Is it faith alone??

[brakelite]

Hello brakelite.

You said, "No, not quite David. I do agree that salvation is available only through the gospel,
however, I may include in the gospel certain aspects that you exclude. For example. The
gospel includes the recognition of a coming judgment."

Negative brakelite, the Gospel does not include anything extra.
I will repeat myself, you cannot become a sheep unless you
believe and confess the Gospel. Once you become a sheep
and receive the Holy Spirit you are heaven bound. Your
statement is a contradictory statement. On the one hand you
agree with the Gospel, then you extend the Gospel beyond
that which is written.

Hello again David. I noticed that you excluded the text I quoted. Revelation 14:6-12 is a last days message to be delivered to all the world by God's end-time people. It is a gospel message. An everlasting gospel message. And it includes judgment. So David, no, not beyond what is written...precisely what is written.

John 10
26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish;

You said, "I have made several references to this in recent posts, making the assertion that all must
be judged, both sheep and goats."

Negative brakelite, God seperates the sheep from the goats.
The judgement of the sheep is for the purpose of reward.
Judgement for the goats, those that reject the Gospel is
destruction.

Matthew 25
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

Sheep are those who believe the Good Shepard (Jesus).
Goats are those that ignore the Good Shepard, the Gospel.

David, Ro 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ this verse refers directly to the question of salvation. The person spoken to was condemning another....Paul is saying we all face judgment therefore we ought not judge another to declare anyones eternal destiny, condemnation or life.

You said, "The question therefore remains as to how do we produce those fruit. The answer of
course is we don't. Jesus does. So long as we abide in Him and maintain a vibrant
relationship with Him the fruit will grow. It is a natural progression. We don't need to
strive to obey God's commandments, we don't need to fret over how our performance is
progressing, all we need do is continue to hunger and thirst for Him."

Matthew 25
37...Lord, when did we see You hungry...?

Notice brakelite, that the person above was unaware
that he had in fact fed the hungry brother or sister.

No David, you need to read the parable a little more carefully. The sheep were not aware they were feeding Jesus. "When did we see thee hungry etc." I don't know about you David, but I am well aware of what I am doing by way of feeding others, clothing the naked etc.

Do you for one moment think that the judgement of God
will not be based purely on the manifestation of Love?

So now you are agreeing with me???

Love is a fruit of the Spirit, so it is logical that to receive
the Spirit one must believe the Gospel.

Precisley what I have been saying all along. Judged by our fruit.

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Ps 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

"As mentioned elsewhere, the law is a schoolmaster to direct us to our Saviour. As we
observe the law and see our shortcomings, we cling closer to our Master Who empowers
us to overcome. This is growing in grace. It is all by faith, it is all by grace, and it is all
through the shed blood of Jesus that makes it possible."

Strongly disagree with this passage brakelite.

The law was the school master for the Jews, and this
law was only effective until the arrival of the Great
Sheperd.

We Gentiles do not see our wickedness through the Jewish law.
The law was given to the Jews and the Jews only.

1 Thessalonians 1:5
for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power
and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction;...

See brakelite, the Thessalonians were Gentiles.
These Thessalonians recieved the Gospel with
full conviction in the Holy Spirit. No where does
it state that they recieved Mosaic law.

1 Thessalonians 4
2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual
immorality. This is parallel to (Acts 15).
Abstain from sexual immorality is one of the commandments.
This commandment is not one of the ten. The use of "abstain"
not "thou shall not" should make this clear to you.

True, nowhere does the scripture say we are to follow Mosaic laws. But the NT is full of instruction that Christians, both Jew and Gentile, are to obey God's Laws. Allow me to quote some from just one of Paul's letters. Note how many of the Ten Commandments Paul admonishes his Gentile Ephesian converts to obey.

Ephesians 3:17 ¶ This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, (9th commandment) speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not:(6th commandment) let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil. (All the commandments See 1 John 3:4)
28 Let him that stole steal no more: (8th commandment) but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, (3rd commandment) but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,(all the commandments) whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: (3rd, 6th, and 9th commandments).
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
1 ¶ Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. (all the commandments)
3 ¶ But fornication, (7th commadment)and all uncleanness, or covetousness,(1st, 2nd, 7th and 10th commandments) let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, (1st, 2nd, 7th, and 10th commandments) hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (This applies to believers and non- Christians.)
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 ¶ Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. (Following this advice one would be obeying the 7th commandment)
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
1 ¶ Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. (5th commandment).

