Greatness4life
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God write ups...... Keep it up friend..
God bless you more and more
God bless you more and more
In-Depth Study On Romans Chapters 6-8
- Thread starter Cross-Faith
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Hello and welcome Barny. It seems like you said we dont have a sinful nature. Please correct me if im wrong. Are you telling me your so full of the Holy Spirit you dont sin. If you do sin well you have a sinful nature. And iif you dont sin daily well thats great.
Thiscrosshurts
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The one born of dust has a sinful nature,the one born of heaven does not.
We can choose to believe we are one or the other or both or neither.
Our imagination is a form of personal reality so if I don't think I am the one born from heaven then I am the other one who uses a sin management system.
Whatever is not of faith is sin so you can walk in faith and love and focus on things above and then you rob sin of it's big mouth at least.I can't focus on things above while I plan out robberies,adultery,lies or other things that hurt people.There are many sins done in ignorance that you will never see unless you focus on things above and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal them to you.
To the pure all things are pure so alcohol use can be a sin to the person who thinks it is and drinks anyway but it is not a sin if you don't believe it is so sin is not some set rules in a book.
It is relative to other factors like time,space and matter are relative to each other.
So sin is relative to maturity,faith and the heart.
I would be interested in hearing Barney's take on the question I just posted to examine and refine my own thoughts on it.
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Hi bgsda,
We may be defining labels differently than each other, hence once that is cleared up we can understand each other better.
"Sinful nature" is a label that seems to be used in the context of the term used in scripture "walking according to the flesh", hence I'm assuming this is what it refers to. And we see in scripture that Christians in fact are not in the flesh but we are in the Spirit instead, Rom 8:9.
As for Christians still doing things wrong, that is the reality as we live in an imperfect physical world. This physical is not perfect. But for Christians this is not how we are determined to be righteous. Our righteousness is by faith, Rom 4:5.
As for the term "sin", this does not apply to Christians. Christ dealt with sin on the cross, hence those in Christ have "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1) and "cannot sin" (1John 3:9).
How we define "sin" is important. It helps us understand scripture.
Unfortunately man's traditional definitions of "sin" are ambiguous. Whilst we all fail to live perfect lives in this physical life, this imperfection is not defined as sin in scripture.
Instead, God has given us specific definitions which are the only ones to use to understand scripture.
God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:
1:Mark 3:29 Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This sin will not be forgiven. Christians do not commit this sin.
2:John 16:9 Unbelief in Jesus. This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin either.
3: 1John5:17 “all unrighteousness is sin”. Christians are righteous in Christ so here we do not sin.
4: 1John3:4 “Sin is transgression of the law”. This is breaking the 10 commandments resulting in a death penalty for transgression.
Christians cannot be accused of sin here as we are not under the law of sin and death.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets free from the law of sin and death, (Rom 8:2). We're "not under the law" (Gal 5:18) as "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" (Rom 10:4)
Regarding the law of sin and death it should be noted that:
“whatever the law says it says to those who are under it” (rom 3:19).
“the law was not made for a righteous person (Christians), but for…the ungodly and for sinners” (1Tim 1:9).
“where there is no law there is no transgression (SIN)” (Rom 4:15).
We know sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross.
And “Our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed”Rom 6:6.
Hence we see in 1Pet 4:1 “Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him. (Rom 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin”.
And note Rom 3:25: "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,"
It was only our past sins that were forgiven. That means there is no more forgiveness of sin after this as sin was finally dealt with.
And this confirms:
1Pet 4:1 that we have 'ceased from sin'.
1John3:9 “Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed (Christ) remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God”, Rom 6:2 asks “How shall we that are dead to sin, live in it any longer?”.
And just as a reminder, we still see that Christians are not perfect in behavior, but, this is not defined as "sin" in scripture. And as children of God we are chastised for our wrong.
Finally, consider 1Pet 4:18 “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear”.
Clearly there are 2 different groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous (and saved).
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner (unsaved).
Either we are righteous (in Christ) OR we are sinners. We can't be both.
Truly Jesus set us free from sin (John 8:36).
We have been justified by God so who can lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? Rom 8:33
Put simply, Christians "cannot sin" (1John 3:9).
The one born of dust has a sinful nature,the one born of heaven does not.
We can choose to believe we are one or the other or both or neither.
Our imagination is a form of personal reality so if I don't think I am the one born from heaven then I am the other one who uses a sin management system.
