I Corinthians 5 and 6...

[Shaolin]

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So, here's the point of this OP: a person who calls himself a saved brother in Christ, but engages in sexual immorality, greed, idolatry, reviler, drunk, or a swindler (basically a thief) is not to be associated with, don't hang around them, don't have anything to do with them, don't even eat with them (because in this cultural background, eating with a person signifies social standing - you only ate with people that you had some form of relationship with). Paul is basically saying not to have any kind of relationship with such a person. In 6:9-10 he includes these same types of people as saying that they are unrighteous despite their claim to being a "brother," and they will not go to heaven.

But what about the person who says he is a saved brother who supports the murdering and shedding of innocent blood in abortions? What about the person who calls himself a Christian but supports homosexuality? According to Scripture, these two things are the worst of the worst...worse than an adulterer, reviler, idolater, drunk, and swindler.

I know people today caught up in false doctrine and apostate churches who call themselves Christians, but who support abortion (the murdering of the innocent) and homosexuality in various ways...and according to what Paul says here by the Holy Spirit, such people are unrighteous, not on their way to heaven, and are not to be associated with. This came to mind because in our monthly men's breakfast group we have a guy who regularly shows up that is part of the church, who supports Leftist, liberal ideologies (abortion and homosexuality), and I can no longer eat the men's breakfast because of him. I go, but I do not participate.

To me, it is the same as participating in sexual immorality when you are told not to do such things. Since it is in the same chapters, it is the same as the guy who was having sexual relations with his step mother that Paul is talking about, the step-mother representing what is sinful.

What do you say?

Blessings!

..

 

[B-A-C]

People to avoid

Hmmm... aren't we supposed to go out unto all the world and preach the gospel? Yes we are. But there are some people who reject it over and over again. There are even some who call themselves Christians who reject it. We are told to avoid some of these people. 2 Tim 3:2; For men will be...

www.talkjesus.com

There was asimilar thread a while back.

 

[B-A-C]

2Jn 1:9; Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10; If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
2Jn 1:11; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

Matt 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Matt 18:16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Matt 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

2Tim 3:2; For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Tim 3:3; unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2Tim 3:4; treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Tim 3:5; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

 

[Waggles]

What do you say?

Isaiah 52:11 Depart, depart, go out from there; touch no unclean thing; go out from the midst of her; purify yourselves, you who bear the vessels of the LORD.

Psalm 101:3 I will not set before my eyes anything that is worthless. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cling to me.
101:4 A perverse heart shall be far from me; I will know nothing of evil.

2Cor 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
6:17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;
18:5 for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

 

[B-A-C]

2Cor 11:3; But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
2Cor 11:4; For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you accept this without question.
2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

Gal 1:6; I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal 1:7; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8; But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal 1:9; As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

One of my main complaints about TalkJesus over the years, is that the moderators let any demonic doctrine be welcomed here, and continue to be debated for weeks or months.
Then they close the thread eventually. They should have closed the thread immediately soon as these doctrines start to propigate. They will be held accountable.

 

[GodB4Us]

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So, here's the point of this OP: a person who calls himself a saved brother in Christ, but engages in sexual immorality, greed, idolatry, reviler, drunk, or a swindler (basically a thief) is not to be associated with, don't hang around them, don't have anything to do with them, don't even eat with them (because in this cultural background, eating with a person signifies social standing - you only ate with people that you had some form of relationship with). Paul is basically saying not to have any kind of relationship with such a person. In 6:9-10 he includes these same types of people as saying that they are unrighteous despite their claim to being a "brother," and they will not go to heaven.

But what about the person who says he is a saved brother who supports the murdering and shedding of innocent blood in abortions? What about the person who calls himself a Christian but supports homosexuality? According to Scripture, these two things are the worst of the worst...worse than an adulterer, reviler, idolater, drunk, and swindler.

I know people today caught up in false doctrine and apostate churches who call themselves Christians, but who support abortion (the murdering of the innocent) and homosexuality in various ways...and according to what Paul says here by the Holy Spirit, such people are unrighteous, not on their way to heaven, and are not to be associated with. This came to mind because in our monthly men's breakfast group we have a guy who regularly shows up that is part of the church, who supports Leftist, liberal ideologies (abortion and homosexuality), and I can no longer eat the men's breakfast because of him. I go, but I do not participate.

To me, it is the same as participating in sexual immorality when you are told not to do such things. Since it is in the same chapters, it is the same as the guy who was having sexual relations with his step mother that Paul is talking about, the step-mother representing what is sinful.

