Is our understanding of the Trinity/Godhead correct?

[David777]

THIS IS A 'PROPHECY'. It doesn't state whether or not Isaiah 'agrees' with the prophecy. Man has fulfilled the prophecy, because they believe that Isaiah agrees with the prophecy. DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?

Also 1 John 5:7 has been debated by many. Some say that it is not in the original 'manuscripts'. I would be careful using this scripture as 'reference'. The NIV study bible has 'deleted' this verse.

I do in fact disagree that Isaiah 9:6 (messianic prophecy) is the interpretation
of man. It appears that you have a theology contrary to what the scriptures
declare.

Remember, the scripture is God breathed, God's declaration to man.

Perhaps you should read the letter to the Philippians if you really
wish to understand whom the messiah is.

 

[David777]

Hello thorwald, thought I might quote the relevant passage.

Philippians 2

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Note that He humbled himself, since He was God.
He found himself in appearance as a man, not born as such.
The name above every name.
Jesus is Lord.

 

[Thorwald]

I do in fact disagree that Isaiah 9:6 (messianic prophecy) is the interpretation
of man. It appears that you have a theology contrary to what the scriptures
declare.

Remember, the scripture is God breathed, God's declaration to man.

Perhaps you should read the letter to the Philippians if you really
wish to understand whom the messiah is.

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT.

I am well aware of who Jesus Christ is, and the power and glory given to Him by His Father. What you do not understand, is that the Christian Ministry, and the rest of Christianity followers, HAVE THROWN HIS FATHER OUT.

The Lord God Almighty is the 'invisible' Father's Son, and it is He who is sitting on the throne in Revelation chapter four. He is The Creator. It is He who we must ALSO give glory to. He is the first 'person' referred to in Isaiah 44:6. HE IS THE KING.

I need no man to tell me HOW GREAT that Jesus is. I am fully aware of this. However, I do not THROW OUT HIS FATHER (The Lord's Prayer).

 

[David777]

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT.

I am well aware of who Jesus Christ is, and the power and glory given to Him by His Father. What you do not understand, is that the Christian Ministry, and the rest of Christianity followers, HAVE THROWN HIS FATHER OUT.

The Lord God Almighty is the 'invisible' Father's Son, and it is He who is sitting on the throne in Revelation chapter four. He is The Creator. It is He who we must ALSO give glory to. He is the first 'person' referred to in Isaiah 44:6. HE IS THE KING.

I need no man to tell me HOW GREAT that Jesus is. I am fully aware of this. However, I do not THROW OUT HIS FATHER (The Lord's Prayer).

Hello Thorwald.

Thanks for finally stating your hypothesis.

I am not sure that the "Christian Ministry" has thrown out the Father.

Rather, the emphasis is on the revelation of Jesus, and rightly so.

The Christian ministry firmly holds to the trinity, I do wonder
how you derived your hypothesis?

Colossians 1

19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace
through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth
or things in heaven.

 

[Thorwald]

Hello Thorwald.

Thanks for finally stating your hypothesis.

I am not sure that the "Christian Ministry" has thrown out the Father.

Rather, the emphasis is on the revelation of Jesus, and rightly so.

The Christian ministry firmly holds to the trinity, I do wonder
how you derived your hypothesis?

Colossians 1

19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace
through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth
or things in heaven.

Well, I want you to take your 'belief', and match it to 1 Timothy 1:16, and tell me how you can put this 'person' on the throne in Revelation chapter 4. If you note, Revelation 4:11 states that He who is sitting on the throne, created everything [along with Jesus Christ, after He FIRST created Jesus Christ]. Scripture tells us, that THE FATHER allowed HIS SON to create everything and this 'pleased' THE FATHER. Revelation 4:11 states that it was for the person sitting on the throne's 'pleasure' that everything was created. If I buy my son a car, it is because it 'pleases' me to do so . My son, however will receive the 'pleasure' of driving the car.

Again, I believe that PAUL is the culprit.