You said, "Sadly, many Christians today want the rewards but are unwilling to live the life of
righteousness and holiness that God does require. God will not change a heart if the
owner of said heart is unwilling to have Him change it. God imposes Himself on no-one.
It is to him who hungers and thirsts for righteousness that will be filled. Such teaching I
know is unpopular today. Very few are willing to give up their sinful selfish lifestyles.
They claim Christ, they go to church every week, they may even witness to others. But if
they are living lives contrary to sound doctrine and holy living their faith is dead, their
worship meaningless, their devotions empty, their professions of faith hypocrisy."

Yet again brakelite I must disagree with the prognosis.

It all comes down to the Gospel, if a person believes
and receives the Holy Spirit. Then that person will be
saved, they have become a sheep. Sheep listen to the
Master's voice, sheep follow the master.

If a person listens to the Gospel but does not accept
Jesus Christ and does not receive the Holy Spirit, then
said person is a hairy goat and produces the works of the
flesh.

It is not that we live a righteous life, it is that we
receive the righteousness of Christ. Our clothes
are white in Christ, in Him alone. All is from above
and I mean all. By faith alone, in Christ alone.

Please tell me how one can receive the righteousness of Christ and not live a righteous life?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Please tell me how one can receive the righteousness of Christ and not live a righteous life?

The life that Christ brings is bigger than our linear timeline here on earth so a righteous life is not about doing,it is about believing that the word has been made flesh.
How that plays out in our linear time bound lives is going to depend many other factors including our effort in seeking and knocking.

It would be correct to say that a human can walk because humans are designed to walk.Infants are humans though and they can't walk and there are other factors that can prevent a design from doing it's job.

A brand new car won't run right off the factory floor if no one puts gas in it.If the car never moves an inch in ten years it is still a car.A new creature in Christ should mature in God's works and not his own.
I have found that having someone with faith praying for you can make a huge difference.

 

[bgsda]

Heelo. Thiscrosshurts you said having someone pray for you can make a diffence it can i agree. But i believe if im in need, lets say homeless would i want someone to just pray for me or to actually show some works and actually helping me like give me shelter or food. See how faith and works work.
You can pray for a homeless person all u want, thats good, but without lifting up a hand what is that worth to that person?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Heelo. Thiscrosshurts you said having someone pray for you can make a diffence it can i agree. But i believe if im in need, lets say homeless would i want someone to just pray for me or to actually show some works and actually helping me like give me shelter or food. See how faith and works work.
You can pray for a homeless person all u want, thats good, but without lifting up a hand what is that worth to that person?

Of course if it is within our power we should help as long as it is not to the persons or other innocent persons hurt.
The works of God are believing on the one whom he sent.To help a homeless or any hurting person is the least we can do as worthless servants.

Believing on the one whom God sent means believing in the finished work of the one God sent.

Proverbs 12:14 A man shall be satisfied with good by the fruit of his mouth: and the recompence of a man's hands shall be rendered unto him.
Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Hosea 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the fruit of our lips.

I don't think that faith is an easy thing to accomplish or we we see more people walking on water,if it requires more than mountain moving,sea walking faith then it's not going to go well for many.

Sin literally means "missing the mark" and in the new covenant it is defined as anything that is not of faith.
So the mark is belief in the one whom God sent.I would not have faith to go steal something or hurt someone but with faith I can forgive someone and that is not required in any law that I know of.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[jiggyfly]

I really like what you posted Jason, esp. "So I can’t use my works in any way to justify me because they're not my works,"

Concerning Christ fulfilling the Law, it was for the sole purpose of qualifying Himself as the only spotless, sinless sacrifice. Some have attributed this as vicariously keeping the Law for Israel, but there is no scripture indicating that His perfect obedience was laid to anyone's account. He bore the curse of the Law for Israel so they could be free from the guilt of it and thus, procuring justification by His righteousness.

I just posted an article which directly relates to this issue. Hope it's not too much!

Something to add here is that the old covenant which contained the law including the ten commandments also included many blessings to who ever fulfilled the requirements. This is why the law was fulfilled by Christ rather than abolished by Him. These blessing are now part of our inheritance in Him.

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite.

I do most strongly disagree with your claim that
Paul was imposing the law upon the Gentiles.