What do you say?

Blessings!

..

Why isn't your breakfast group reproving him in Christ's love and if refusing to repent, excommunicate him from the breakfast group until he does repent?

BTW, any brother that has gone astray is still a brother. @B-A-C

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;................... 14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

This was addressing those saved believers in the prior chapter that have fallen away from the faith in believing the lie that they can receive the holy Spirit again after a sign.

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. ( think of new age methodology seeking to receive spirits by a sign, believing it to be the holy Spirit but it is not )

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So how can Paul still call them brother and not the enemy if they are going to be damned? If a believer does not depart from iniquity, they run the risk of being left behind and that is how they become vessels unto dishonor in His House which is in all respect, a damnation of itself because they can never be that vessel unto honor then. which is why we are to call them to depart from iniquity to avoid that loss of being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Below is the reproof in exposing that lie for how saved believers have gone astray in experiencing those grand delusions for believing the lie that they can receive the holy Ghost again by a sign..

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Saved believers that are in "slain in the spirit", holy laughter movement, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, Ernest Angely's Healing Crusade, and even the other calling of another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or by that sign of tongues, need to depart from this lie and shun that tongue by praying normally if they wish to be found ready for the Bridegroom as found abiding in Him and not in iniquity, which are works that deny Him.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

I hope the Lord is recovering some from that snare of the devil so they too may obtain that eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus to be received by Him as the vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven. Otherwise, they get left behind to die since we are not to eat with them, but their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[B-A-C]

Why isn't your breakfast group reproving him in Christ's love and if refusing to repent, excommunicate him from the breakfast group until he does repent?

First it isn't "my group". But it is a good question. The moderators typcically don't care about doctrine, so in their view... whats to repent of? Usually just bickering and arguing.
So in the end it gives credence to the false doctrines. They don't care if you're right or wrong, they just care if you fight about it.

BTW, any brother that has gone astray is still a brother.

It depends on far astray for how long. The Bible says we can go "too far". It says it is possible to "fall short of grace". It says we have to repent.
There have been a number of threds on here about the difference between "stumbling", and willful deliberate sin... Living a sinful lifestyle.

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Yes, it also says He will never leave or forsake us. (The verse is actually about God taking care of our material needs, the love of money, not salvation)
Heb 13:5 says.. "He has said"... well where did He say this? Not in the New Testament, but in the Old Testament.
Nehemiah 9 says even though He didn't forsake the Jews, they forsook Him.
Heb 3:7; to 4:11; says that even though He never forsook them, most failed to enter because of disobedience.
God never left them for 40 years, he fed them, made sure their clothes didn't wear out, gave them covering by day, light and warmth by night...
but in the end, they still don't make it into the promised land.

 

[GodB4Us]

First it isn't "my group". But it is a good question.

well, that statement was to @Shaolin but the following comment about how those that have gone astray is still a brother was for both of you.

The moderators typcically don't care about doctrine, so in their view... whats to repent of? Usually just bickering and arguing.
So in the end it gives credence to the false doctrines. They don't care if you're right or wrong, they just care if you fight about it.

Unless you have a quote from them, God only knows.

It depends on far astray for how long. The Bible says we can go "too far". It says it is possible to "fall short of grace". It says we have to repent.
There have been a number of threds on here about the difference between "stumbling", and willful deliberate sin... Living a sinful lifestyle.

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

God still calls him His people even though He is going to have vengeance on them.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Yes, it also says He will never leave or forsake us. (The verse is actually about God taking care of our material needs, the love of money, not salvation)
Heb 13:5 says.. "He has said"... well where did He say this? Not in the New Testament, but in the Old Testament.
Nehemiah 9 says even though He didn't forsake the Jews, they forsook Him.
Heb 3:7; to 4:11; says that even though He never forsook them, most failed to enter because of disobedience.
God never left them for 40 years, he fed them, made sure their clothes didn't wear out, gave them covering by day, light and warmth by night...
but in the end, they still don't make it into the promised land.

