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Is God a Cessationist?

Discussion in 'Evidence & Prophecy' started by Jesus_is_LORD, Jul 7, 2017.

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  1. Talk a look at this video and please let me know your thoughts.
    I'm seeking answers, not presenting a position.
    Thanks.

    -WNL
     
  2. The first thing that strikes me about this guy is his sensationalist commentary and tone, and his dramatic hand gestures.

    Rev 22:18; I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
    Rev 22:19; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

    There is a big difference between saying everything we need is in the Bible and saying God doesn't need to speak to anyone anymore.

    Mark 16:17; "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
    Mark 16:18; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

    Jesus never said when I'm gone, it's all over. You won't be able to do miracles anymore. He said these signs will accompany those who believe.
    In fact, if God can't do miracles... why bother praying at all. If God isn't going to do anything and he doesn't change anything or anybody
    anyway, why bother talking to Him?

    This guy talks about people who say "God told me to tell you....(this and that)". Before Jesus died we didn't have access to the throne,
    we couldn't talk to God, we had to go through prophets. Now we can talk to Him ourselves. ( Heb 4:16; ) The last prophet(ess) mentioned in the Bible is in Luke 2, when Jesus was born.
    We have been adopted as sons of God. What father doesn't listen to his children?

    We can have a repair guide and owners manual for a car that tells us how to fix it if it breaks. But just because it might break more
    than once doesn't mean we need a new manual every time it does.

    The Bible is a guide, to tell us about God and how He wants us to live, but that doesn't mean He never talks to us or do anything for us
    just because we aren't to add anything to the Bible. God still works through us.. we are His hands so to speak. God may tell us
    "something new" or something specific, but He is never going to tell us anything that conflicts with the written word.
     
    Lyndle, amadeus2 and Jesus_is_LORD like this.
  3. Thanks for the response.
     
  4. I am a 'cessationist of sort', for reasons that differ from most others / the norm.

    Firstly this guy makes a weak argument for cessationism. Jesus says we must not let our left hand know what our right hand does. Jesus healed a blind man and said 'go and tell nobody'. God is not full of pride / desire to boast. The miracles stated in scripture were only stated because they needed to be. They were by no means all the miracles that took place. This is the same today.

    Having said that, God does not change. From day 1 God has wanted mankind to follow / come to Him not because of compulsion from fear or mind blowing miracles, rather a mutual love / hatred of what evil /desire for repentance.

    Miracles are always the last resort from God. We see this truth in all the incidents where miracles are mentioned in scripture. Consider the plagues and red sea parting. Would any of this have happened if Pharaoh just obeyed / listened to Moses pleading on behalf of God? Imagine he did. No miracles, none at all would be needed.

    God is humble, He is not boastful. He wants us to have the same mindset. He wants us to go to doctors. He wants us to work for our food. Of course He can heal our bodies and make money fall on our heads, but He chooses to take the least boastful route in all circumstances. He does want us to be filled with pride or treat Him like He is some kind of vending machine. I am a cessationist from day 1. Not only after the prophets and Jesus :wink:.
     
  5. I think cessationists are people who think they've been there, done that, but forget that God saves people other than themselves who didnt believe before....

    Just because you didnt witness Gods miracle doesnt mean nobody else did.
     
    Sent from a mobile device
  6. Wow, that is a powerful, slightly humorous, and insight comment. That is a point worth reflecting on.
     
  7. Oh my!

    God has been limited by men and continues to be limited by men, because He gave men dominion over certain things and He will not break or change His Word. But what is His Word? Is it only what is written in the Bible?

    "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." John 21:25

    Was not Jesus the Word of God? If He spoke any word that was not written in the Bible, was it not also the Word of God?

    As to miracles, if there are no more, what did Jesus mean with these words?

    "Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." Matt 17:20

    " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12

    "Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

    Let us not limit God by expressing our doubt, but rather let us open up God's power by believing.
     
    Jesus_is_LORD likes this.
  8. Wouldn't buy a used car from him
     
    Sent from a mobile device
    JesusGivesLifeMeaning likes this.
  9. Hello @Jesus_is_LORD ,

    I have not heard the name, 'cessationist', until now: how man likes to create categories, doesn't he?