 

[Thorwald]

It appears to me, that no other person (on any of the forums that I have posted on, or any of the Christian ministry that I have corresponded with), has prayed to God for an understanding of The Trinity and The Godhead. I have done so, and received a vision and a dream (the dream was in 'riddles'), in response to my prayers. THERE ARE FOUR FIGURES, NOT THREE. The NT contains errors. 1 Timothy 6:13-16 has us believing that Jesus Christ is The Son of the 'invisible FATHER'. Jesus Christ is the first creation of The Lord God Almighty. The Lord God Almighty, is THE SON of the 'invisible FATHER'. It is THE SON who is 'KING' of HIS creations. Jesus Christ, is THE PRINCE, who sits on His own throne (governing His followers), and sits along with THE SON on HIS THRONE. Together, these two, are GOD (per Isaiah 44:6).

 

[amadeus2]

It appears to me, that no other person (on any of the forums that I have posted on, or any of the Christian ministry that I have corresponded with), has prayed to God for an understanding of The Trinity and The Godhead. I have done so, and received a vision and a dream (the dream was in 'riddles'), in response to my prayers. THERE ARE FOUR FIGURES, NOT THREE. The NT contains errors. 1 Timothy 6:13-16 has us believing that Jesus Christ is The Son of the 'invisible FATHER'. Jesus Christ is the first creation of The Lord God Almighty. The Lord God Almighty, is THE SON of the 'invisible FATHER'. It is THE SON who is 'KING' of HIS creations. Jesus Christ, is THE PRINCE, who sits on His own throne (governing His followers), and sits along with THE SON on HIS THRONE. Together, these two, are GOD (per Isaiah 44:6).

You are certainly wrong in the part where you say that no one else has prayed about this. I have. I grew up as a devouot young Catholic where the trinity was a given. During my 20's I remained only a nominal Catholic. Then at age 32 I was drawn by God into the UPC where emphasis was on the Bible, which I had never previously read, and on the Oneness of God (no trinity). I was in oneness Jesus only groups for 11 years. In 1987 a major change began to occur. My "vision" has improved from then until now. It was not single short dream or vision as you describe, but nonetheless a vision:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

Everyone who has had a real experience with God has a vision, but must it not be moving from what is seen at through a "glass darkly" to a " face to face" clarity?

Never assume that because you have had a vision from God, that you have seen all that there is. God has no limits, but those put on Him by men. God, I believe, gave man that ability to limit Him in some things. If we can ever come to the understanding that there is no limit, then there will be no limit. Jesus was there. Can we get there? Probably not, but not because God cannot do it, but rather because we will not let Him.

 

[rizen1]

A lot to take in



I love a good challenge, helps keep me on our toes. I've been doing my own research on the origin/history of the trinity its fascinating. I don't use Internet search engines all the time you get the same info . I went to the library, the oldest book I found was from 1905. It's a reference book so I can't take it home. I stopped my research some months now and will begin again. I've misplaced all my notes and must start again. The library I went to was founded in 1815. A lot of old dusty books.

This thread should lead people to do research to prove what they believe and also test their beliefs. Those who don't agree take the challenge do some research if your belief is right you don't lose anything but gain evidence to prove it.

 

[Puddleglum]

It appears to me, that no other person (on any of the forums that I have posted on, or any of the Christian ministry that I have corresponded with), has prayed to God for an understanding of The Trinity and The Godhead. I have done so, and received a vision and a dream (the dream was in 'riddles'), in response to my prayers. THERE ARE FOUR FIGURES, NOT THREE. The NT contains errors. 1 Timothy 6:13-16 has us believing that Jesus Christ is The Son of the 'invisible FATHER'. Jesus Christ is the first creation of The Lord God Almighty. The Lord God Almighty, is THE SON of the 'invisible FATHER'. It is THE SON who is 'KING' of HIS creations. Jesus Christ, is THE PRINCE, who sits on His own throne (governing His followers), and sits along with THE SON on HIS THRONE. Together, these two, are GOD (per Isaiah 44:6).

There are only 3 and all 3 are as one.
One must see this in a Spiritual sense not a worldly one.

 

[David777]

Hello Thorwald.

Not sure if I fully understand what you are saying.

Micah 5:2
But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from
long ago, from the days of eternity.

I do need more explanation if you do not mind.

