I am the believer of Christ. Don't judge me.

[amadeus2]

What is free will(angels only follow order and they are created to do so. There is no free will until God created Adam to choose a fruit not to eat or to eat but angels did not have one such kind. So how come they dis obey when there is no such thing existed . If there is a coin with head and tail to choose then there would be a chance of getting either one. But, here they(angels) do not have options. I think you got my point this time. Think deep. I am talking about the scenario which existed before the existence of this universe. So be thinful with knowledge that come from above . I am not rejecting your answer. I am in search of answer for my question that has to be unquestionable after it is answered. Sorry, but help me to find one. Thank you.

Lots of words spoken here with scriptures and so forth, but consider also my words on this, if you will...

On free will: Men were given free will in the beginning, to choose to obey God, or not, as in whether to eat of the forbidden fruit or not. This free will is described elsewhere in scripture. Here are two:

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Lu 16:13No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Yes we are ultimately given only two choices, God's Way or our own way. Adam and Eve chose the wrong way and effectively killed all of us in the eyes of God. Men consider themselves alive, but God does not as Jesus clarified here:

Mt 8:22But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

God sent His Son to provide anew Life:

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more abundantly

On angels: An angel is simply a messenger. When used in the scriptures it is usually (if not always) a messenger from God. I have seen two types of angels in the scripture. There is the heavenly angel like the angel Gabriel sent to Mary to announce to her that she was to be the mother of Jesus. The other type of angel is a man like you or me called by God and sent to men to speak a message, God's message to other men. John the Baptist is an example of this:

Mt 11:10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Matt 11:10

Messenger:

ayygeloß Aggelos (ang'-el-os);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 32

1. a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

KJV Word Usage and Count:

angel: 179

messenger: 7

When the scripture speaks of fallen angels, some times (many times or all times?) is it not speaking about men who have been called by God but after receiving the call have slipped badly and fallen away from God?

 

[Brad Huber]

Lots of words spoken here with scriptures and so forth, but consider also my words on this, if you will...

On free will: Men were given free will in the beginning, to choose to obey God, or not, as in whether to eat of the forbidden fruit or not. This free will is described elsewhere in scripture. Here are two:

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Lu 16:13No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Yes we are ultimately given only two choices, God's Way or our own way. Adam and Eve chose the wrong way and effectively killed all of us in the eyes of God. Men consider themselves alive, but God does not as Jesus clarified here:

Mt 8:22But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

God sent His Son to provide anew Life:

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more abundantly

On angels: An angel is simply a messenger. When used in the scriptures it is usually (if not always) a messenger from God. I have seen two types of angels in the scripture. There is the heavenly angel like the angel Gabriel sent to Mary to announce to her that she was to be the mother of Jesus. The other type of angel is a man like you or me called by God and sent to men to speak a message, God's message to other men. John the Baptist is an example of this:

Mt 11:10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Matt 11:10

Messenger:

ayygeloß Aggelos (ang'-el-os);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 32

1. a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

KJV Word Usage and Count:

angel: 179

messenger: 7

When the scripture speaks of fallen angels, some times (many times or all times?) is it not speaking about men who have been called by God but after receiving the call have slipped badly and fallen away from God?

So with the war in heaven and a third of the angels being kicked out of heaven and cast to earth, do you think those were humans also?

 

[amadeus2]

So with the war in heaven and a third of the angels being kicked out of heaven and cast to earth, do you think those were humans also?

I don't, nor do I pretend, to understand all that God is saying to us through what is written in scripture, but I have yet to hear anyone really explain clearly why the idea expressed in your sentence is accurate. They have read or heard things from other men, but what does God say? I am not saying that I know what He says but I don't believe He said that. I have heard people mention it, of course, on forums like this one, but I don't believe I have ever heard a anyone teach it clearly using the scriptures in support of each and every point. A lot of people apparently say that they believe it. Does it come from this verse perhaps?

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Rev 12:4

From what heaven are they cast down and who are the stars? Jesus was, I believe, in the three heavens I as read it from this verse:

Joh 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The stars are bright little lights, little lights showing forth a bit of the Light which Jesus is, is he not?

Mt 5:14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Mt 5:15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

When a minister, [a messenger or angel sent by God to teach/preach] as for example, Jimmie Swaggert, falls from his place with God into sin, is he not really falling from one of those three heavens into a pit of sin? His light diminished or went out when he fell? If he has really repented, then apparently the pit was not a final place of death, was it?

 

[Hekuran]

A little word of caution here. The Bible does not give an answer to every intriguing question we have.

What is the ultimate source of evil, and how did it first arise? The Bible is pretty much silent on this question. It's first appearance is in the form of a serpent in the Garden of Eden, and its final end is in the lake of burning sulphur (Revelation 20).

Again with free will, we can see that the Bible assumes it -- our choices and actions are morally significant and we are accountable to God for them -- but there's precious little mention of the concept in the pages of the Bible.

It's philosophically intriguing/frustrating, but we have to accept that the Bible tells us what God wants to reveal, not all that we might want to know.

 

[Brad Huber]

I don't, nor do I pretend, to understand all that God is saying to us through what is written in scripture, but I have yet to hear anyone really explain clearly why the idea expressed in your sentence is accurate. They have read or heard things from other men, but what does God say? I am not saying that I know what He says but I don't believe He said that. I have heard people mention it, of course, on forums like this one, but I don't believe I have ever heard a anyone teach it clearly using the scriptures in support of each and every point. A lot of people apparently say that they believe it. Does it come from this verse perhaps?

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Rev 12:4

From what heaven are they cast down and who are the stars? Jesus was, I believe, in the three heavens I as read it from this verse:

Joh 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The stars are bright little lights, little lights showing forth a bit of the Light which Jesus is, is he not?

Mt 5:14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Mt 5:15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

When a minister, [a messenger or angel sent by God to teach/preach] as for example, Jimmie Swaggert, falls from his place with God into sin, is he not really falling from one of those three heavens into a pit of sin? His light diminished or went out when he fell? If he has really repented, then apparently the pit was not a final place of death, was it?

Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
8 and they did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him

I remember it being a 3rd of the heavenly host that sided with satan, I can look it up if you wish, but the point is valid with the scripture I think.

 

[amadeus2]

Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
8 and they did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him

I remember it being a 3rd of the heavenly host that sided with satan, I can look it up if you wish, but the point is valid with the scripture I think.

The difficulty is that most any belief that people hold can be supported by scripture. It was written by men inspired by God. However, I believe, that it can only be properly understood [interpreted, seen] by a person who is also inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is why it is so important to read, study, pray without ceasing and rejoice in the Lord always so as to always be walking the Spirit and led by the Spirit and directed by the Spirit and inspired by that same Holy Spirit. Peopl do get weary in well doing and the result is not a good one.

On the point, where then is heaven and what is it? I see three heavens at least. Jesus had clearly been in all three. No one rebelled in 3rd heaven the very seat of God. No one enters there with any seeds of doubt or with any rebellious spirits of their own. 1st and 2nd heaven are different. It is hard to see rebellion even in 2nd heaven, but 1st heaven is where every unclean beast gets his start and while he remain unclean he can and too often does rebel. How is one elevated from there to 2nd heaven instead of being cast down to hell?