Whatever is not of faith is sin so you can walk in faith and love and focus on things above and then you rob sin of it's big mouth at least.I can't focus on things above while I plan out robberies,adultery,lies or other things that hurt people.There are many sins done in ignorance that you will never see unless you focus on things above and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal them to you.
To the pure all things are pure so alcohol use can be a sin to the person who thinks it is and drinks anyway but it is not a sin if you don't believe it is so sin is not some set rules in a book it is relative to other factors like time,space and matter.
Can you commit suicide in faith?
Answerray that you not be put to the test.
I don't think it's wise to judge those who are put through it because the amount,intensity and duration of the pain one is in will certainly be a factor.
Will you go to hell for it?
Hell and Hades is from Greek mythology so no.
You will certainly end up in the grave though.
I would be interested in hearing Barney's take on the question I just posted to examine and refine my own thoughts on it.
Hi Thiscrosshurts,
Our salvation is determined by our believing on Jesus. Should we do wrong, as in the example you gave, scriptures shows that this is not what determines our salvation. It's all about believing on Jesus. Many Christians do wrong in this imperfect life but that is not what our salvation is determined by. Consider the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord". He was a criminal till the day he died, yet Jesus said to him "today you will be with me in paradise". It's grace alone, (without works of the law).
When Jesus was asked what works we should do he answered, "believe on him whom He hath sent" John 6:29.
And what is God's will that we obey?
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40
Our works of believing in Jesus shows our faith. And in believing on Jesus we are not really believing on him but on Him who sent him. John 12:44
Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.
Thiscrosshurts
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Your answer to bgsda blew me away,I've never seen it laid out that way and I can't find any flaw.
I love the simplicity of your verse combination and I don't want to complicate it but I think these three go very well together.
John 6:29. When Jesus was asked what works we should do he answered, "believe on him whom He hath sent"
John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
"whom thou hast sent" is better translated as "the one" whom thou has sent",because the term "the one" is a key.
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Sorry barny and thiscross but what in Gods name are you two talking about. Listen if you dont aknowledge your sins how can you confess or repent from them. I was totally blown away at what u posted. Explain to me this verse Jer 13:23? Or jer. 17:9? You cannot be guided by your heart or mind.
What you said reminds me of the story in Luke about the Pharasee and the publican. Remember who Jesus said was justified. We cannot in these last days even THINK for a second that we cannot sin. As Jesus said we cannot exalt ourselves. To be plain honest that is exactly what the archdeceiver wants us to think, that we cannot sin. Im sorry but you are totally wrong with what youve been taught and if you want to study this more, let me know and we can reason together.
Ireally dont want u to stay deceived. Sin still seperates us from God. Isa 59:1,2. To not aknowledge our sins will be an eternal seperation. Lets study this out together please.
What you said reminds me of the story in Luke about the Pharasee and the publican. Remember who Jesus said was justified. We cannot in these last days even THINK for a second that we cannot sin. As Jesus said we cannot exalt ourselves. To be plain honest that is exactly what the archdeceiver wants us to think, that we cannot sin. Im sorry but you are totally wrong with what youve been taught and if you want to study this more, let me know and we can reason together.
Ireally dont want u to stay deceived. Sin still seperates us from God. Isa 59:1,2. To not aknowledge our sins will be an eternal seperation. Lets study this out together please.
Rev T.S.Perkins
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Im starting to read this late night at work ill attempt to keep up with it as time allows ....Barney thank you for breaking the word down for us ..and yes Romans is the heart of it all i feel..i want to add this point..untill i had knowalge of the love God poured out on me i had no idea that i needed to repent of anything and once i had a realationship with Christ i Knew what had to be done ...ask forgivness for my transgressions and turn away from my former wicked ways .. a repentant heart should come as natural as breathing once Christ is accepted as ruler of our hearts....Rev
Hi bgsda,
Hi bgsda,
Yes, we can discuss this if you like.
However you seem to be overlooking that Jesus set us free from sin.
Rom 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin
John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free (from sin), ye shall be free indeed.
Rom 6:2 asks:
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
The answer is Christians cannot sin because His seed (Christ) is in us, 1John 3:9
Note also Rom 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were (past tense) the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (the gospel of grace) which was delivered you .
Rom 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
What is this "fruit unto holiness" that results in "everlasting life"?
1Cor 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
It's Christ, our firstfruits.
Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy:
Christ in us, the firstfruit, makes us holy, resulting in everlasting life.
Christians obey God's will as described above and also in John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:
As Christ (the firstfruit) in us makes us holy, then how can Christians be charged with "sin"? The doctrine that Christians still "sin" is not supported in scripture.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Can I suggest you read my previous post about sin again. Perhaps you have not really understood it.
Also, you spoke of confessing/repenting of "sins", for Christians.
But scripture confirms that we did this when we first received Christ. After that there is no more repentance should we fall away.
Also note how our repentance was of "dead works" of self-righteousness.
Heb 6:1-6
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Repentance is once only, as we see above.
The doctrine of repenting for the wrongs we do in this physical life is a doctrine of man and not supported in scripture.
This is also confiormed by Rom 3:25
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,"
Only past sin was remitted. Once in Christ there is no more sin. We have "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1) and we're righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), and perfected (Heb 10:14) in Christ. This is not speaking about the imperfect physical life we see. Remember the body is dead (by faith) because of sin (Rom 8:10). I'm speaking of the new creation in Christ.
Hi bgsda,
Yes, we can discuss this if you like.
However you seem to be overlooking that Jesus set us free from sin.
Rom 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin
John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free (from sin), ye shall be free indeed.
Rom 6:2 asks:
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
The answer is Christians cannot sin because His seed (Christ) is in us, 1John 3:9
Note also Rom 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were (past tense) the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (the gospel of grace) which was delivered you .
Rom 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
What is this "fruit unto holiness" that results in "everlasting life"?
1Cor 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
It's Christ, our firstfruits.
Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy:
Christ in us, the firstfruit, makes us holy, resulting in everlasting life.
Christians obey God's will as described above and also in John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:
As Christ (the firstfruit) in us makes us holy, then how can Christians be charged with "sin"? The doctrine that Christians still "sin" is not supported in scripture.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Can I suggest you read my previous post about sin again. Perhaps you have not really understood it.
Also, you spoke of confessing/repenting of "sins", for Christians.
But scripture confirms that we did this when we first received Christ. After that there is no more repentance should we fall away.
Also note how our repentance was of "dead works" of self-righteousness.
Heb 6:1-6
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Repentance is once only, as we see above.
The doctrine of repenting for the wrongs we do in this physical life is a doctrine of man and not supported in scripture.
This is also confiormed by Rom 3:25
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,"
Only past sin was remitted. Once in Christ there is no more sin. We have "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1) and we're righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), and perfected (Heb 10:14) in Christ. This is not speaking about the imperfect physical life we see. Remember the body is dead (by faith) because of sin (Rom 8:10). I'm speaking of the new creation in Christ.
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Cross-Faith
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Lesson 11
Servants Of Righteousness Not Sin
(Romans 6:16-19) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey: whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (v17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. (v18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (v19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh, for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity;even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
In these verses, Paul elaborates on his answer to the qustion in verse 15. He begins with a fundamental prinicipal concerning obedience. Simply stated, we are the servants, or bondslaves, to whatever we choose to yield ourselves. This principle holds true whether we yield ourselves to sin, which leads to death, or we yield in obedience to God which leads us o righteousness.
It is important to note there is no middle ground when it comes to dedication or yielding ourselves. According to Luke 16:13, we are faced with the decision to yield ourselves either to God or to sin. If we choose not to yield ourselves to God, we automatically dedicate ourselves to sin, although that may not be our intention. On the other hand, when we choose to dedicate ourselves to God, we cannot possibly serve sin (Galatians 5:16,17).
Based upon the obedience principle stated above, Paul reminds us that we are bondslaves to God, even though we were at one time the slaves of sin (Ephesians 2:4-10). What Paul is trying to convey is that we should thank God for committing us to the Gospel message, so we might obey it by a response of faith from the heart.
In other words, on the basis of our God-given ability to obey from the heart, we become bondslaves to the Gospel message of deliverance from the power and the penalty of sin.
That same thought is continued in verse 18, which tells us that when we were set free from our natural slavery to sin, we became a bondslave of righteousness. Taken together, verses 17 and 18 present a beautiful picture of salvation, by grace, from both the penalty and the power of sin.
The question in verse 15, therefore, proves to be absurd. Living under the grace of God instead of the law, means that we are bondslaves to righteousness, not servants of sin.