When confronted with seemingly opposing truths like Jesus saying He will not cast out any one that the Father has given Him; but yet there is casting out of those not found abiding in Him in being ready for the Bridegroom;

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

One can see that He still calls them His servants for why they are getting stripes per the knowledge for not being ready. I thank the Lord for leading me to the parable of the ten virgins because that answers how they are cast out from the Marriage Supper as "excommunicated" but not out of His kingdom. The very first verse testifies that in spite of the five that were foolish that missed out on the wedding reception in Matthew 25:1-13, they were still the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 25:1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

So there is a casting out as excommunicated from the Marriage Supper for not being found abiding in Him but there is no casting out of the kingdom of heaven, albeit left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

That is why and how there are least in the kingdom of heaven when breaking even the least of His commandments and teaching others so for they have been bought with a price and sealed as His.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is why believers are called to depart from iniquity to avoid grieving the Holy Spirit in us Whom is not going any where.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Shaolin]

Why isn't your breakfast group reproving him in Christ's love and if refusing to repent, excommunicate him from the breakfast group until he does repent?

Because, unfortunately, the church that I currently attend is not pastored by a man called by God into the ministry. I moved to my current location 10 years ago and have been to practically every church in this city (aside from the ones that a Christian person doesn't need to consider, like the Kingdom Hall, Mormon church, Catholic, and wayward pentecostal churches like Oneness and so forth), attended those churches long enough to be able to tell whether or not the pastor was called by God into that position or not, and then left to try another one when it was obvious that he was not called by God.

Sadly, I have not found even ONE church in my area that has a pastor called by God into that ministry position. A person filling a pulpit that has not been called by God, does NOT have the equipping, giftings, or anointing to be able to fulfill that position as Scripture gives us to. Unfortunately for me, I have to attend a church that at least has some things right, even though the pastor is not called by God to that position...I have to attend church somewhere.

BTW, any brother that has gone astray is still a brother. @B-A-C

I do not want to side track this thread, so all I will say is that this claim is not Biblical, which can be demonstrated with Scripture.

..

 

[Shaolin]

well, that statement was to @Shaolin but the following comment about how those that have gone astray is still a brother was for both of you.

Unless you have a quote from them, God only knows.

God still calls him His people even though He is going to have vengeance on them.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

When confronted with seemingly opposing truths like Jesus saying He will not cast out any one that the Father has given Him; but yet there is casting out of those not found abiding in Him in being ready for the Bridegroom;

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

One can see that He still calls them His servants for why they are getting stripes per the knowledge for not being ready. I thank the Lord for leading me to the parable of the ten virgins because that answers how they are cast out from the Marriage Supper as "excommunicated" but not out of His kingdom. The very first verse testifies that in spite of the five that were foolish that missed out on the wedding reception in Matthew 25:1-13, they were still the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 25:1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

So there is a casting out as excommunicated from the Marriage Supper for not being found abiding in Him but there is no casting out of the kingdom of heaven, albeit left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

That is why and how there are least in the kingdom of heaven when breaking even the least of His commandments and teaching others so for they have been bought with a price and sealed as His.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is why believers are called to depart from iniquity to avoid grieving the Holy Spirit in us Whom is not going any where.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

If you want to talk about the false doctrine of eternal security, please start your own thread...the OP here has nothing to do with once saved, always saved nonsense.

Thank you

..

 

[Waggles]

Sadly, I have not found even ONE church in my area that has a pastor called by God into that ministry position.

I know not where you dwell but thankfully the internet comes in handy to negate distance ...
The Revival Fellowship - a no frills, no hoo-haa, non charismatic, Bible obedient Pentecostal Spirit-filled church

Home, The Revival Fellowship, USA

 

[Shaolin]

I know not where you dwell but thankfully the internet comes in handy to negate distance ...
The Revival Fellowship - a no frills, no hoo-haa, non charismatic, Bible obedient Pentecostal Spirit-filled church

Home, The Revival Fellowship, USA

A pentecostal spirit-filled church that is not charismatic? How are you defining "charismatic" and "pentecostal?"

..

 

[Waggles]

A pentecostal spirit-filled church that is not charismatic? How are you defining "charismatic" and "pentecostal?"

..

Charismatics are disorderly and often bring in unscriptural practices - they often give a bad reputation to Pentecostal faith and are used to criticize Pentecostalism as excessive and bizarre.
My opinion given what I have seen and heard of about rather strange doctrines and behaviours in other "pentecostal" churches.
Pentecostal tend to be more Bible obedient and disciplined - all are baptized in water and all are baptized in the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.
Pentecostal churches do not go for excesses of manifestations of the Holy Spirit as the charismatics have unfortunately fallen for.
There are two witnesses to the full gospel of salvation that work together in the body of Christ - the word of God and the Holy Spirit.
To submit to the the commandments and teachings of scripture works in with being lead by the Spirit.

