I am right and you are wrong

[Sue J Love]

"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you." 1 Co. 5:1-2

"Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." 1 Co. 5:6-8

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Where does the scripture teach what you are saying? The Bible speaks loud and clear on this issue. We are not to judge condemningly or hypocritically, or unjustly. But, if it is clear that a brother or a sister in Christ is involved in sin, then we have a responsibility biblically and before God and out of love and compassion and mercy to speak to him or her about his or her sin for the purpose of repentance and restoration.

Hi Sue,
People get all caught up in this to the point they feel they have the God given right to go around correcting everyone.

They try to correct or boss their pastors around which is never correct.

They judge other people's actions and judge themselves on in tensions.

First off if you see a brother in which you feel is sin, if you are smart you pray about it and if you are led to then you go confront them.

Do you really know if they have repented or struggling? Nope you just know what you feel you saw. You as in anyone.

There is a difference between confronting a brother in private to offer prayer compared to judging them guilty of a sin and telling them they are a big fat sinner.

Blessings

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

But, this is not about "petty issues." This is about a brother or a sister in Christ sinning. If we love them, we will speak the truth in love to them, not just forgive the sin and move on. This is not about us! This is about them! If we say nothing, it probably won't end there, but most likely it will continue.

I agree if it is something serious but most use this for petty things.

"My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20

Exactly wanders from the truth. Got out in left field. Not following Christ as the word says.

That's a huge difference from what most people are judging others over.
Blessings

 

[Hekuran]

To bring a little focus, the kind of thing I have in mind is neither sin plain and simple, nor petty issues. I mentioned the first verse of Acts 6 earlier. The Helenist widows were being overlooked in the distribution of food.

What are the possible issues here? Favouritism, racial discrimination, power and control, administration, injustice. From the text, nobody was obviously in the wrong, but it needed to be addressed

 

[Lanolin]

I dont think anyone goes and tells someone else they are a big fat sinner unless they being really tactless.

Even Nathan didnt confront David directly over his big fat sin and say you wicked adulterer, repent! He just told a story about a lamb.

He knew it would convict David cos he was once a shepherd boy.

 

[Hekuran]

Even Nathan didnt confront David directly over his big fat sin and say you wicked adulterer, repent! He just told a story about a lamb.

Read the story again. Nathan follows the lamb parable with a prophecy that could hardly be more direct: "Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites."

 

[B-A-C]

One of the "tactful" things about Nathan story of the man with a lamb was that it left room for conviction.

Rom 8:1; Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Now while there may not be be condemnation for those "who are in Christ Jesus". There should still be conviction.

John 16:7; "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
John 16:8; "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

1 Thes 1:5; for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

One of the signs that the Holy Spirit dwells within you is that you are convicted of something when God is telling you to make a change in your life.
To be honest here, whenever a "Christian" makes a statement to me like, "I never feel condemned about the things I do", I always wonder... "Yes,
but are you ever convicted abut the things you do?"

If we confront people directly, it is usually taken as "we are judging them" or "we are condemning them". (sometimes that is what is needed).
But if we give them an example (perhaps a "parable") of someone doing what they are doing, and they feel convicted by it, then you know it's
the Holy Spirit working in them.

Of course the Bible does mention those who are so far gone they have no conscience anymore. Nothing can convict them.

1 Tim 4:2; by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

These people simply feel nothing anymore.

I mentioned conviction vs condemnation, when it comes to individuals. But wen it comes to the church, I think of 1 Cor chapter 5.
A lot of people think this chapter is about a man "sleeping with his father's wife". And so it is.. but the real message in this chapter is...
what is the church doing about it?

1 Cor 5:9; I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
1 Cor 5:10; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
1 Cor 5:11; But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
1 Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1 Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

As I think about this a little more...

When the woman caught in adultery (who was going to be stoned) was brought before Jesus... He says "neither do I condemn you". ( John 8:11; )
But I often wonder, is it this very act of forgiveness that brings conviction upon some people? Sometimes that's what it takes for people to feel
the weight of their sins. They don't know how much weight of guilt they are carrying until it is removed from them.