In verse 19, Paul explains he is using this reference to bondslavery because he realizes how weak we are in our natural flesh. He states that he is speaking, "after the manner of men," or "in human terms," so we can draw the comparison. Our bondslavery to God, our committment to obedience, actually brings us the highest form of freedom, namely, the liberty to serve the God of the universe. By our own free will, we leap to do God's will, as soon as we recognize it.
Continuing in verse 19, Paul makes an appeal to all believers. We are to exercise our responsibility which comes with the realization of our position in Christ. We are to continually dedicate ourselves as slaves to righteousness unto sanctification and holiness. That means we are to relinquish any right to ourselves which might exclude God. When we were dedicated to lawlessness and impurity, our behavior generated more lawlessness and impurity. Now that we are dedicated to righteousness, our behavior will generate more righteousness, to the glory of God.
Answer these questions:
Servants Of Righteousness Not Sin
(Romans 6:16-19) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey: whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (v17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. (v18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (v19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh, for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity;even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
In these verses, Paul elaborates on his answer to the qustion in verse 15. He begins with a fundamental prinicipal concerning obedience. Simply stated, we are the servants, or bondslaves, to whatever we choose to yield ourselves. This principle holds true whether we yield ourselves to sin, which leads to death, or we yield in obedience to God which leads us o righteousness.
It is important to note there is no middle ground when it comes to dedication or yielding ourselves. According to Luke 16:13, we are faced with the decision to yield ourselves either to God or to sin. If we choose not to yield ourselves to God, we automatically dedicate ourselves to sin, although that may not be our intention. On the other hand, when we choose to dedicate ourselves to God, we cannot possibly serve sin (Galatians 5:16,17).
Based upon the obedience principle stated above, Paul reminds us that we are bondslaves to God, even though we were at one time the slaves of sin (Ephesians 2:4-10). What Paul is trying to convey is that we should thank God for committing us to the Gospel message, so we might obey it by a response of faith from the heart.
In other words, on the basis of our God-given ability to obey from the heart, we become bondslaves to the Gospel message of deliverance from the power and the penalty of sin.
That same thought is continued in verse 18, which tells us that when we were set free from our natural slavery to sin, we became a bondslave of righteousness. Taken together, verses 17 and 18 present a beautiful picture of salvation, by grace, from both the penalty and the power of sin.
The question in verse 15, therefore, proves to be absurd. Living under the grace of God instead of the law, means that we are bondslaves to righteousness, not servants of sin.
In verse 19, Paul explains he is using this reference to bondslavery because he realizes how weak we are in our natural flesh. He states that he is speaking, "after the manner of men," or "in human terms," so we can draw the comparison. Our bondslavery to God, our committment to obedience, actually brings us the highest form of freedom, namely, the liberty to serve the God of the universe. By our own free will, we leap to do God's will, as soon as we recognize it.
Continuing in verse 19, Paul makes an appeal to all believers. We are to exercise our responsibility which comes with the realization of our position in Christ. We are to continually dedicate ourselves as slaves to righteousness unto sanctification and holiness. That means we are to relinquish any right to ourselves which might exclude God. When we were dedicated to lawlessness and impurity, our behavior generated more lawlessness and impurity. Now that we are dedicated to righteousness, our behavior will generate more righteousness, to the glory of God.
Answer these questions:
- Why should I consider myself to be a servant of Christ?
- Why is my choice limited to serving either God or sin?
- Why does serving sin always lead me to death?
- How can being a bondslave to God bring me freedom?
- Because of my relationship with Christ, what is my responsibility?
- How can I be certain I will generate righteousness or the glory of God?
Well once again Barny, its very hard to make a new doctrine out of ONLY what Paul writes. Remember Paul was a highly imtellectual man as Peter puts it in 2zpet. 3:15-17, I believe. We have to take everything from Gen. To Rev, since we agree right that everything points to Christ. As Christ puts it in the book of John when talking to the pharasees that everything testifies of Him.
I have some questions for you. 1) Do you believe Adam and Eve were "saved" and "freed' from sin?
2)Why did Job offer daily sacrafices, did not God say he was upright better than any man living?
3) Do you still not believe what Jeremiah17:9 and Solomon and Job wrote about our hearts being dexetfully wicked?
4)Do you honestly think that Paul, who called himself the chief of all sinners exalted himself in his mind to think that he cannot sin?
5)Book of Rev. Chpt 2 repeatedly to the 7 churches which most scholars believe are 7 diff eras in time, why would Jesus say to him who overcomes, overcomes what?