    Wikipedia tells me that, 'cessationism is the doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the apostolic age.'

    * In answer to your question: I didn't like the speaker's voice, manner or delivery, but as to what he says, I agree absolutely., but I do not consider this to be a doctrine, just a statement of fact.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Aneska likes this.
  10. Hello again, @Jesus_is_LORD,

    The prison epistles of Paul, written after Acts 28, and the laying aside temporarily of the nation of Israel in unbelief, do not contain any reference to spiritual gifts, or miracles of any kind. (re. Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, In fact there is reference made to sickness in Pilp. 2:26,27; 2Tim. 4:20, with no record of an attempt being made to heal either man:-

    '
    Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus,
    my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier,
    but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.

    For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness,
    because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
    For indeed he was sick nigh unto death:
    but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also,
    lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
    I sent him therefore the more carefully,
    that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice,
    'and that I may be the less sorrowful.'

    (Php 2:25 -28)

    'Erastus abode at Corinth:
    but Trophimus
    have I left at Miletum sick.'
    ('2 Tim.4:20)

    * Don't you think that rather strange, if miracles of healing and spiritual gifts were still in evidence?

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  11. @complete
    Something to ponder on as well.

    Even our Lord was limited at least once in scripture. We can see why, "Belief".

    And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. Mark 6:5
    And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching. Mark 6:6
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Everybody else and of cause you as well Sister Chris.

    I'm also curious how this person feels about the effect of intercessory prayer and whether it has any legitimacy since if healing comes of this...........wouldn't it be classified as a miracle?

    Is it possible that this man might attribute the healing to the person and not God? I'm sure there are those out there who probably take credit and do not give the Glory to God, but to negate the possibility to only pre-Bible days?

    So my thought on this is that this man like others just want to put God into a box. He'll be easier to understand and explain then.

    With the Love of Christ Jesus.
    YBIC
    Nick
    <><
     
  12. Hello Nick,

    Thank you for responding to my post, I do appreciate it, and the grace with which it was composed.

    Yes, where there is unbelief nothing can be done: however in the case of Trophimus, and Epaphroditus, unbelief would not have been a problem, would it? Paul tells us that God graciously spared Epaphroditus, so he obviously had been the subject of Paul's prayers: and there is a great deal of evidence that God does, in His grace, heal in response to prayer still.

    The speaker in the video clip spoke of men who are recorded in Scripture as having performed miracles, but that puts the attention on the man through whom these miracles were done, instead of on God by whose power the miracles were achieved.

    God's ability to perform miracles has not diminished, but they were done throughout the Acts as confirmation of the witness of the Apostles testimony, concerning the person and work of Christ, and for no other reason.

    Spiritual gifts also were given as a foretaste of the millennial Kingdom, which was to come with the return of Christ as King, if Israel had come to repentance and believed in Him as their promised Messiah. When Israel failed to do so, the need for them ceased, and they await a future day.

    Thank you, Nick,
    With love in Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Christ4Ever likes this.
  13. Sorry for taking so long in responding sister. I try not to rush things in posting.
    Not that I'm a patient person mind you! ;-)

    That Mercy is according to His Sovereign Will makes it difficult for us to understand, because for some the answer is "Yes", others "No", and even still "Not Yet".

    For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." Romans 9:15

    I agree that God has purpose for the miracles that have happened. I just don’t limit them to confirming an individual’s authority because it was pre-biblical time or that is only puts the attention on the vessel and not God even though the world may do so.

    Simon kind of saw it as you say. I do believe he was missing the larger picture.

    And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! Acts 8:18-20

    It seems that for some now a day’s, this God given gift was only for pre-biblical times. ;-) I would not reason to limit why God does what He does, but trust that it is for our good, because we do love Him.

    Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit [is], because He makes intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose. Romans 8:27-28

    Now if you are correct that it is to bring attention to the person in an authoritative sense. Then it is still valid that miracles are happening and the man in the video is incorrect. The position being that since we now have a Bible, it is no longer needed.

    Do we have the Bible? Yes, but not in every language. According to who you look to for verification we are short approximately 2,000 languages before we can say the Bible is accessibility in one’s own language. The Bible According to Wycliffe Bible Translators, there is a need for 2200 more languages to have Bible printed for. Taking the usual estimation of 6600 languages in the world, we would say about 4000-5000 languages so far.