Also on the other side of this story... Jesus says "Let him who is without sin throw the first stone". ( John 8:7; )
It says He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Now of course we don't know what He really wrote on the ground... but...
I have wondered, was it perhaps some women's names? Perhaps as Jesus was writing these names, did the men in the mob
suddenly remember... "oh yeah, I forgot about that time with her". Maybe Jesus didn't condemn them either... but I wonder
if their own hearts convicted them?

John 8:8; Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
John 8:9; When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
John 8:10; Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"

 

[Hekuran]

OK, so I am seeing three broad categories within a church that may require different responses.

1. Outright ongoing, unrepentant sinful disobedience, such as the man sleeping with his father's wife in 1 Cor 5. If such a person refuses to repent, then nothing can be done and the church must disassociate from them completely.
2. Unambiguous serious sin. In such a case Nathan's approach of direct confrontation David is a good model. He highlighted the sin, allowed no room for excuses, and opened the way for David to repent and be restored.
3. Things just go wrong in the church. Because we are sinful we misunderstand each other, misinterpret each other's actions, fall foul of unintended consequences, and get upset with each others' failings and mistakes (Acts 6:1). The best way forward is to address such problems privately in the hope that the other will listen and you will be able to resolve the situation, forgive each other and have a broken relationship restored. If it can't be done with two of you, then it should be taken to the church to discern how the situation should be handled.

And - can't find any biblical backing for this - some disagreements or irritations we should simply ignore out of love or because life is simply too short to always be managing conflict.

 

[Lanolin]

Well Nathan didnt confront David directly at first is what I meant. When someone admits theyve done wrong its because they have been convicted. You dont actually do the convicting, God does a work on their heart.

OK, so I am seeing three broad categories within a church that may require different responses.

1. Outright ongoing, unrepentant sinful disobedience, such as the man sleeping with his father's wife in 1 Cor 5. If such a person refuses to repent, then nothing can be done and the church must disassociate from them completely.
2. Unambiguous serious sin. In such a case Nathan's approach of direct confrontation David is a good model. He highlighted the sin, allowed no room for excuses, and opened the way for David to repent and be restored.
3. Things just go wrong in the church. Because we are sinful we misunderstand each other, misinterpret each other's actions, fall foul of unintended consequences, and get upset with each others' failings and mistakes (Acts 6:1). The best way forward is to address such problems privately in the hope that the other will listen and you will be able to resolve the situation, forgive each other and have a broken relationship restored. If it can't be done with two of you, then it should be taken to the church to discern how the situation should be handled.

And - can't find any biblical backing for this - some disagreements or irritations we should simply ignore out of love or because life is simply too short to always be managing conflict.

There is biblical backing eg euodoas and syntache (sorry I cant remember if thsts the right spelling I know it was two women or sisters in the Lord) were having petty squabbles and Paul wrote to them to be at peace with each other. Love can cover a multitude of sin.

Jesus told Martha to stop hassling Mary when she wasnt helping in the kitchen.

S

As I think about this a little more...

When the woman caught in adultery (who was going to be stoned) was brought before Jesus... He says "neither do I condemn you". ( John 8:11; )
But I often wonder, is it this very act of forgiveness that brings conviction upon some people? Sometimes that's what it takes for people to feel
the weight of their sins. They don't know how much weight of guilt they are carrying until it is removed from them.

Also on the other side of this story... Jesus says "Let him who is without sin throw the first stone". ( John 8:7; )
It says He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Now of course we don't know what He really wrote on the ground... but...
I have wondered, was it perhaps some women's names? Perhaps as Jesus was writing these names, did the men in the mob
suddenly remember... "oh yeah, I forgot about that time with her". Maybe Jesus didn't condemn them either... but I wonder
if their own hearts convicted them?

