I need Salvation

Dobbs_Head · May 2, 2007

I have read many strong claims about what will happen to me if I do not accept Jesus Christ as my savior. It seems that the risks of being a non-believer are great, and I would not like to (edited by LLJ) myself to hell. So I am here asking for your help.

I encountered an argument once, and it stuck with me. I can find no logical fallacy, nothing to break the structure of the argument. I am a scientist and a naturalist, so I cannot accept supernatural claims. The argument goes like this:

Definition 1: existence

A thing exists if it can be demonstrated it has properties of matter or energy.

Definition 2: non-existence

A thing does not exist if it fails definition 1.

Statement: God does not exist.
Proof:
(1) There is no evidence demonstrating God has properties of matter or energy.
(2) God fails definition 1.
(3) God does not exist as per definition 2.
QED

Until this stumbling block can be removed, I cannot be saved.

It may be disproved in two ways:

1) Provide an example of something that exists yet does not have properties of matter or energy. This would invalidate definition 1.

2) Provided evidence for the existence of God. This would invalidate the first statement of the proof.

I am not trying to troll, I simply want an answer and this seemed like a pretty good place with lots of knowledge on the subject.

"To you I am an atheist, to God I am the loyal opposition." -Woody Allen

Chad · May 2, 2007

Faithful Son · May 2, 2007

Welcome brother Dobbs. Glad to see you've joined us.

There are many reasons that you have come here today to ask these questions, the main reason is documented in the Bible, which is the Good Book, inspired by God Himself.

This is the reason:

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

God the Father draws people to Jesus, His one and only Divine Son. God has many sons, I am proud to call myself the brother of Jesus and I am proud to call His Father my Father.

Matthew 12:50
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

Jesus brings us freedom, freedom from everything, even our thoughts and minds that keep us captive.

Jesus is the Ultimate my friend. You do not know Jesus, until you know Him. How should you know Him?

By Faith.

Luke 4:
16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

22All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. "Isn't this Joseph's son?" they asked.

23Jesus said to them, "Surely you will quote this proverb to me: 'Physician, heal yourself! Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.' "

24"I tell you the truth," he continued, "no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah's time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27And there were many in Israel with leprosy in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian."

28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him down the cliff. 30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Just like your perception of this life causes you to make demands from us, so does God demand certain things from you.

Believe me this, when Jesus appears and comes on the clouds for His glorious second coming, all doubt will leave your mind, but you will not have time to react, because then it will be too late. Hell is the effect of the things and "choices" you made in your life, it is not the solution to any problems.

These are spiritual words, and you may not understand them, but God knows you, so ask Him to help you understand.

Just say "God, help me understand these words please". That's all, believe with the smallest, smallest faith that He will help you and you will realize those questions you need proven, God is the proof.

God bless
Much love
teraside

Cody · May 2, 2007

Hey Dobbs, I am glad you have came here looking for answers. I pray that someone could help you better understand God and The Bible. I also would hate for you(or anyone else) to go to hell. Hell will be a place of eternal tourment and even though we all deserve hell, God loved us and sent his son. The best advice I can give you is put your faith in God and let loose of your own understanding. The Bible tells us to do so in Proverbs.

Proverbs 3:5
\"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.\"

You can look all around and see proof of the existence of God. Look at the sky for example. It even talks about that in the Bible.

Psalm 19:1-4
“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”

When looking at all the things around us, thinking about how perfectly God made this universe, with the sun and everything. It is silly to say there was not a creater.

But the fact is, without faith you will never believe in God. The Bible says that we must have faith or it is not possible to please God. You must humble your heart my friend.

Hebrews 11:6
“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.”

I will be praying for you, God Bless.

Chad · May 2, 2007

Some simple truth as to a divine Creator to back up the intelligent design of our earth and universe, including everything within it:

- the sun is 400 times the size of the moon, yet when you look up in the sky they are both nicely proportionate

- the stars is the sky, a beautiful design when you look up in the clear night isn't it?