You last reply is indicative of how you read the
scriptures and illustrates why you believe the law
is paramount in the Christian life.

Here is the first example I wish to address.

You quoted Ephesians 4:25 and paraphrased this
with the 9th Commandment.

Ephesians 4:25
"25 Wherefore putting away lying, (9th commandment) speak every man truth
with his neighbour: for we are members one of another."

I will quote the 9th commandment,

Exodus 20:16
9 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Now brakelite it appears that you understand the 9th
commandment involves a prohibition concerning "lying".

What does it mean to be a false witness against our neighbor?

Deuteronomy 19
16 "If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing,
17 "then both men in the controversy shall stand before Yahweh, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days.
18 "And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother,
19 "then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you.
20 "And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you.
21 "Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

To be a false witness against our neighbor basically means to falsely accuse someone else of fault.
In the OT, false witnesses were dealt with very harshly. We see in the above verses that if a person
was found to be bearing false witness against another person, they would be given the punishment
that the other person would have received if the witness was true!

With such a righteous law, we can understand why 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses'
every matter truly was established. If anyone rose up as a false witness, they would be given
the same punishment they thought to give to their neighbor.

Brakelite, you are the expert on the ten commandments.
I do require you to explain why you see the ninth
commandment as a prohibition of lying?

Paul did not quote the Commandment you did, the
Ephesians were obviously unaware of the commandment.
Paul I believe was calling the Ephesians to truthfulness,
and putting away, not prohibiting lying in the sense
that the law does as you interpret it.

Am very short of time at the moment brakelite, I will
deal with every line of your last post as time permits.

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite.

Following on from the previous post.

Your paraphrase in line 26 of Ephesians 4,

26 Be ye angry, and sin not6th commandment) let not the sun go
down upon your wrath:

This is a rather dubious paraphrase, the subject of line 26 is "anger"
not killing or murder. It does appear that Paul is quoting Jesus rather
than the sixth commandment. Here brakelite read this,

Matthew 5:21-24
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder;
and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that
everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment;
whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says,
‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at
the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother,
and then come and offer your gift…”

Anger is not a crime within Mosaic law, why did you
quote commandment number six?

Are you quoting from some textbook?

 

[Christ4Ever]

Peace my brother!
Sorry it's taken me so long in reviewing Part 2 (#256). Weakness physically and spiritually abounds in me here lately. I noticed some other postings as well, but multi-tasking as I get older doesn't come as easy anymore and want to keep to finishing all three parts, that you have so graciously taken the time to put together.

To further expand my statement about when we screw up, what if a Christian screws up for most of His life? I'm sure you'll agree that such a person would be condemned by some of those in the works + faith camp, who, seeing nothing but screw-ups, failures and apparently rotten fruit in his life, would pronounce his faith to be in vain, that he is not,and probably never was, a believer in the first place. Etc.! However, the ultimate and ONLY work that matters in the believer's life is that he continue to trust in Christ's complete and soul-saving righteousness, which is wrought through His shed blood, death, burial and resurrection, and nothing else.

I bolded and underlined your point. Failure to continue to do so would then be what? Separation from Christ which is my point exactly.

You see, we as Christians tend to always look at the present results (and at appearances), while Christ always looks at and is concerned with the end result. Many Christians will be as brands plucked from the fire, entering heaven the hard way, while others will breeze in to the kingdom, so to speak. So I will venture to say that the former group bring God as much, or even more glory than those who have been "good", productive Christians all their lives, faithful movers and shakers that have spent their talents to the max. This is why I believe we shouldn't look at and judge others' Christian walk with God. What we see in the present is not synonymous with what God sees as the end result.

You might rephrase the first sentence a bit. We are a goal oriented people. Christ is concerned with all time phases of our existence or He won't not have spent time on issues like sin and ones behavior.

I believe that God will find a way to bring home all who have faith in and believe in Him. Whereas I suspect some Christians think that not to be the case, that it is up to how we perform down here that determines where we go when we leave this earth.

Agreed. I bolded what I also believe to be true as well. We agree that works is a separate issue when dealing with the subject of salvation.

Regarding, again, the unproductive servant parable, is the gospel message, "use your talents, or else"? The "else" being loss of salvation?

If the use of servant in the parable is reflective of a saved person. Then the answer must be yes you can lose your salvation. If the servant or the parable is not then the answer must be no.

