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is OSAS lethal poison?
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eddie, depends how you look at it. those verses have absolutely nothing to do with salvation like we can clearly see.
But you may use them like any verse to put conditions to salvation.
it's only matter of how God looks at obeying His word etc.
jari the whole chapter has to do with salvation. you are either in Christ or in sin. there is no other alternate path. i will repost one scripture and then illustrate:
Joh 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
therefore if you dont do what God commands you you are NOT going to be claimed by Jesus, the one talking here, to be a friend.
many do not believe what the word says, that faith without works is dead. Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
here is a commentary from darby:
John 15:14
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you - On this condition, not otherwise. A thunderbolt for Antinomianism! Who then dares assert that God's love does not at all depend on man's works?
the word says to be a doer and not a hearer only. a doer is someone who changes how they live once the word/God tells them change is needed. a hearer hears but continues on in their sinful action.
jari i would like you to go more into detail on what you was saying about "how God looks at obeying His word etc." is it any different than what i have said a doer or not?
edit part: here is another scripture we can clearly see puts conditions on salvation: Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
notice it says "my people"
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Member
jari the whole chapter has to do with salvation. you are either in Christ or in sin. there is no other alternate path. i will repost one scripture and then illustrate:
Joh 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
therefore if you dont do what God commands you you are NOT going to be claimed by Jesus, the one talking here, to be a friend.
many do not believe what the word says, that faith without works is dead. Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
here is a commentary from darby:
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you - On this condition, not otherwise. A thunderbolt for Antinomianism! Who then dares assert that God's love does not at all depend on man's works?
the word says to be a doer and not a hearer only. a doer is someone who changes how they live once the word/God tells them change is needed. a hearer hears but continues on in their sinful action.
jari i would like you to go more into detail on what you was saying about "how God looks at obeying His word etc." is it any different than what i have said a doer or not?
edit part: here is another scripture we can clearly see puts conditions on salvation: My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
notice it says "my people"
its all matter of perspective. bible says we are saved by grace not of works but its gift. ok so to believe what you said i have to ignore that part. grace actually means gift.
so then i recon works must play some other part than salvation.
and works can increase our faith and make our faith alive while not doing works makes our faith dead. makes somehow very much sense and clearly does not speak of losing salvation.
as salvation was not of works then it cant be lost by lack of works.
i would imagine if Father loves all his children some can have place as His friends as well.
if child would not do works that would not make the father hate his child.
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Member
its all matter of perspective. bible says we are saved by grace not of works but its gift. ok so to believe what you said i have to ignore that part. grace actually means gift.
so then i recon works must play some other part than salvation.
and works can increase our faith and make our faith alive while not doing works makes our faith dead. makes somehow very much sense and clearly does not speak of losing salvation.
as salvation was not of works then it cant be lost by lack of works.
i would imagine if Father loves all his children some can have place as His friends as well.
if child would not do works that would not make the father hate his child.
yes it is a gift. grace. but to turn to sin is to turn away from God. like a dog returning to its vomit. the bible speaks of a great falling away in the last days. do you believe all these people who turn are still saved? if it didnt matter, they are still saved, why would God bother mentioning it in his word? as a warning.
Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
what if you dont endure?
edit part:
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
notice all ten was virgins, sybolizing the bride of Christ. half was foolish. skip to:
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
so Jesus said he didnt know 5 of the virgins. osas? i think not.
heres another good one: Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
another doer and not a hearer only one : Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
this final scripture is the check mate to osas:
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
weeping and gnashing of teeth dont sound like once saved always saved. it sounds like a change of heart and then you end up in a firey furnace.
i wont leave this post so gloomy.
Lam 3:21 This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.
Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
Lam 3:23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
Lam 3:24 The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
Lam 3:25 The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
even in the book of lamentations, a book of extreme woe because the people had turned from The Almighty, there written in the pages is HOPE. His mercy is new every morning. If we turn to Him, He will turn to us.
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Member
yes it is a gift. grace. but to turn to sin is to turn away from God. like a dog returning to its vomit. the bible speaks of a great falling away in the last days. do you believe all these people who turn are still saved? if it didnt matter, they are still saved, why would God bother mentioning it in his word? as a warning.
falling probably doesnt egual turning. I think when discussing OSAS we should consider the difference between follower of Jesus and born again believer. there maybe different levels of faith. so with good faith and maturity we should have archieved something more than carnal following of Jesus but instead true spiritual maturity and relationship with God. I cant ever define whos faith is enough and for what reasons but I do believe one must be born again to be truly God's child and not mere follower who hasnt been born again and have been given God's holy spirit.
so what im saying is anyone can follow Jesus but it should be rather obvious not everyone is born again. one must accept the gift of God of salvation to be born again, i believe.