- only earth has life, of all planets

- if any moon, star, planet, etc in the universe moved a slight bit, it would destroy life on earth

- you can plant a seed in the ground, water it, let it receive sunshine to grow - but ultimately it is GOD that *makes* it grow into a fruit tree, vegetable plant, etc, so you can eat the delicious food. The farmer can do the rest, but GOD does the best.

- miracles, many Christians in their lives witness miracles in their own personal life and/or others at church (or outside church building).

I'm sure you've noticed how oddly it seems that rock bands for example write evil, hateful songs against/about Jesus Christ but you never hear them writing stupid songs about any other 'religion'. Same how people complain against Christians' belief publicly in the media, making invalid arguments and violating OUR rights to believe and practice, yet they don't do the same for any other religion. What about murderous Islam? My point, natural evil flesh that jumps in hate so to speak at the name of Christ. Sad, but true.

Janette · May 3, 2007

Listen.

You know, I am surprised by your request for proof of God's existence, given that you already have it. You just don't have any matter or energy at your disposal.

Most scientists except that there are some things for which a simple search and presentation would be out of the scope of human ability.

Still, I'll make you a deal: You develop the way to search the whole of infinity from corner to corner and end to end, and I'll use your method to go find God for you.

----

If you want proof that God is real, listen to your own heart and mind:

You list your motivation for coming here to seek proof of God as being a fear of Hell.

How exactly do you, as a scientist, reconcile a belief in Hell (or even the potential of a Hell) but not a belief in God? I should think Hell makes very little sense without God.

When exactly did you last visit Hell by the way? Is it made of matter or energy? Given that I can provide you with no proof that Hell is either made up of matter or energy, why are you concerned about it as a possible location for your soul after death?

How do you even worry about having a soul at all?

----

Yet, your fear of Hell apparently moved you to come here seeking answers. You should listen to yourself. After all, you are the one who brought you here. The rest of us didn't come knocking.

While we're on the topic, can you prove to me that your fear is either matter or energy?

There is *no* difference on an EEG for extreme passion or extreme terror -- the waves bounce about the same way from roughly the same areas of the brain. No single biochemical has ever been isolated for fear (except a rise in adrenaline which occurs at other times when one is not fearful). Yet every human in every culture in the world universally understands the difference between fear and passion and normally try to keep the two separate.

But by your rules, the emotion does not strictly exist. Or at best, it exists as an understood conglomeration of events and circumstances.

Given your attitudes towards proving a thing, I don't understand why you'd *want* to seek God. You titled your post "I need to be Saved." But why? By your rules there is nothing you need to be saved from. So why do you need (let alone want) to be Saved? Go home, relax, and fritter into nonexistence when you die.

Or...

Try doing a basic experiment.

Step 1: Ask yourself why, despite all scientific evidence to the contrary (or rather a complete lack of any scientific support), you feel an innate concern for your soul and a desire to seek Salvation in the first place.

I assure you (from experience!) that you will get further along in your spiritual journey if you seek to answer that question first, and the question of understanding God's nature second.

While you are doing that, it might benefit you to read The Science of God by Gerald Schroeder, and The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief by Francis S. Collins.

Step 2:

When you think you've managed to find an answer to step 1, then go somewhere quiet and private and simply ask God to make Himself known to you. The reason I tell you to settle the question in step 1 first, is because if you are not willing to accept that your own instinct defies science, you're not ready to ask God for much of anything, let alone ready to recognize it when you get it.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me...." in the Greek, this statement of Jesus from the book of John is formulaic.

First the sheep listen for and hear His voice, then He comes to know (acknowledges) them, then they follow Him.

He is always calling, but you have to listen. The word listen appears in the NIV Bible some 417 times. Hear (or hears or heard) appears over 1700. By contrast obey appears just 224 times.

You listened to your instincts and felt a fear of Hell that surpasses everything your science can verify. You know it's a real danger and you know you aren't getting any younger or healthier.