Can I lose my salvation if I don't work? If so, how much work would be needed to keep it? No one in the faith + works camp ever answers that question. Why?

I asked those very same question myself in other postings and have received no responses. (shrug)

My personal belief that it can't get answered, is because no matter what we do we will always fall short of the glory of God. It would seem to me that it would put into question that His death on the cross was sufficient unto the task. Why would His death have been necessary if works were sufficient? This type of thought would make salvation a two part requirement and diminish His death in half. I would always have the question of the sufficiency of the death of Christ on the Cross with me especially since we are chosen by God.
2 Thessalonians 2:13

If we see the Cross as only atonement we will lose sight of so much more when it comes to the Cross. It's where we begin, and continue forward in our new lives, but also reflective of God's Love. Blessed be His name!

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I think that statement is more profound than it looks on the surface, as any atheist's actions towards the gospel attest that it is a very hard work to BELIEVE. So believing is faith and a work!!

Shaky ground on this one. I see this referencing God's work and not our own! Otherwise the faith that is generated is due to our work and if that be the case, then works becomes a viable alternative to Salvation by Faith alone. However, I know what you trying to say, and agree :thumbs_up

Except with a few items in which I made comments, 2 has come out pretty clean brother.
Now Part 3 to review!!!!
YBIC
C4E

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite.

What was the following reference?

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, (3rd commandment)
but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Here is the 3rd commandment;

3 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain,
for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

What is the connection between "corrupt communication"
and vain use of the Lord's name?

You have lost me on this one.

 

[David777]

Still battling through your previous post brakelite.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking,
be put away from you, with all malice: (3rd, 6th, and 9th commandments).

I am in utter disbelief at the references you used.

Listing of the commandments 3, 6, and 9.

3 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold

him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

6 You shall not murder.

9 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

I am not sure how you associate these commandments
with the above mentioned fleshly traits?

If this is how you understand the commandments,
I am at a loss to deal with your strange theology.

Have you ever thought of a career as an illusionist,
they are masters of sleight of hand.

 

[Christ4Ever]

May this find you brother in possession of that peace that goes beyond worldly understanding.

I understand the point you're making. I am not against being a productive Christian, what I am against is the concept put forth by many, that if we aren't productive it means we aren't saved.

Exactly right! Productivity is relative as well. What might seem productive for one might not be for another. Gifts are different for each, which might give the impression to those outside looking in, as if nothing is being done by that person to further the Kingdom of God.

Regarding being comfortable, I am comfortable that God has given me eternal life, which is wrought by grace through the faith He has given me. I am comfortable with the notion that I have no righteousness apart from that which Christ has imparted to me.

Amen!

I am comfortable with the notion that Mother Teresa was not made righteous by even one small or large work she did. Neither are we made righteous (which means saved) by any work we do. I don't know what faith she had, but her works didn't enter in to it.

Agreed.

So why so much emphasis on works? Where is the emphasis on our Lord, JESUS CHRIST? Can you imagine taking the staggering ramifications of the WORK Jesus did for us on the cross (so we wouldn't have to work, like our O.T., old covenant ancestors had to) and saying, "yeah, but it wasn't enough"? I think that would be a faith + works kind of attitude.

If you mean in regards to Salvation, then I would agree. I don't believe that the atoning sacrifice of the Lord as a negation of works in total.

Yes, I know, those in the faith/works camp insist they understand and believe that we are only saved by grace through faith, and say that works don't save us. Yet by their actions they show that that is not the case. It's always a case of, "I believe in grace only, BUT......."; the "but" being a long laundry list of why works need to be manifested and apparent in our lives, otherwise we should have our salvation questioned.

Should we say, "Thank you Lord for saving me, now I will do my part by working to keep saved"? Does God require something in exchange from me?

Salvation was never a transaction, it is always a gift. And if we "work" to keep saved, by adding works to faith, it turns grace into a transaction. Grace is the only way we receive salvation, works are simply a way of showing the world we are saved, because they can't see into our heart to know of the saving faith that is in it.

As with any gift, doesn't it manifest a change? I do believe that this change which occurs in a believer is ongoing. It also, involves guidance and prompting by the Holy Spirit.