 

[DutchChristian]

It appears to me, that no other person (on any of the forums that I have posted on, or any of the Christian ministry that I have corresponded with), has prayed to God for an understanding of The Trinity and The Godhead. I have done so, and received a vision and a dream (the dream was in 'riddles'), in response to my prayers. THERE ARE FOUR FIGURES, NOT THREE. The NT contains errors. 1 Timothy 6:13-16 has us believing that Jesus Christ is The Son of the 'invisible FATHER'. Jesus Christ is the first creation of The Lord God Almighty. The Lord God Almighty, is THE SON of the 'invisible FATHER'. It is THE SON who is 'KING' of HIS creations. Jesus Christ, is THE PRINCE, who sits on His own throne (governing His followers), and sits along with THE SON on HIS THRONE. Together, these two, are GOD (per Isaiah 44:6).

you are in grave error

as:


Jesus was NOT created! --> Jesus is GOD!

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

And Jesus is NOT a prince --> He is GOD, He is KING! KING of kings and Lord of lords the Alpha and the Omega! (does it say prince?) Hallelujah!

Revelation 17
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Revelation 1

1 Timothy 6
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Revelations 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Besides that:

-The NT does not contain errors! as you did wrongfully state...

-There are not four figures! what a strange fantasy you got there...

Now listen carefully:

Trinity =

GOD The Father
GOD The Son Jesus Christ
GOD The Holy Ghost
*colours added for educational purposes only

Here you can see the Trinity: Lord Jesus, The Holy Ghost and The Father working together:

Matthew 3*
16 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him:
17 And lo a Voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I Am well pleased.

*colours added for educational purposes only

better not follow after that strange vision and a dream you got there Thorwald, making you think in a prideful way as if you were the only one chosen to understand this in this here seemingly "special" way, as you have been deceived by following after this vision and dream! You must always Go by the written Word of GOD instead alone!

Do not follow after dreams and visions.

 

[jason h]

Hello Thorwald, I too had an experience and only now after time has gone by did I see how messed up my thinking became. I too started thinking parts of the NT were wrong or that I knew something others didnt. I later found out that there were others long ago who acted the same way. They were called nostics and claimed to have superior knowledge to that of God's word. John addressed some of that thinking in his writings. Here is the bottom line. You either believe the word of God is inspired or by default you think that it isnt. If you think it isnt, then now you're left with the daunting task of trying to figure out when God is speaking, or when man is speaking. Our hearts are easily decieved and we dont have a good picture of what goes on behind the scenes. So we put our trust in what God has given us in His word.

That is unless you think God messed up and acidently let paul write incorrect things in his writings that are contrary to what God wanted us to know. Please stick to sound doctrine brother and if you find that reason or even visions start to undo scripture, that should be your clue that something else is goin on. That's what happened to me and looking back I see how messed up I was. But at that time I didnt accept any one, not even scripture or years of church history and doctrine. Check through history at all the men who have claimmed special revelation and you'll find strange doctrines that eventually have their people turning from the word.

Remember that you wouldnt have even known the name of Jesus without God's word. Kinda like someone learning a little about physics, then trying to disprove physics because they think their new idea about free energy being a reality, that came about from studying physics in the 1st place, is correct. They refuse to entertain the thought that they might be wrong. They think they have a special knowledge, that goes against the entire physics community, and that governments are withholding this knowledge. They then go about re-writing physics to fit what they have in their mind. Some even go as far as to think special beings or aliens or whatever have been broadcasting this special information to them. I see these things as 'types' or examples in our everyday life of what can happen with spiritual things.

 

[Thorwald]

you are in grave error

as:


Jesus was NOT created! --> Jesus is GOD!

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

And Jesus is NOT a prince --> He is GOD, He is KING! KING of kings and Lord of lords the Alpha and the Omega! (does it say prince?) Hallelujah!

Revelation 17
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Revelation 1

1 Timothy 6
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Revelations 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Besides that:

-The NT does not contain errors! as you did wrongfully state...

-There are not four figures! what a strange fantasy you got there...

Now listen carefully:

Trinity =

GOD The Father
GOD The Son Jesus Christ
GOD The Holy Ghost
*colours added for educational purposes only

Here you can see the Trinity: Lord Jesus, The Holy Ghost and The Father working together:

Matthew 3*
16 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him:
17 And lo a Voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I Am well pleased.

*colours added for educational purposes only

better not follow after that strange vision and a dream you got there Thorwald, making you think in a prideful way as if you were the only one chosen to understand this in this here seemingly "special" way, as you have been deceived by following after this vision and dream! You must always Go by the written Word of GOD instead alone!