(if we dont accept God's way of salvation, the gift but try to justify our selves then we are trying to get in to heaven by our own effort and way)
i believe born again, saved people could fall into works trying to justify them self. but its not the life God has called us to.
all the verses you posted are good . but can be used to support or against OSAS. its always matter of interpreation. actually i think the 10 virgins parable can only be used to support to support OSAS if we look what words Jesus uses and not follow it as if with mere instinct, and see it as warning for feelings based instincts instead of what the promise of God's word declares over our salvation.
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Member
falling and turning are one in the same. falling into sin/ turning from God. no one would follow Jesus and not believe on him because if you dont believe on Him you are in the world. if you are going to claim 10 virgins parable is used to support it please support it- i made my claim.
edit part: i have never ever said we earn salvation. nor would i because i dont believe it. salvation is a gift. but if we choose to walk away from God thats exactly what we do. and then, like it says in my post above, God will appoint that person their portion and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. i agree salvation is a gift and we can not earn or keep it. but the gift is conditinal that we live according to Gods word.
there may be more than one interpretation of scriptures, however there is only one mind of Christ. the scriptures are very clear on this.
edit part: i have never ever said we earn salvation. nor would i because i dont believe it. salvation is a gift. but if we choose to walk away from God thats exactly what we do. and then, like it says in my post above, God will appoint that person their portion and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. i agree salvation is a gift and we can not earn or keep it. but the gift is conditinal that we live according to Gods word.
there may be more than one interpretation of scriptures, however there is only one mind of Christ. the scriptures are very clear on this.
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Member
falling and turning are one in the same. falling into sin/ turning from God. no one would follow Jesus and not believe on him because if you dont believe on Him you are in the world. if you are going to claim 10 virgins parable is used to support it please support it- i made my claim.
yes people would follow Jesus with different levels of faith. even jehowas witnesses follow Jesus but have very different doctrine over salvation. as do many christians have different doctrines over salvation.
the then virgins parable has been discussed in this thread before, please see my posts if interested.
edit part: i have never ever said we earn salvation. nor would i because i dont believe it. salvation is a gift. but if we choose to walk away from God thats exactly what we do. and then, like it says in my post above, God will appoint that person their portion and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. i agree salvation is a gift and we can not earn or keep it. but the gift is conditinal that we live according to Gods word.
conditional gifts? i dont think anyone on earth would call something he has to work on as gift. walk with me and ill give u a gift? if u dont ill take it away.
hmm
that certainly includes a price. even high one. sounds like fulltime job to keep that "gift"
not even weekend days off or holidays nor retirement. but great commitment if one would ensure to have that "gift"
there may be more than one interpretation of scriptures, however there is only one mind of Christ. the scriptures are very clear on this.
right, you have the right interpreation. of course
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Member
quote:
conditional gifts? i dont think anyone on earth would call something he has to work on as gift. walk with me and ill give u a gift? if u dont ill take it away.
hmm
end quote.
thats not what i am saying.
what i am saying is i could give you a gift. and you could simply turn and walk away. you can refuse my gift.
another quote:
yes people would follow Jesus with different levels of faith. even jehowas witnesses follow Jesus but have very different doctrine over salvation. as do many christians have different doctrines over salvation.
end quote.
doctorine dosent save you. belief on Jesus Christ does. the measure of faith unto salvation is given unto man.
the gift of eternal life is a gift. however there is a standard of living that goes with it. if you dont adhear to this standard then you forfiet it. you walk away. Jesus Christ is the way. if we are adopted into this Holy family we inherit all things thru Christ. Including righteousness. How then can we believe that we wanna choose another way, that is NOT Christ, who is the way, who is our rock will lead us anywhere but destruction? I wouldnt force my gift upon you if you didnt want it. Neither will God. thats what free will is. a choice to choose life and good or death and cursing.
conditional gifts? i dont think anyone on earth would call something he has to work on as gift. walk with me and ill give u a gift? if u dont ill take it away.
hmm
end quote.
thats not what i am saying.
what i am saying is i could give you a gift. and you could simply turn and walk away. you can refuse my gift.
another quote:
yes people would follow Jesus with different levels of faith. even jehowas witnesses follow Jesus but have very different doctrine over salvation. as do many christians have different doctrines over salvation.
end quote.
doctorine dosent save you. belief on Jesus Christ does. the measure of faith unto salvation is given unto man.
the gift of eternal life is a gift. however there is a standard of living that goes with it. if you dont adhear to this standard then you forfiet it. you walk away. Jesus Christ is the way. if we are adopted into this Holy family we inherit all things thru Christ. Including righteousness. How then can we believe that we wanna choose another way, that is NOT Christ, who is the way, who is our rock will lead us anywhere but destruction? I wouldnt force my gift upon you if you didnt want it. Neither will God. thats what free will is. a choice to choose life and good or death and cursing.