I have many more. Yes I did read your first comment, but once again stating omly what Paul says only is dangerous.
I have some questions for you. 1) Do you believe Adam and Eve were "saved" and "freed' from sin?
2)Why did Job offer daily sacrafices, did not God say he was upright better than any man living?
3) Do you still not believe what Jeremiah17:9 and Solomon and Job wrote about our hearts being dexetfully wicked?
4)Do you honestly think that Paul, who called himself the chief of all sinners exalted himself in his mind to think that he cannot sin?
5)Book of Rev. Chpt 2 repeatedly to the 7 churches which most scholars believe are 7 diff eras in time, why would Jesus say to him who overcomes, overcomes what?
I have many more. Yes I did read your first comment, but once again stating omly what Paul says only is dangerous.
Also for us to think for a second that we are holy and sinless is the opposite of a humbling experience, for me personally. Then the statement about 1John 3:4 when you said "we are no longer undr the law" so we dont have to keep it. The ten commandments points out our sins thats it, shows us how UNHOLY we are and has us running to Christ our Savior.
Paul wrote it specifically in Rom.7:7. Hope in your next reply you van serch out and find the answers. Please lets continue to study this and reason together. Remember only one of us can be right, we both cannot be right. This will determine our salvation.
Paul wrote it specifically in Rom.7:7. Hope in your next reply you van serch out and find the answers. Please lets continue to study this and reason together. Remember only one of us can be right, we both cannot be right. This will determine our salvation.
Thiscrosshurts
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Jesus became sin and went to the grave,Jesus resurrected so what happened to sin?
What God has cleansed let no man call unclean.This is not just Paul's doctrine.
Remember in the book of acts that Peter speaking of the conversion of Cornelius and said:
Acts 10:28 He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.
Peter had only begun speaking and the Holy Spirit fell on the entire house and no one had repented of anything.
They had not even heard the message yet and became temples of God.
Could the Holy Spirit reside on a sinful unrepentant unbeliever before Jesus finished his work?
Paul had a similar experience and reported this back to the apostles:
Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
I'm not sure it's humble to test God.
Hi bgsda,
Just a quick reply as I'm short of time. My Internet Service Provider is not giving me good coverage at the moment hence my previous few attempts to answer have failed. I'll get back when I get more time and hopefully with good internet coverage.
Just a quick reply as I'm short of time. My Internet Service Provider is not giving me good coverage at the moment hence my previous few attempts to answer have failed. I'll get back when I get more time and hopefully with good internet coverage.
Hi bgsda,
Here's hoping this post gets through as I still have that random coverage with my internet service.
Regarding Adam and was he saved consider what scripture says.
Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
1Cor 5:22
in Adam all die
And yes, mankind's heart is wicked. But in Christ we now have a new heart.
In 1Tim 1:15 Paul's claim of being "chief sinner" referred to his past. Note the context of it in verse 13 where he speaks of how he formerly was a blasphemer, persecutor and injurious. As he is no longer doing this then how can he still be chief sinner? Hence his claim was in regards to humanity's record of sinners. But once in Christ we are no longer sinners.
Regarding Revelations 2&3 speaking of those who overcome, how do we overcome?
1John 5:4,5
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
And this is God's will, that we believe in Jesus, John 6:40.
Also our works are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
And this is how we overcome, as spoken of in Revelations.
Also, take note of Rev 3:15,16
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
This is referring to those who mix grace with works of the law. Such say they're saved by grace but then they add obedience/works of the law with it and determine righteousness/salvation by it. In Rev 3:19 we see God calls for such people to repent.
Grace and works of the law cannot be mixed together.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Our works are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
To add obedience/works of the law to this is being lukewarm.
I agree with you that the law shows how unholy mankind is. And we agree that it brings us to Christ our Savior.
Gal 3:24,25 says that the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come we are no longer under a tutor.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom 3:28
You seem intent on continuing to determine a Christian's righteousness by obedience/works of the law. But this is contrary to scripture. If we rebuild those things we destroyed (righteousness by works of the law) we make ourselves transgressors/sinners, Gal 2:18. This is unbelief (sin, John 16:9) in Christ's finished work on the cross.
If we continue under the law determining righteousness by it, then we make ourselves transgressors/sinners (Gal 2:18). Remember that to offend in one point of the law makes you guilty of all of it, James 2:10.