Years ago I was witnessing to a woman and when I handed her a brochure containing some testimonies and scriptures, she looked at this and said 'Oh, I know who you are! You're that church that is in bondage to
the word of God. I felt a sword come between me and your church when I attended your assembly in Perth."
That to me best explains the difference between charismatic and Pentecostal.

 

[GodB4Us]

Because, unfortunately, the church that I currently attend is not pastored by a man called by God into the ministry. I moved to my current location 10 years ago and have been to practically every church in this city (aside from the ones that a Christian person doesn't need to consider, like the Kingdom Hall, Mormon church, Catholic, and wayward pentecostal churches like Oneness and so forth), attended those churches long enough to be able to tell whether or not the pastor was called by God into that position or not, and then left to try another one when it was obvious that he was not called by God.

Sadly, I have not found even ONE church in my area that has a pastor called by God into that ministry position. A person filling a pulpit that has not been called by God, does NOT have the equipping, giftings, or anointing to be able to fulfill that position as Scripture gives us to. Unfortunately for me, I have to attend a church that at least has some things right, even though the pastor is not called by God to that position...I have to attend church somewhere.



I do not want to side track this thread, so all I will say is that this claim is not Biblical, which can be demonstrated with Scripture.

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And @B-A-C

If you want to talk about the false doctrine of eternal security, please start your own thread...the OP here has nothing to do with once saved, always saved nonsense.

Thank you

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Here is the thread at the link below just in case the tagging system for you & B-A-C in that Op of that thread does not work.

Believers That Have Gone Astray Are Still Saved

 

[GodB4Us]

Charismatics are disorderly and often bring in unscriptural practices - they often give a bad reputation to Pentecostal faith and are used to criticize Pentecostalism as excessive and bizarre.
My opinion given what I have seen and heard of about rather strange doctrines and behaviours in other "pentecostal" churches.
Pentecostal tend to be more Bible obedient and disciplined - all are baptized in water and all are baptized in the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.
Pentecostal churches do not go for excesses of manifestations of the Holy Spirit as the charismatics have unfortunately fallen for.
There are two witnesses to the full gospel of salvation that work together in the body of Christ - the word of God and the Holy Spirit.
To submit to the the commandments and teachings of scripture works in with being lead by the Spirit.

Years ago I was witnessing to a woman and when I handed her a brochure containing some testimonies and scriptures, she looked at this and said 'Oh, I know who you are! You're that church that is in bondage to
the word of God. I felt a sword come between me and your church when I attended your assembly in Perth."
That to me best explains the difference between charismatic and Pentecostal.

@Shaolin Tagged because the quoted reply above was to you for Waggles discussion with you.

Do you consider the Toronto's Blessings as Pentecostals or Charismatic and why or why not?

Toronto Blessing

Quoted from link: "The peak of the Toronto blessing's prominence in the Christian community occurred in the mid to late 1990s. Since that time it has faded from public view, although the proponents of Discernment Ministries would suggest that these kinds of events are simply part of a wider theological cycle that has existed continually throughout modern era Pentecostalism / Charismatism. [4] " End of quote

I can believe you that some Pentecostals do not experience nor practice that which you seem to describe in Charismatics as if inferring the Toronto's Blessings, but if I recall the year correctly, in 1997, the apostasy of the holy laughter movement was nationwide in breaking across the denominations of even Catholic and Protestant churches as no longer just a stream lined Pentecostal/Charismatic event as reported by the 700 Club.

Course this was not happening in ALL Catholic & Protestant churches, but it has spread across the denominations. You seem to testify that the holy laughter movement has not occurred in your Pentecostal church, however, since you believe one can receive the baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues apart from salvation, I point out to you that this is the same route that holy laughter movement strive on, by believing that lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit "again" apart from salvation. Same route means same evil tree for why no good tree can come from an evil tree and no evil tree can produce a good fruit. If you judge holy laughter as not of God, then so is that tongue for private use as gained by a phenomenon separate from salvation, and some do "fall" backwards in seeking that sign of tongues too, because they sought it not by Jesus Christ, but by another apostate calling as if one can recieve Him again.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

By providing another way or another apostate calling for saved believers to seek after, they have gone astray as workers of iniquity.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

It will be ecumenical in nature and that is why it will spread across the denominations that do not keep the focus on honoring only the Son in worship in coming to God the Father ( John 14:6 ) by in honoring the Father by John 5:22-23

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

This is the route as in the tree by which if the same route and tree produce an evil fruit, then all other fruits are evil too.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So regardless of the many miracles that is happening in those movements, Jesus will denounce them as workers of iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Jesus explained that this apostasy is why many believers lose self control & fall backwards in for why they are "disorderly" as you touched on in your reply albeit did not give an example. At this link to that thread, you may understand why those who seek to be filled again apart from salvation are seen as being out to the market for why they were not ready for the Bridegroom and get left behind, but still being part of the kingdom of heaven and why.