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Member
quote:
conditional gifts? i dont think anyone on earth would call something he has to work on as gift. walk with me and ill give u a gift? if u dont ill take it away.
hmm
end quote.
thats not what i am saying.
what i am saying is i could give you a gift. and you could simply turn and walk away. you can refuse my gift.
so instead of turning away we accept that gift. no problem then.
Member
is "Once Saved Always Saved" lethal poison to your soul?
i know it is because it turns grace into a license for immorality and makes you feel secured even whilst dwelling in willful sin which will always damn you to hell if you do not repent of it.
I voted "no" not because I believe in OSAS as it is viewed, but because salvation is both an event - saying it verbally (Ro 10:9) - and a process (Php 2:12-13) and only God knows whether the person's proclamation is permanent and irrevocable.
SLE
Member
so instead of turning away we accept that gift. no problem then.
amen brother. i think maybe you are still convinced in osas, and i am not. but thats ok. we got the same daddy. i love you man, and i enjoyed this convo. it helped bring things out in word for me. i aint always strong with words.
Member
here is a couple more "ifs" from john 15:
Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love, even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
and...
Joh 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
those ifs sure do put osas in check.
Amen Eddieb!
i sure love your comment! i love it so much because it is the Truth!
O Hallelujah!
Glory to God!
It's great that you help to defend the Truth!
Take care,
DutchChristian
Member
yes people would follow Jesus with different levels of faith. even jehowas witnesses follow Jesus but have very different doctrine over salvation. as do many christians have different doctrines over salvation.
Hello Jari,
Jehova's witnesses do not follow Jesus they follow the watchtower organisation and a false God! They deny Jesus Christ is GOD! They are not saved if they deny the Lord Jesus! Jehova's witness have a form of works salvation! Beware!
Be careful not to fall into ecumenical compromise.
There is only 1 Truth!
Glory to God!
Take care,
DutchChristian
Member
Jehova's witnesses do not follow Jesus they follow the watchtower organisation and a false God! They deny Jesus Christ is GOD! They are not saved if they deny the Lord Jesus! Jehova's witness have a form of works salvation! Beware!
i agree. but my point is our faith isnt valid either unless God thinks so.
now i hope we all believe in Jesus as our savior and are born again which is simple thing. But we are only saved if we have accepted the simple message in faith. otherwise we are just followers of Jesus without salvation. if we havent believed in the Gospel. only God sees each of our heart and can tell us if we are His, if we have accepted Jesus as our savior. then if we have done so i believe we are saved for good.
Member
We are saved for good as long as we continue to believe (have Faith) into The Lord Jesus Christ and keep His commandments until the end. We ourselves must not walk away from our salvation: The Lord Jesus Christ! If you walk away from Him (unbelief, rebellion, apostacy) or deny Him you just denied your salvation, so you need to repent! We must continue to follow Him! If you fall into sin you need to repent.
Here is another example: a backslider is someone who has fallen away in his sins, and is in darkness away from God and needs to go back to the Father in repentance: Just like the story of the prodigal son, the lost son came back afterwards and got saved again.
Luke 15:12-24
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Now ask yourself this question: why would this part be in the word of God, if you could never be lost again?
Here is another example: a backslider is someone who has fallen away in his sins, and is in darkness away from God and needs to go back to the Father in repentance: Just like the story of the prodigal son, the lost son came back afterwards and got saved again.
Luke 15:12-24
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Now ask yourself this question: why would this part be in the word of God, if you could never be lost again?
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Member
we go lost like sheep and spiritually dead. still always the Lord's i believe.
rom 8:13
if we would then lost salvation it wouldn't be of grace but work.
Hi Jari,
Yes i agree with the first part of your comment. That is why the verse says:
Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
You see the father still knew him and calls him: "my son" but he was dead and lost, and not in the kingdom of his father anymore as he left the kingdom by himself.
It was exactly the fathers grace that he welcomed his son again with open arms, that is not of works it is the grace of the father to give him the best robe and give him a ring. The father had mercy on the son, so that is grace and not works as the son did not do anything to earn the fathers love back again except to repent and come back to the father again, seen in verses: 18,19 and 21 that is not works that is repentance.
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Member
but if you put condition on salvation, like repentance or resisting temptations then its works not of grace.
it is the grace that gives victory over sin.
law only condemns and some line would need to be drawn. but only line seems to be faith.
Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. (NIV)
Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. (NIV)
Take care now,
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