is OSAS lethal poison?

[David777]

Hello Jari.

Consider the concept "a new creation".

A new creation is a person that has died with
Christ and been reborn.

A new creation is a spiritual creation in Christ.

A new creation is eternal, not essentially defined
within linear time. Hence, already seated
with Christ. This is only logical.

If the new creation looks back at the world of sin
and returns, then the new creation has died and
the old creation is alive once more.

It is impossible for a new creation to perform works
relating to salvation because that is self justification.
Self justification is only ever an attribute of the
person striving to appear sinless in God's eyes.
A person who does not believe in Jesus is
performing self justification, a new creation
cannot justify itself that is illogical.

So it must then represent a paradox if a new creation
is ever accused of self justification. A new creation
is righteous because of Christ, there is no self
justification, that is a paradox, the argument
necessarily fails.

Thus, whatever works the new creation is asked
to perform by God these works can never be construed
as works contributing to salvation. Only ever works
befitting the new creation. Or works that God
designed in the universe for the new creation to do.

Is it possible for the new creation not to bear fruit.
Of course it is impossible, a new creation is created by
God and will through faith bear fruit. Is it necessary
to bear fruit, well you are not a new creation if you
do not bear fruit.

How do you know if you are a new creation?

If and only if you received the Holy Spirit!

The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are His!

How's that Jari?

 

[jari]

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. (NIV)

seems like this is talking about believing the gospel to the end. and not forgetting Jesus, as if He wasnt the savior.

forgetting this would probably be possible if there wasnt enough faith to believe the message. and thus they would have believed in vain.

(1Co 15:2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. (NIV)

this seems to be talking about holding to Christ but it isnt clear if it would mean losing salvation.... if that confidence would be broken

 

[DutchChristian]

seems like this is talking about believing the gospel to the end. and not forgetting Jesus, as if He wasnt the savior.

forgetting this would probably be possible if there wasnt enough faith to believe the message. and thus they would have believed in vain.

(1Co 15:2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.




this seems to be talking about holding to Christ but it isnt clear if it would mean losing salvation.... if that confidence would be broken

Why would these all things be mentioned in the word of God if salvation could never be lost in the first place?

 

[jari]

Why would these all things be mentioned in the word of God if salvation could never be lost in the first place?

because Gospel must be believed.. and not forgotten which would be sign of not believing in the first place...

 

[jari]

Consider the concept "a new creation".

A new creation is a person that has died with
Christ and been reborn.

A new creation is a spiritual creation in Christ.

A new creation is eternal, not essentially defined
within linear time. Hence, already seated
with Christ. This is only logical.

If the new creation looks back at the world of sin
and returns, then the new creation has died and
the old creation is alive once more.

It is impossible for a new creation to perform works
relating to salvation because that is self justification.
Self justification is only ever an attribute of the
person striving to appear sinless in God's eyes.
A person who does not believe in Jesus is
performing self justification, a new creation
cannot justify itself that is illogical.

So it must then represent a paradox if a new creation
is ever accused of self justification. A new creation
is righteous because of Christ, there is no self
justification, that is a paradox, the argument
necessarily fails.

Thus, whatever works the new creation is asked
to perform by God these works can never be construed
as works contributing to salvation. Only ever works
befitting the new creation. Or works that God
designed in the universe for the new creation to do.

Is it possible for the new creation not to bear fruit.
Of course it is impossible, a new creation is created by
God and will through faith bear fruit. Is it necessary
to bear fruit, well you are not a new creation if you
do not bear fruit.

How do you know if you are a new creation?

If and only if you received the Holy Spirit!

The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are His!

How's that Jari?

David i don't know the schematics but I do believe new creation is just what Holy spirit in us allows us to relate to God.

 

[DutchChristian]

because Gospel must be believed.. and not forgotten which would be sign of not believing in the first place...

Hi Jari,

there are many warnings throughout the Scriptures that are there for a reason.

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And the following is written to believers:

2 Peter 3:14-18
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Take care,

 

[David777]

Back to you jari.

This new creation by default is already seated with
Christ, so it is much more than relationship.

It is the present and the future relationship
combined into one thru Christ.

Christianity has always been the past, present
and future, because God is. We are only limited
by that which limits us, these limits are seen, visual,
they are not faith, faith believes or knows all things.
Can we not say to that mountain...,of course we can,
all things are real and possible in Christ. We are
already there in the spiritual, just a slight delay
appears in the flesh.

 

[jari]

Hi Jari,

there are many warnings throughout the Scriptures that are there for a reason.


14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And the following is written to believers:


14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Take care,

it isnt said here that salvation could be lost but what is said is that the saved have this thing special, and that is everything God has given by His grace, and steadfastness that comes from following the truth.
for saved its possible to walk in God's truth which is also written in our hearts and not to stone tables.

we grow in grace and in knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

This new creation by default is already seated with
Christ, so it is much more than relationship.


It is the present and the future relationship
combined into one thru Christ.


Christianity has always been the past, present
and future, because God is. We are only limited
by that which limits us, these limits are seen, visual,
they are not faith, faith believes or knows all things.
Can we not say to that mountain...,of course we can,
all things are real and possible in Christ. We are
already there in the spiritual, just a slight delay
appears in the flesh.

I agree with you,it's the only way to see it that fits most if not all scripture(still researching)

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

No "man" has seen the light but these new creatures have,they came from it.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Again no "man" has seen the Father.Only the one who is from God.The new creature is from God.