If we sin willfully (continue under the law thus making ourselves transgressors/sinners, Gal 2:18) after having the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace), there remains no more sacrifice for sins...Heb 10:26-29.
In Christ we cannot sin, 1John 3:9 (this is not speaking of the physical we see, as it's dead because of sin anyway,Rom 8:10). But our new creation in Christ is holy, righteous, perfected, and cannot sin, in him.
Here's hoping this post gets through as I still have that random coverage with my internet service.
Regarding Adam and was he saved consider what scripture says.
Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
1Cor 5:22
in Adam all die
And yes, mankind's heart is wicked. But in Christ we now have a new heart.
In 1Tim 1:15 Paul's claim of being "chief sinner" referred to his past. Note the context of it in verse 13 where he speaks of how he formerly was a blasphemer, persecutor and injurious. As he is no longer doing this then how can he still be chief sinner? Hence his claim was in regards to humanity's record of sinners. But once in Christ we are no longer sinners.
Regarding Revelations 2&3 speaking of those who overcome, how do we overcome?
1John 5:4,5
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
And this is God's will, that we believe in Jesus, John 6:40.
Also our works are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
And this is how we overcome, as spoken of in Revelations.
Also, take note of Rev 3:15,16
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
This is referring to those who mix grace with works of the law. Such say they're saved by grace but then they add obedience/works of the law with it and determine righteousness/salvation by it. In Rev 3:19 we see God calls for such people to repent.
Grace and works of the law cannot be mixed together.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Our works are to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
To add obedience/works of the law to this is being lukewarm.
I agree with you that the law shows how unholy mankind is. And we agree that it brings us to Christ our Savior.
Gal 3:24,25 says that the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come we are no longer under a tutor.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom 3:28
You seem intent on continuing to determine a Christian's righteousness by obedience/works of the law. But this is contrary to scripture. If we rebuild those things we destroyed (righteousness by works of the law) we make ourselves transgressors/sinners, Gal 2:18. This is unbelief (sin, John 16:9) in Christ's finished work on the cross.
If we continue under the law determining righteousness by it, then we make ourselves transgressors/sinners (Gal 2:18). Remember that to offend in one point of the law makes you guilty of all of it, James 2:10.
If we sin willfully (continue under the law thus making ourselves transgressors/sinners, Gal 2:18) after having the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace), there remains no more sacrifice for sins...Heb 10:26-29.
In Christ we cannot sin, 1John 3:9 (this is not speaking of the physical we see, as it's dead because of sin anyway,Rom 8:10). But our new creation in Christ is holy, righteous, perfected, and cannot sin, in him.
Thiscrosshurts
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How else would I come boldly before the throne of God in a time of need our just to worship?
I could even be so bold as to say I have never sinned because I believe that Jesus accomplished the task that God sent him to finish on the cross.Since I am born from above through faith I am a new creature,old things have passed away and now all things are of God,even trials and enemies are working together for good.
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Jesus said he and the Father would live in us and God does not live in sin.
Let me try another angle:
Acts 7:30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
The old testament said God was in the bush.
The New testament says it was an angel that gave the law.
Jesus set straight a lot of misconceptions about God's nature.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:10 The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
The law is another thief,working hand in hand with sin to bring death, that's why a better covenant was needed.
The law can not make you love but love is fulfillment of the law.
Luke 6:40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
It is difficult to kick against the pricks
1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king
John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
If I won't believe that Jesus accomplished his mission and now lives in me/us then I am stiff-necked and stubborn by demanding Jesus get back on that cross every time I screw up.
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Hekuran
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The psalmist doesn't sound like he is talking about a thief when he sings this song of praise.
May your unfailing love come to me, Lord,
your salvation, according to your promise;
then I can answer anyone who taunts me,
for I trust in your word.
Never take your word of truth from my mouth,
for I have put my hope in your laws.
I will always obey your law,
for ever and ever.
I will walk about in freedom,
for I have sought out your precepts.
I will speak of your statutes before kings
and will not be put to shame,
for I delight in your commands
because I love them.
I reach out for your commands, which I love,
that I may meditate on your decrees.
Psalm 119.
God gave the Law as a good gift, a revelation of himself and the way of his kingdom. Jesus did not overthrow the Law, he fulfilled the Law.
The passages in Paul's writings that seem to be negative about the law are dealing with a specific controversy, not ever saying that the Law was a bad thing.