John 8:8; Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
John 8:9; When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
John 8:10; Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"

It might have been, but interesting thst he wrote stuff down and didnt say anything. Sometimes you need to spell it out if someone doesnt listen to you. Thats why Paul wrote those letters, esp Corinthians they were having problems in that church.

And thats why we still have those letters today they make up half the new testament.

 

[Sue J Love]

What I see a lot of in the church is a move away from confronting anyone in any sin and a teaching that says "stay in your own lane," i.e. mind your own business. A lot of this comes, I believe, as a result of so many church leaders being steeped in sinful addiction themselves, and so they are leading people away from addressing sin in anyone and they are moving toward compromising the gospel message and giving feel-good messages which tickle itching ears and which appease human flesh. Another reason for this is also marketing the church like a business, thus they are gearing the church around what the world wants and around felt needs of the people of the world rather than on the Word of God. Many preachers don't even mention sin anymore or repentance or obedience because it makes people uncomfortable, and they want the world to be comfortable in the gatherings of the church, so they will want to come back to the meetings. They market the church in accord with what their customer base wants, rather than teach the unadulterated word of God, in many cases. And, so sin has spread within the church like gangrene and no one blinks an eye.

 

[Lanolin]

I think many leaders preach on things they are actually struggling with themselves.

If you in a church thats running as a business, and its trying to make a profit, you in the wrong church.

I think there are certain sinful behaviours that churches ignore completely but it should really be addressed. One thing thats shocking is the amount of porn men are exposing them to these days and thinking its ok. Its not! perving at naked people is just wrong. Women dont walk round naked for a reason.

Im sure Bathsheba didnt deliberately have her bath in the open. David was perving. Ladies be careful esp around bathrooms You dont want the neighbours looking in seeing you undressed.

I dont know why Bathsheba just didnt call the police, but what could she do, she probably didnt even know David was looking at her. If a King wants you even though you are married, what can you do. Hmm good question.

 

[amadeus2]

What we need to see and understand is God's position. There is a time to speak and a time to remain silent as God sees it. [Ecc 3:1,7]

Jesus provided us with the means, but sometimes we don't eat all of our dinner and allow it to become part of us so we will be able know what God sees in our present situation and what He wants us to do.

Some people because they have received the gift of the Holy Spirit, they already have all of the answers, but that is not so. The answers are in scripture, but the scriptures applied without the quickening of the Holy Spirit will NOT accomplish God's perfect will.

So we may know the Bible and think we are right, as everyone thinks he is right or he would change his thinking. God does changes men's thinking, but ONLY when they follow the lead of rather than quenching to Holy Spirit.

It is the Holy Spirit that brings the scriptures to Life within us, but if we don't know what the scriptures say, what is the Spirit going to bring to Life?

 

[Lanolin]

Too right amadeus I was thinking this today as going to a different church my friend was looking into and how they skipped around a lot of scriptures and it was confusing for me, its like they were snacking on the Bible taking bits here and there instead of really feeding on the Word of God and waiting for His full counsel.

I know different churches have different emphasis but I have found in my walk that certain churches will focus on one passage or verse and completely ignore the other that comes right after it.

Jesus did speak in parables so that those who would understand would hear.
And then if they didnt get it he would explain it. For example the parable of the sower. But even then some of the parables he told people just didnt get, but notice he told the parable FIRST.

I mean john the baptist was very direct and confrontational, but Jesus handled things with more grace.

John the baptists would say the axe is at the foot of the tree and needs to be cut down!
But Jesus would say dig it and manure it and wait a year to see if it bears fruit, if not, then cut it down!

 

[Hekuran]

What we need to see and understand is God's position. There is a time to speak and a time to remain silent as God sees it. [Ecc 3:1,7]

Jesus provided us with the means, but sometimes we don't eat all of our dinner and allow it to become part of us so we will be able know what God sees in our present situation and what He wants us to do.

Some people because they have received the gift of the Holy Spirit, they already have all of the answers, but that is not so. The answers are in scripture, but the scriptures applied without the quickening of the Holy Spirit will NOT accomplish God's perfect will.