As with any gift, cannot the recipient choose to give it back? This does not have to be seen as a transaction. As I stated before "I or you might never see the condition in which this might happen, because we don't see it as a possibility in our lives (I pray for our continued faithfulness in Him.), but it doesn't mean that it will not happen or has not happened to someone."

Do you have to think about going to church? How about being kind to a neighbor? Or being Christ-like? Are these conscious actions, or subconscious actions? Are they effortless, or done with effort? If they are conscious actions that require effort, or forethought, then maybe, just maybe, they are works of the flesh disguised as works of the spirit.

Actually in regards to going to church I do have to think about it. The church I go to is border line Emergent which makes it most difficult.

As far as "then maybe, just maybe" is really saying they are. Habits of behavior take time. If this were not the case scriptural admonitions towards focusing on change and what changes they should be, would not then be needed. It would occur naturally without effort, either in practice or study. You identified the adversaries within us correctly as flesh and spirit, which are in battle, however, even though the victory has happened, the individual battle each of us faces rages on as it did in Paul, even as he penned/dictated the epistles.

When we are born again we become a new creation, with the old passed away. We don't become new creations that need to try to act new, we act new because we are new. What's my point? Simply, why would we need to strive to act differently - ie: strive to do good works - if we are different?

I believe you answered your own question, in identifying the flesh and spirit.

Did you worry about your "works" before you were saved? So why do you worry about them now that you are?

Salvation = worry? Salvation = stress? Salvation = burden? Salvation = performance? Salvation = work, or else?

I'm sorry, I do not believe that to be the case. Salvation = gift, rest, completion, trust, faith, believing, not any of those other things, my brother.

Kind of like Peter. I only worry when I take my eyes off of Him.

It is wonderful how God works in us to give love towards others! We are His ambassadors, and as such He works through us to accomplish His purposes for the world and to bring glory to Himself. But let me just add, if you didn't turn around to pick up the person standing in the pouring rain, it would just mean you are stiff-necked, and perhaps quenching the Spirit, but it doesn't mean you are not saved. Not to mention, what you or I do, or don't do in that scenario, pertains to our potential rewards in heaven, not to our salvation.

Thanks for calling me "stiff-necked" I will add that to other things I've been called over the years either out loud or under breath!

God bless, brother!

To you as well dear brother!
Your postings have been a blessing. I'm sure not only to me but to others as well.
Now to look at some of your other responses outside of the 3 Part Paper you shared with me

 

[spirit1st]

Listen we must understand what salvation is ? It a New Spirit that cannot Sin! It made from the seed of God After the image of the last Adam Jesus christ ! It has His type mind and nature ! It cannot sin ! It just wants to please God as Jesus Did! That why He not ashamed to call us brother ! That why we are joint heirs with Him and He shares His throne with Us !


!

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Gal_4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb_10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
2Co_4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb_10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Rom_4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 1Co_15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

2Co_4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1Co_15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


Our new spirit man is made after the last adam ! all after the first adam die ! All made like the last Adam cannot die!
Joh_11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

God wanted a Family made like Jesus to share His vast kingdom with !

 

[Peace Seeker]

May this find you brother in possession of that peace that goes beyond worldly understanding.

Thank you, I'll have seconds of that!

As with any gift, doesn't it manifest a change? I do believe that this change which occurs in a believer is ongoing. It also, involves guidance and prompting by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I believe it does sooner or later, and I agree with you on all 3 of your points here.

As with any gift, cannot the recipient choose to give it back?

I've wrestled with this question before, and I thank you for bringing it up again for me to consider anew. My quick answer would be, how does one give back eternity? After all, something is either eternal, or it's not. And the gift is not eternal because we somehow make it so, based on our action of "keeping" it. We are purchased with His blood, He betroths Himself to us, and God does not divorce ("put away") - forever. I also come back to Jesus' words about how He will never leave or forsake us, and those in 1 Corinthians 1:8.

"Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ".

This does not have to be seen as a transaction.

By transaction I was just making the point that we have nothing to bring to the table, so if we try to it would be much like we were transacting with God.

Actually in regards to going to church I do have to think about it. The church I go to is border line Emergent which makes it most difficult.

I know what you mean. It's hard to find a church that uncompromisingly preaches the bible.