Now listen to the advice you've gotten here (not just from me but from the others) and ask yourself the very hard question of "why do I think I need to be saved?" and then come back here when you are ready to answer the question "how do I foster a relationship with this mysterious God I just cannot dismiss even though I've really tried?"

Good hunting,
Janette

Br. Bear · May 5, 2007

Greetings Dobbs,

I think Janette gave you the best advice if you are being honest and sincere about your quest to know God (He is...His existence and proof thereof is that He is)

Follow her advice and ask the Lord to reveal Himself to you...some thing like this..

Jesus, I don't know if you exist, people say you do but so far my science can't prove it, so if you do exist and don't think that you do, then prove it to me ...show me you're real....I'm waiting. Amen.

Now, Dobbs, from your Woody Allen quote, you seem a bit proud to be God's prosecution lawyer, so to speak. Forgive me if I'm mistaken. How does it go...I might be wrong, I was once before! Anyway, may God bless you as you enquire of Him. You will be rewarded according to how much you seek.
Now, if you don't care to go down this road because it is not scientific, can you please explain me? Yes, me.
And I know plenty of others just like me who have had totally unscientific and unexplainable (if you take the existence of God out of the picture) transformations, including cessation of scientifically known addictions - instantaneously and permanently without withdrawal effects, etc. And what about physical healings? Surely there is some fragment at least of scientific evidence in the healing of a body?
As a scientist, you may know all about electricity and so when you next turn on an electric light, you might understand how it all works...or do you..does anyone? Mobile phones baffle me as do millions of bits zipping in and out tens of thousands of miles into space and back in milli-seconds to satellites, uncluttered and unconfused for the sake of things like my computer. BUT, though I don't comprehend it, it happens. My point, I don't think if you spent the rest of your life researching the existence or non-existence (which is a bit of an oxymoron) of God, you could ever uncover all the mysteries of Him....But, you can know Him.

On that point, I'd like to offer you a choice of two things ...

(first, let me point out here that my post here is entirely from me - except if it be in answer to prayer and God alone knows the answer to that- and does not neccessarily have the endorsement of the folks at Talk Jesus)

1st. Choice: That I pray that you will come to the knowledge of God, through Jesus Christ, that you believe that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting , eternal life , and upon believing you believe that Jesus died as a propitiation for your sins, and rose again and forever lives to make intercession for you, AND is coming again to Judge you and the rest of the world ... with this , let me assure you that He's coming whether you believe it or not. The result being that you ask Him in repentance to be your Lord and Saviour. As I said, I can pray for you... this will result in your thourough conversion to the living truth and the eyes of your understanding will be opened.

2nd. Choice: this is like unto the first...except the approach is a bit different. That I pray that God brings you to your knees and you plead out to Him for mercy...and receive it. (For those who might think this a bit over the top, I would never ask anything for another that I wasn't willing for myself. And by the way, He did.) I recommend the first choice but either way is rewarding. When you've been brought to your knees, He picks you up, but sometimes you have to swallow a bitter pill, i.e.the measure taken to bring you to your knees is often painful and may continue to hurt inside for years. According to our stubborness - remember folks, I know from experience. I strongly recommend Choice No. 1 to you Dobbs...trust me.

Now, Dobbs, my friend, please don't forget to explain to me, scientifically, my conversion and that of countless others, complete with explanation in full, of deliverance from substance abuse as well as healings and numerous other miricales. Let's play fair here, Use science if you can, dear friend.

Now, with the choices I gave you (remember that I am giving you these choices and this does not have prior endorsement from TJ and I hope I'm not overstepping the rules here), those choices are yours. and,

Just because I love you , (a miracle in itself ! if you knew the former me), I am going to pray for you anyway, so it's up to you to choose. Expect to hear from the Lord.

Bless you, in the name of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost.

