finished speaking, James responded, "Brothers, listen to me.
Act 15:14 Simon has explained how God first showed his concern by taking from non-Jewish people those who would honor his name.

Act 21:18 The next day Paul went with us to visit James. All the spiritual leaders were present.

We know Jesus visted this James after the resurrection.
1Co 15:7 Next he appeared to James. Then he appeared to all the apostles.

Out of all the apostle, Paul only calls James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:18 Then, three years later I went to Jerusalem to become personally acquainted with Cephas. I stayed with him for fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 I didn't see any other apostle. I only saw James, the Lord's brother.
If he simply meant "the brethren of Christ", why wouldn't he call all of them the "Lord's brother"? Why did he single out James this way?

Now if there was an apostle named James, that wasn't one of the sons of Zebedee,
and we know Mary had a son named James, and Paul called James the Lord's brother, I think we can also deduce that the "other Judas" (not Judas Iscariot the traitor) was the brother of James, as we read above, Mary also had a son named Judas (Jude) also sometimes called Thaddaeus.

This James was an important person in the Church.
Gal 2:9 James, Cephas, and John (who were recognized as the most important people) acknowledged that God had given me this special gift. So they shook hands with Barnabas and me, agreeing to be our partners. It was understood that we would work among the people who are not Jewish and they would work among Jewish people.

Jud 1:1 From Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James. To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father, and who are kept safe for Jesus Christ.

Jas 1:1 From James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ. To God's faithful people who have been scattered. Greetings.

Could Jesus's earthly brothers been who wrote the books of James and Jude?
Could Mary have gotten remarried to someone named Alphaeus?

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Saul was trying to avoid the judgement God had rendered against him. What he was seeking was in direct opposition to God's pronouncement in 1 Sm 13:14. I think it would be more accurate to ask "Is it Biblical to pray to dead saints for something that is not blatantly against God?"

Also, when I was in the Catholic Church the thought of praying to the saints always seemed weird to me. It felt like they were adding a layer of bureacracy to receiving God's grace. I'd heard reports of healings coming through such prayers, but a new light was shed on that when I learned that Satan can perform sham miracles.

SLE