Do not follow after dreams and visions.

TRY READING REVELATION 3:14. Christ is the first creation of The Lord God Almighty. Christ's 'creation' was different from all other men and women. The word 'begotten' seems to refer to the use of 'male *****' in order to impregnate a woman. In the case of Adam & Eve, it can be said that they were 'created' from the 'earth', but Eve was also, 'begotten of Adam' (Adam's rib). I believe that the Lord God Almighty created His only begotten Son from His own ***** (without mother). This is why both He and His Father, are in the 'express image' of each other.

You tell me not to use the vision and dream that I experienced. The Bible tells me otherwise. Numbers 12:6 is The Word of God. Where does your word come from?

 

[Thorwald]

Hello Thorwald, I too had an experience and only now after time has gone by did I see how messed up my thinking became. I too started thinking parts of the NT were wrong or that I knew something others didnt. I later found out that there were others long ago who acted the same way. They were called nostics and claimed to have superior knowledge to that of God's word. John addressed some of that thinking in his writings. Here is the bottom line. You either believe the word of God is inspired or by default you think that it isnt. If you think it isnt, then now you're left with the daunting task of trying to figure out when God is speaking, or when man is speaking. Our hearts are easily decieved and we dont have a good picture of what goes on behind the scenes. So we put our trust in what God has given us in His word.

That is unless you think God messed up and acidently let paul write incorrect things in his writings that are contrary to what God wanted us to know. Please stick to sound doctrine brother and if you find that reason or even visions start to undo scripture, that should be your clue that something else is goin on. That's what happened to me and looking back I see how messed up I was. But at that time I didnt accept any one, not even scripture or years of church history and doctrine. Check through history at all the men who have claimmed special revelation and you'll find strange doctrines that eventually have their people turning from the word.

Remember that you wouldnt have even known the name of Jesus without God's word. Kinda like someone learning a little about physics, then trying to disprove physics because they think their new idea about free energy being a reality, that came about from studying physics in the 1st place, is correct. They refuse to entertain the thought that they might be wrong. They think they have a special knowledge, that goes against the entire physics community, and that governments are withholding this knowledge. They then go about re-writing physics to fit what they have in their mind. Some even go as far as to think special beings or aliens or whatever have been broadcasting this special information to them. I see these things as 'types' or examples in our everyday life of what can happen with spiritual things.

I AM TELLING YOU THAT PAUL HAS 'SCREWED UP'. This is the job that I agreed to do for GOD. Isaiah has also screwed up. When Isaiah saw the figure on the throne, he was afraid. He knew that if any man saw the 'invisible FATHER', this man would die. Isaiah then 'assumed' that the one sitting on the throne, was the Lord of Hosts. He was wrong. It was the Lord God Almighty...the 'invisible FATHER'S SON'.

It appears, that this same ERROR has been replicated throughout the scriptures. Revelation refers to THE SON'S and HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON'S KINGDOM(S). Nowhere in Revelation, is THE INVISIBLE FATHER or THE HOLY SPIRIT mentioned. They are also not mentioned in Isaiah 44:6. The Lord God Almighty has to first 'reconcile' His Kingdom (along with His Christ) (Book of Revelation), before submitting Himself and His Kingdom unto THE INVISIBLE FATHER.

Please refer to Revelation 11:15 and 12:10. If you also look at Revelation 1:6, it appears to tell us, that even GOD has a FATHER. I believe, that John knew this, as he was recording all that he saw, and was told to write down. I believe that this is the only place in the scriptures, that supports what I was shown in my vision. The reason for this, is that Revelation is 'unique'. All other scriptures, contain the same error as Paul teaches, because no one went to GOD in prayer, to seek the truth. The dream that I had, showed me this. I alone, went to GOD in prayer (even in anger), when I noticed that the Christian 'understanding' BROKE SCRIPTURE. GOD kept bringing me back to my vision. The vision is the truth. THERE ARE FOUR FIGURES, NOT THREE.

 

[Strypes]

Thorwald,

The NIV renders Revelation 3:14 as..

14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Your insistence that Jesus is the first created being reminds me of the false doctrines of the Watchtower.


Are you a Jehovah's witness?