As far as "then maybe, just maybe" is really saying they are. Habits of behavior take time. If this were not the case scriptural admonitions towards focusing on change and what changes they should be, would not then be needed. It would occur naturally without effort, either in practice or study. You identified the adversaries within us correctly as flesh and spirit, which are in battle, however, even though the victory has happened, the individual battle each of us faces rages on as it did in Paul, even as he penned/dictated the epistles.

I agree with everything you said here.

Originally Posted by Peace Seeker It is wonderful how God works in us to give love towards others! We are His ambassadors, and as such He works through us to accomplish His purposes for the world and to bring glory to Himself. But let me just add, if you didn't turn around to pick up the person standing in the pouring rain, it would just mean you are stiff-necked, and perhaps quenching the Spirit, but it doesn't mean you are not saved. Not to mention, what you or I do, or don't do in that scenario, pertains to our potential rewards in heaven, not to our salvation.

Thanks for calling me "stiff-necked" I will add that to other things I've been called over the years either out loud or under breath!

When I wrote "you", I wasn't necessarily meaning you, specifically. I really mean "we", or "you, plural" when I use that word. As in, "if you sin, you're in trouble", could mean either you, personally, or people in general are in trouble. The latter is how I meant it, so I am sorry that you took it as personal. :embarasse

I just want to add a final thought about works in regard to our salvation. We know of the O.T. man who was stoned for picking up sticks on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36). The Sabbath was a ceremonial law and shadow of what was to come, our rest in Jesus. Jesus is now our Sabbath rest, and when we rest in Him it is by His grace through faith. So I believe the Numbers 15 passage is warning us, as a parallel type of our Sabbath rest in Jesus (the physical sabbath pointing to our spiritual sabbath), that we are to leave those sticks (of human effort, works, etc.) alone! Our sabbath rest is 24/7, not just one day out of seven, so we cannot and must not have any works done in it. God takes this very seriously, so much so that, as God + work on the O.T. sabbath equaled physical death, so too, working during our new spiritual Sabbath rest in Jesus also = death!
Anyway, I don't know what else I can say, and I would probably just be thinking up new ways to say the same thing, so I'll leave it at that. God bless you, thanks for the very edifying posts I've had with you!

 

[jiggyfly]

I just want to add a final thought about works in regard to our salvation. We know of the O.T. man who was stoned for picking up sticks on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36). The Sabbath was a ceremonial law and shadow of what was to come, our rest in Jesus. Jesus is now our Sabbath rest, and when we rest in Him it is by His grace through faith. So I believe the Numbers 15 passage is warning us, as a parallel type of our Sabbath rest in Jesus (the physical sabbath pointing to our spiritual sabbath), that we are to leave those sticks (of human effort, works, etc.) alone! Our sabbath rest is 24/7, not just one day out of seven, so we cannot and must not have any works done in it. God takes this very seriously, so much so that, as God + work on the O.T. sabbath equaled physical death, so too, working during our new spiritual Sabbath rest in Jesus also = death!
Anyway, I don't know what else I can say, and I would probably just be thinking up new ways to say the same thing, so I'll leave it at that. God bless you, thanks for the very edifying posts I've had with you!

Very good Peace Seeker! When we go back and look at the shadow it should reveal this truth and we should embrace it and allow our thinking to be adjusted to this simple truth. The first glimpse of Pentecost given to Israel through Moses was a shadow of what was to come and was prophesied by Joel. The Pentecost was experienced in even more fullness when Father established a new covenant with us through His Son. God gave Israel precise instruction on how to celebrate Pentecost by ceasing from all work and this too was a shadow of what was to come. In this new covenant we are to cease from all our works of righteousness and rest in Christ's works at the cross to make us right with Father.

 

[David777]

Romans 6

4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ
was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be
in the likeness of His resurrection,

6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be
done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Love is the work of the Holy Spirit, we must die daily to ourselves
to see this love manifested. We do not become fixated by our own sin
by gazing at the law. Rather we submit to Christ and the power of the
Holy Spirit. "for he who has died is freed from sin."

 

[meldieching]

It's not really about Salvation, given a choice, one can easily see that it's by faith and not works. Also, it's not faith or works, rather faith/works.

 

[RJ]

It's not really about Salvation, given a choice, one can easily see that it's by faith and not works. Also, it's not faith or works, rather faith/works.

That's right faith first then works. With this type of faith, you are indwelled with the spirit of Jesus Christ. He is the vine, we are the branch, it is his fruit or works through us. Without the the works of the spirit through us we have no faith.