Believers That Have Gone Astray Are Still Saved

While the door to the Marriage Supper is still open, may those who have been saved by Jesus Christ, even former believers, seek answers & discernment from Him to repent of the lies that have led them astray to be ready to go.

 

[GodB4Us]

If you want to talk about the false doctrine of eternal security, please start your own thread...the OP here has nothing to do with once saved, always saved nonsense.

Thank you

..

BTW, In relations to your 1 Corinthians 5 & 6 chapters, Paul is touching on eternal security here for how those who get excommunicated from the Marriage Supper shall still be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

After all, Paul did testify to the reality we have in Christ here for why believers should abstain and/or repent from fornication, having been bought & paid for.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

To tie that all in to eternal security again, we can go back to 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 in how those who defile the temple of God with any works of iniquity on that foundation, their bodies shall be destroyed, BUT their spirits are saved; verse 15.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The consequence of physical death when left behind in that day when God judges His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event ( verse 13 ) ties in to the warning to the church at Thyatira for being judged with death for their works of iniquity Revelation 2:18-25, as Satan will wage war on the saints to kill them with the sword & hunger literally, left behind saints are given over unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh as 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 testify.

So 1 Corinthians 5 & 6 does touch on eternal security and the consequence for not abiding in Him from which losing eternal security is not one of those consequences, but being excommunicated from the Marriage Supper is.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

As the church is supposed to do in maintaining proper fellowship when eating together the Lord's Supper even, so will God do for the Marriage Supper above. Do note how Paul still calls those astray as brothers rather than unbelievers or unsaved? That is because they know the gospel and are saved, They just need to repent or else risk not only excommunication from the fellowship, but excommunication by God from the Marriage Supper.

 

[Hekuran]

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So, here's the point of this OP: a person who calls himself a saved brother in Christ, but engages in sexual immorality, greed, idolatry, reviler, drunk, or a swindler (basically a thief) is not to be associated with, don't hang around them, don't have anything to do with them, don't even eat with them (because in this cultural background, eating with a person signifies social standing - you only ate with people that you had some form of relationship with). Paul is basically saying not to have any kind of relationship with such a person. In 6:9-10 he includes these same types of people as saying that they are unrighteous despite their claim to being a "brother," and they will not go to heaven.

But what about the person who says he is a saved brother who supports the murdering and shedding of innocent blood in abortions? What about the person who calls himself a Christian but supports homosexuality? According to Scripture, these two things are the worst of the worst...worse than an adulterer, reviler, idolater, drunk, and swindler.

I know people today caught up in false doctrine and apostate churches who call themselves Christians, but who support abortion (the murdering of the innocent) and homosexuality in various ways...and according to what Paul says here by the Holy Spirit, such people are unrighteous, not on their way to heaven, and are not to be associated with. This came to mind because in our monthly men's breakfast group we have a guy who regularly shows up that is part of the church, who supports Leftist, liberal ideologies (abortion and homosexuality), and I can no longer eat the men's breakfast because of him. I go, but I do not participate.

To me, it is the same as participating in sexual immorality when you are told not to do such things. Since it is in the same chapters, it is the same as the guy who was having sexual relations with his step mother that Paul is talking about, the step-mother representing what is sinful.

What do you say?

Blessings!

..

I don't have a full answer, but a couple of thoughts.

First, Paul is writing to the whole church in Corinth, not to individuals. Is someone has gone astray, it is for the church to discern collectively how to deal with the situation.

Second, Paul addresses what people do, not what they believe. For example, many people are gay-affirming, but not engaging in homosexual sex. That's probably a distinction to bear in mind.

I think you may have overstated the Bible's opposition to homosexuality and abortion. They are both lines in the sand in western culture wars, but the Bible has far more to say about other issues such as oppression of people in poverty.

Last, there's the question of discernment- how might God be at work in a person's life. Are they moving closer to Jesus or persistent in rejecting his teaching? For example, my church strongly upholds traditional marriage values. A person is now beginning to attend who is living unmarried with their partner. What to do? Insist they break it off or get married right away? Bar them from services until they do? My pastor's approach is not to rush the Holy Spirit's conviction. The right time will come as they are learning the cost of following Jesus, and how to address the issue. Until then, it's welcoming them and always pointing to Jesus.