 

[Strypes]

I am not a Greek scholar. I sometimes wish that I was. Like now.

But I did find this online...

"The term “beginning,” as employed in Revelation 3:14, does not suggest a commencement in time for Jesus Christ. The Greek word that is rendered “beginning” in Revelation 3:14 is arche. The term is employed in various senses in Greek literature. It may refer to the “beginning” of something if there is evidence available that the “something” indeed had a beginning, e.g., in “the beginning of the gospel” (Mk. 1:1). But this certainly does not exhaust the meaning of the expression.

Arche can also signify the “first cause,” of a thing, or that by which something “begins to be,” i.e., the originating source . Another scholar notes that arche in Revelation 3:14 is used “of Christ as the uncreated principle, the active cause of creation” (Abbott-Smith, p. 62). Balz and Schneider emphatically state that the term in this text is “not to be understood as … the first of created things” (p. 162).

(3) In Revelation 22:13, Christ refers to himself as the “beginning arche and the end telos.” If “beginning” suggests that there was a time when Christ did not exist, but that he came into existence as the first being of God’s creation, does “end” indicate that there will be a point at which the Savior will go out of existence? The question hardly needs a response."

In Isaiah 48:12 the Lord God described himself as “the first” and “the last.” Did he mean to indicate that there was a time when he did not exist? The very idea is absurd."

It is from the Christian Courier website and was written by Wayne Jackson.

I think anyone that tries to belittle Jesus to anything "less" will find that they are the ones that "screwed up". Hopefully they will realize their error before it is an eternal mistake.

 

[will]

Thorwald, you seem to respond to everyone's post while seemingly skipping my direct question to you,
so I ask again:

When we are commanded by Lord Jesus in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19):
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Three or four or one?

 

[tghslh]

you know, youre question was has, the christian ministry made a vey large error? In Gen. chapter 3 the serpent said the same thing to eve; hath God said? Then he, as you, distorting the truth, coused confussion and, God is not the author of confussion. also believing a lie brough eves down fall. You do error, not knowing the scripture. nor have you rightly devided the word. And as far as youre dream gose, maybe you should change youre diet. God was not reponcable for youre error.You have asked, has anyone prayed about this ,and then you said( in other words), i guess not, but i have, and, God showed me in a dream. Apparently you feel there is some sort of private interpritation, becouse you have separated youre self as special. I seem to recall others doing this too, and have led many astray or, to thier end. Joseph smith,Bbrigham Young,Bill Russell. Jim Jones. all cult leaders who distorted the truth and, drew away by lies, those whom had thought they found the truth, themselfs such as youre sel,f not being saved , and not knowing or having that personal relationship with God. Nor that indwelling Holy Spirit that leads you into all truth.

 

[amadeus2]

Well the atheists are correct: If a person in the flesh searches for errors in scripture, he will find what looks like errors. That person's error is that he is expecting to find Truth by means of his own logic. That is not the answer, but it can be the problem for someone, who really wants to know the Truth.

I will say that Jesus is the Truth, but someone who does not agree will readily say that he disagrees.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

Don't throw out the whole Bible, or even portions of it, because they seem wrong to you or because you do not understand them, or they do not fit what you already believe.

Only God gives the increase to any of us: the increase from unbeliever to believer, the increase from partial understanding to a more complete understanding, etc.

Jesus grew and we must grow. If before we are overcomers as Jesus was an overcomer, we reject whatever doesn't seem to fit, it is all too likely that at the end we not have all that we need... need according to God, not according to any man's logic.

 

[jason h]

Thorwald, who was it that gave Isaiah his vision? If God, then are you saying God messed up giving him a vision? Does this help save people? This is a good question since God's very name reveals who He is and what He does, i.e Jesus Christ- the God who saves or savior king. That's His character. If the bible is now incorrect, then what? Please tell me how to be right since you're telling me that God's word is not trustworthy.

Please listen brother, if the whole bible seems to be in error on this as you say, have you even entertained the thought that you are wrong? I already know what is going to happen if you continue. You will find more and more 'wrong' in the word and it will become so messed up and backwards that it wont even make sense anymore. Please pray to God to ground you in Christ. He will help those who ask for help. It's not a lack of faith to ask Him to show you if you may be in error. That's an honest question and good prayer to the one who is our redeemer.