John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Those standing there were more than just men,in time they would become new creatures and since Jesus is Lord over time he was speaking truth(Jesus is the truth) to them rather than what seemed to be true at that time.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Was his prayer actually heard and answered by the Father?If so then we(the new creature) are seated in him now in the actual reality that exists before the foundation of time.

Jesus said:
John 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

This was certainly not an accurate statement at that time,or they would not have been so astonished by his resurrection.Jesus had knowledge of how God sees things and time was not an issue.

I don't think being saved is about getting a man to heaven,it's about a new one created by God who comes from heaven getting to a man and taking over his short life with abundant life and that more abundantly.

 

[Acebopata]

If the teaching is that a Christian is saved forever, once truly saved, though there are serious consequences for sin, then it's not necessarily fatal.

If the Teaching is that a Christian is saved forever, and that there is no punishment for sin from that time forward, including in subjects life here on Earth, then yes it is fatal. Especially if the teaching is that a few feel good words without repentance will save one's soul.

 

[Puddleglum]

One becomes a Christian and we have the parable of the sower to deal with ? so we can fall away.
If one truly believes in Christ, but is at the beginning of his journey and passes away. i think he can go to Christ, but does he rise to be of a greater person in Christ. as we are all called to become Saints ? but not all become Saints, now do we. and not necessary is one of Satan's will, by our wanting to be, as calling ourselves a Christian. but it is because of original Sin we drag Satan's chains some what and until we come to be abiding in the Vine then we are strengthened and by our fruits we are known to be of Christ.
One must bear fruit.

 

[Puddleglum]

I will answer your question ThisCrossHurts.

The question was "what did Paul do to get saved"?

Paul was busy arresting Christians and destroying the infant Church.

Paul was not seeking Jesus Christ ThisCrossHurts.

Jesus Christ collided with Paul on the road to Damascus.

Paul did not seek salvation, Paul was given salvation.

Paul was hand picked by Jesus and set apart, which Paul always
explains in his letters. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

Paul did not pursue this ministry through prayer and leading a
holy life in Christ. Paul did not succumb to the conviction
of the Holy Spirit. Paul was assigned the duty on the road to
Damascus, did not Paul say "woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel".

Paul wrote most of the New Testament, Paul did not even
consult other Christians nor even the apostles. Paul was
supernaturally given the Gospel to preach.

A most unnatural conversion to say the least.

Yes, yes, in general God has no favorites, but the truth
is there are a handful of people throughout the Bible
who have no true choice in life. They are given a specific
duty to accomplish by God for our sakes.

Jeremiah is another one, Jeremiah wanted a wife and
a block of land. Neither option was available to Jeremiah,
he was given the bottom of a well to sit in. Jeremiah
was told exactly what to do and say at all times.

From birth Jeremiah was set apart for the duty he
was given. Jeremiah had no say in it. I am not sure
that Jeremiah even had friends, no one liked him.
The weeping prophet.

I think Paul was rocked by the fact that he heard what Stephen had to say and knew he spoke the truth in God. and anyone who listened to what Stephen says would have to realise the facts he was saying are true and then from then on when if finely dawn on him, it would of hit him so hard, he would of been blown away completely. he knew who he was dealing with from then on.

 

[DutchChristian]

Just a simple question that refutes OSAS.


Matthew 6
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Now what if your trespasses aren't forgiven???

Say bye bye to OSAS... because osas supports that even if you cannot and will not forgive others you still be forgiven, which does not compare with the Scriptures: But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Think about it.

 

[jari]

I wouldnt say that's reason osas wouldnt be true DutchChristian. because forgiveness has many forms and times we need it. we are forgiven thanks to Jesus cross... but we if haven't forgiven others we maybe reminded of the forgiveness we all need. to me this is what the scripture means

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I have to wonder why Jesus said "consider the cost of building a tower".
Is the "tower" salvation?Or does he mean something beyond salvation.
Why didn't he say consider the cost of NOT building a tower.


In order to consider the cost of building something you have to understand the structural requirements of thing and you have to know enough about cost and availability of materials and you have to know your own finances,abilities and resolve.


It just does not seem as simple as "getting to heaven".


Hebrews 6:1-6 has a qualifier:
4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit,


I have at times considered myself enlightened then upon getting closer to the light found more spots.Have I tasted the heavenly gifts?Have I been a partaker of the Holy Spirit?


Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusts in him.


What about those that haven't tasted yet,those who are faced with continual battles and have to fight for the tiniest slices of joy.
If you haven't met God and experienced his goodness I doubt you are even qualified to reject him or his son.


In the story of Lazarus and the rich man we see a picture of a reward system that does not fit popular beliefs.
Luke 16:25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


Some people have an easier time believing in a good God.
Lazarus seems to be rewarded simply for the suffering he endured.


Who knows,maybe God sees us as individuals and he knows that it is much easier for someone experiencing a good life to believe that God loves them and has their best interest at heart.
Could there be degrees of salvation?Are there levels above salvation?
Are we really sure what salvation is?


Blessed is he who does not see and yet believes.


John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


I would rather side with the blind on this question and go with the scripture that he will never leave me or forsake me.
If I forsake him I hope he won't give up on me,I didn't seek him to begin with somebody prayed for me and it was effective.Perhaps someone will pray me back into the light.


Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Just some things to ponder.
These are things I consider when praying for the lost, struggling, backsliden and those steeped in error.I will never leave or forsake those I pray and believe for and God has more love for them than I do.
Why would I bother to pray for the lost if I thought they had any real control of their miserable shortlives.

Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.