    What’s a missionary to do???? :)

    There are missionaries around the world who are going to areas so remote that the written language as we know it might as well not exist. They in turn have to deal with devil driven healers, Shaman or Medicine Men if you will. Everything from possession, curses, etc. occurs in these peoples to the point that they are so familiar with it that “Spiritism” is a natural part of their lives. No so much for us in the civilized world ;-)

    The stories abound where missionaries have healed etc. but if this video is correct. Either all the missionaries with these testimonies are liars, or they were done by another power, not of God. What should we attribute this to? Maybe Satan is the cause? Not according to our Lord!

    Now when the Pharisees heard [it] they said, "This [fellow] does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons." But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? "And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast [them] out? Therefore they shall be your judges. "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Matthew 12:24-28

    You might be partially correct that it was and I believe still is, used as an authoritative confirmation of a person’s Ministry, but I just won’t say it doesn’t happen in today’s time. There are some Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus from Africa here at TJ who can confirm/testify of the Supernatural Healings, Exorcisms or in truth, the work of the Holy Spirit through people/tribes in their countries/villages. I won’t limit it to Africa either. The Holy Spirit is still moving and working through the Body of Christ and the World.

    Always to the Glory of God dear Sister! Alleluia.

    God bless you Sister Chris.
    With the Love of Christ Jesus.
    YBIC
    Nick
    <><
     
  14. Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen
    Ephesians 3:20-21

    The power that worketh in us is the power that raised our Lord from the dead!
    Lets not limit God.....He never changes.

    @Jesus_is_LORD
     
  15. I agree 100%!
     
  16. @Fragrant Grace
    @Jesus_is_LORD

    Hello there, both,

    There is no question of limiting God: and the fact that the power that works in us is the power that raised our Lord from the dead, though wonderfully true, has nothing to do with the subject of the OP. There is no doubt that God can and does perform miracles. What is in question in this thread, is whether spiritual gifts have ceased.

    * The evidence of our eyes would say, 'No', for tongue speaking etc., seem to be increasing; but it is not our eyes that we are to trust in this matter, but the evidence of Scripture.

    'Charity never faileth:
    but whether there be
    prophecies, they shall fail;
    whether there be
    tongues, they shall cease;
    whether there be
    knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    But when that which is perfect is come,
    then that which is in part shall be done away.
    When I was a child, I spake as a child,
    I understood as a child,
    I thought as a child:
    but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    For now we see through a glass, darkly;
    but then face to face:
    now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
    And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three;
    but the greatest of these is charity.'

    (1 Cor 13:8-13)

    * God never changes, I agree: but the testimony of Scripture is that God's dealings with mankind: in manner and administration, does change (Hebrews 1:1,2; Romans 3:21; Col.1:26) .

    * Tongue speaking, prophecies, the word of knowledge, ceased, as the testimony of the book of Acts, and subsequent epistles give witness to. (Eph. Col. Phil. 1&2 Tim. Titus and Philemon)

    Thank you.
    With love in Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Aneska and KingJ like this.
  17. Forgive me, 'Jesus_is_LORD', for I mistakenly addressed my post to you, with 'Fragrant Grace', instead of, 'JesusGivesLifeMeaning'.

    * All lovely names to ponder on, though. :smile:

    With love in Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  18. 1 Cor 13:8; Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
    1 Cor 13:9; For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
    1 Cor 13:10; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

    If the prophecy and tongues are gone, then the knowledge is also done away with too. You can't separate verses half and half.
    But notice it says here, these things won't be done away with until "the perfect comes".
    What does that mean? Well Jesus was perfect, but He came, died, and was resurrected long before 1 Corinthians was written.
    (I don't think it's an accident that 1 Cor 12, comes before 1 Cor 13) So obviously it isn't talking about Jesus here.

    The perfect doesn't come until Jesus conquers the evil in this world and gives the keys to the kingdom back to God the Father.

    1 Cor 15:24; then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
    1 Cor 15:25; For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
    1 Cor 15:26; The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
    1 Cor 15:27; For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
    1 Cor 15:28; When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
     
    Fragrant Grace likes this.
  19. Thanks for the reply and for sharing.
     

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