Br. Bear.

spirit1st · May 29, 2007

GOD has revealed HIMSELF to every person on earth!
The bible tells me so!
I must believe it ,over any person on earth!
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Many say they do not believe,but they All know in there heart [spirit]

Plus i know?
Every person on earth hears GOD and satan.
We all gets thoughts that are not our thoughts.
Then we might say?
Gee,which should i do?this or that.When in fact neither thought was yours!
So we decide which thoughts to live
God said?He gave every person a measure of FAITH!
So we could believe!
now of course after m,any years of refusing top hear HIm or obey HIM!
We may well get to the point,we will not accept those thoughts HE gives!Then of course,We must accept satans thoughts or our own understanding,which by then is flawed.So then we are dealing with?Which flawed understanding will we live?

Every person on this earth wants love.We all desire it?Why?
Because we would made by LOVE to LOVE and give LOVE!We are very unhappy without these two things in our lifes!
He is the true love we have seached for.many grow old and have put that desire aside,as if they will never have it?
still it is alive in them.
And only a few words away.
They can still find that LOVE.He is long suffering and waits for you and all others ,who feel there is no hope!
HE loves us VERY MUCH!

rlowe · Jun 2, 2007

Dobbs_Head said:
I have read many strong claims about what will happen to me if I do not accept Jesus Christ as my savior. It seems that the risks of being a non-believer are great, and I would not like to (edited by LLJ) myself to hell. So I am here asking for your help.

I encountered an argument once, and it stuck with me. I can find no logical fallacy, nothing to break the structure of the argument. I am a scientist and a naturalist, so I cannot accept supernatural claims. The argument goes like this:

Definition 1: existence

A thing exists if it can be demonstrated it has properties of matter or energy.

Definition 2: non-existence

A thing does not exist if it fails definition 1.

Statement: God does not exist.
Proof:
(1) There is no evidence demonstrating God has properties of matter or energy.
(2) God fails definition 1.
(3) God does not exist as per definition 2.
QED

Until this stumbling block can be removed, I cannot be saved.

It may be disproved in two ways:

1) Provide an example of something that exists yet does not have properties of matter or energy. This would invalidate definition 1.

2) Provided evidence for the existence of God. This would invalidate the first statement of the proof.

I am not trying to troll, I simply want an answer and this seemed like a pretty good place with lots of knowledge on the subject.

"To you I am an atheist, to God I am the loyal opposition." -Woody Allen

Reply:

"Definition 1: existence ... A thing exists if it can be demonstrated it has properties of matter or energy."

What about pure air, without which we wouldn't survive?

Also, if all science was fact bees would not fly. :shock:

Feel free to expand on your questions &/or ask more
by: posting here or sending my a Private Message.

spirit1st · Jun 2, 2007

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

SpiritLedEd · Jun 3, 2007

Dobbs: Janette has referred you to a couple of very good books for your investigation. I offer one more title for you to read: "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell.

SpiritLedEd

ltpage · Oct 13, 2007

Dobbs,your in bad shape then!

SpiritLedEd · Oct 14, 2007

ltPage: DobbsHead seems to have abandoned this thread after my post of June 3rd. Hopefully he purchased one or more of the suggested books and has opened his heart to the message of the gospel.

SLE

trulyblezzed · Oct 16, 2007

Dobbs_Head said:
A thing exists if it can be demonstrated it has properties of matter or energy.

Until this stumbling block can be removed, I cannot be saved

Hello Dobbs,

1. If something doesn't have matter, it does not exist. Well does air (oxygen) have matter? If not, then it must not exist according to you.

2. If something doesn't have energy, it does not exist? My friend have you ever gotten close to God? I mean seriously close to him? No? I didn't think so. If you would've ever experienced being in God's Holy Spirit, you would feel the energy... unlike any energy I've ever felt before.
~Hypothetically, Say you saw a polar bear from 300 yards away through binoculars. You don't have the instruments yet to measure energy. You can't feel it's heat because you're not close enough. Up until now, you've never seen such a thing so you don't know what it is. Does this mean the polar bear doesn't exist because you're not close enough?

Just some food for thought.

Welcome!

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