God-given wisdom and discernment, not applying a hard and fast rule.

 

[GodB4Us]

I don't have a full answer, but a couple of thoughts.

First, Paul is writing to the whole church in Corinth, not to individuals. Is someone has gone astray, it is for the church to discern collectively how to deal with the situation.

Paul was addressing the whole church regarding that brother that had his father's wife so he was addressing both.

Second, Paul addresses what people do, not what they believe. For example, many people are gay-affirming, but not engaging in homosexual sex. That's probably a distinction to bear in mind.

Although I agree when it comes to judging a sin thus correcting what people do and not condemn them as if they are not really brothers, we are also to cast down wicked thoughts also in order to abide in Him.

Some are alcoholic by genetics but that does not mean they are to be known as alcoholic affirming, right? Former alcoholics is and thus former homosexuals is best to be known as, testifying to Jesus having delivered them from their sins and thus keeping them from their sins daily in thought, word, and deed.

Would we be silent if someone was known as a "bigot affirming"? What is on the inside counts and not just what we see on the outside of others because God judges the heart & thoughts within. So if a person is constantly plagued with thoughts of revenge or vengeance, then they are to go before that throne of grace for help in their times of need to cast down those thoughts and for help to think on good things, trusting Jesus Christ to do this.

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.... 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

I think you may have overstated the Bible's opposition to homosexuality and abortion. They are both lines in the sand in western culture wars, but the Bible has far more to say about other issues such as oppression of people in poverty.

Last, there's the question of discernment- how might God be at work in a person's life. Are they moving closer to Jesus or persistent in rejecting his teaching? For example, my church strongly upholds traditional marriage values. A person is now beginning to attend who is living unmarried with their partner. What to do? Insist they break it off or get married right away? Bar them from services until they do? My pastor's approach is not to rush the Holy Spirit's conviction. The right time will come as they are learning the cost of following Jesus, and how to address the issue. Until then, it's welcoming them and always pointing to Jesus.

God-given wisdom and discernment, not applying a hard and fast rule.

There can be no overstating sin in regards to anything as each need to be forgiven for and asking Jesus for help not to do it again, in thought, word, and deed.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Psalm 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. 13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. 14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.

 

[Hekuran]

Paul was addressing the whole church regarding that brother that had his father's wife so he was addressing both.

Although I agree when it comes to judging a sin thus correcting what people do and not condemn them as if they are not really brothers, we are also to cast down wicked thoughts also in order to abide in Him.

Some are alcoholic by genetics but that does not mean they are to be known as alcoholic affirming, right? Former alcoholics is and thus former homosexuals is best to be known as, testifying to Jesus having delivered them from their sins and thus keeping them from their sins daily in thought, word, and deed.

Would we be silent if someone was known as a "bigot affirming"? What is on the inside counts and not just what we see on the outside of others because God judges the heart & thoughts within. So if a person is constantly plagued with thoughts of revenge or vengeance, then they are to go before that throne of grace for help in their times of need to cast down those thoughts and for help to think on good things, trusting Jesus Christ to do this.

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.... 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

There can be no overstating sin in regards to anything as each need to be forgiven for and asking Jesus for help not to do it again, in thought, word, and deed.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Psalm 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. 13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. 14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.

Cool. I was replying to shaolin though. I'm sure he'll be able to pick out was is and what is not useful in my first post.

 

[Shaolin]

Charismatics are disorderly and often bring in unscriptural practices - they often give a bad reputation to Pentecostal faith and are used to criticize Pentecostalism as excessive and bizarre.
My opinion given what I have seen and heard of about rather strange doctrines and behaviours in other "pentecostal" churches.
Pentecostal tend to be more Bible obedient and disciplined - all are baptized in water and all are baptized in the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.
Pentecostal churches do not go for excesses of manifestations of the Holy Spirit as the charismatics have unfortunately fallen for.
There are two witnesses to the full gospel of salvation that work together in the body of Christ - the word of God and the Holy Spirit.
To submit to the the commandments and teachings of scripture works in with being lead by the Spirit.

Years ago I was witnessing to a woman and when I handed her a brochure containing some testimonies and scriptures, she looked at this and said 'Oh, I know who you are! You're that church that is in bondage to
the word of God. I felt a sword come between me and your church when I attended your assembly in Perth."
That to me best explains the difference between charismatic and Pentecostal.

Interesting...but you do know, of course, that pentecostalism is a part of the charismatic movement - both believe in and practice the spiritual gifts.

..