So we may know the Bible and think we are right, as everyone thinks he is right or he would change his thinking. God does changes men's thinking, but ONLY when they follow the lead of rather than quenching to Holy Spirit.

It is the Holy Spirit that brings the scriptures to Life within us, but if we don't know what the scriptures say, what is the Spirit going to bring to Life?

I agree with everything said here. This helps me to clarify two ways of approaching conflict when it arises between brothers and sisters.

First, to pray, study the scriptures and seek guidance of the Spirit to make sure that you are absolutely confident in what God is leading you to say before approaching someone who has wronged you.

Or, make an approach early and with humility to someone who has sinned against you so that together you can discern God's guidance.

In real life, the two options are rarely so neat of course. I believe that most church cultures neglect the second approach, and miss out on opportunities for reconciliation and deepening fellowship.

This is something I amight considering, not a fixed position. I'd be interested in any thoughts.

 

[amadeus2]

Too right amadeus I was thinking this today as going to a different church my friend was looking into and how they skipped around a lot of scriptures and it was confusing for me, its like they were snacking on the Bible taking bits here and there instead of really feeding on the Word of God and waiting for His full counsel.

I know different churches have different emphasis but I have found in my walk that certain churches will focus on one passage or verse and completely ignore the other that comes right after it.

People and church groups often have "pet doctrines" which they fail to fully explain, if they even can. We are to be growing spiritually toward God for as long as have time to do so. We should hold no doctrines so tightly that we are unwilling, or even have become unable, to pay attention to what the Holy Spirit would say to us.

All believers started out as babies in the Lord, but God does not intend for us to remain babies.

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:12-14

 

[amadeus2]

I agree with everything said here. This helps me to clarify two ways of approaching conflict when it arises between brothers and sisters.

First, to pray, study the scriptures and seek guidance of the Spirit to make sure that you are absolutely confident in what God is leading you to say before approaching someone who has wronged you.

Or, make an approach early and with humility to someone who has sinned against you so that together you can discern God's guidance.

In real life, the two options are rarely so neat of course. I believe that most church cultures neglect the second approach, and miss out on opportunities for reconciliation and deepening fellowship.

This is something I amight considering, not a fixed position. I'd be interested in any thoughts.

Sounds like you are already the right track as I see it. But... the road is long and who but God can know what lies around the next bend.

There are really no pat or set answers to all of the problems people encounter. One time the answer to their question may be, yea, and a few days later the answer from God to what is seemingly the same question may be, nay.

Each time we are asked a question which requires an answer from God, should we not ask of Him in order to assure that it is His answer this time? God doesn't change, but people do so God's answer needs to fit what they are at this moment and where they are going at this moment. The correct answer for a baby will not be the same as for a 25 year old.

 

[Lanolin]

People and church groups often have "pet doctrines" which they fail to fully explain, if they even can. We are to be growing spiritually toward God for as long as have time to do so. We should hold no doctrines so tightly that we are unwilling, or even have become unable, to pay attention to what the Holy Spirit would say to us.

All believers started out as babies in the Lord, but God does not intend for us to remain babies.

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:12-14

Yes Ive noticed that some churches are still at baby or toddler level. This is why its beneficial to attend churches that have many elderly in their congregation, I've found, and not those that are only geared for youth. Although, a surprising number of elderly folk are unsaved these days. You wonder how they survive without Christ...as people become older ive noticed they either become more joyful or more miserable.

 

[amadeus2]

Yes Ive noticed that some churches are still at baby or toddler level. This is why its beneficial to attend churches that have many elderly in their congregation, I've found, and not those that are only geared for youth. Although, a surprising number of elderly folk are unsaved these days. You wonder how they survive without Christ...as people become older ive noticed they either become more joyful or more miserable.

Yes, old people without God will often become depressed thinking they have little or nothing left to live for... Our bodies are dying, but if we have the "new" or "inner man" growing within, we should recognize that is no need for us to ever die to God.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die..." John 11:25-26

 

[Lanolin]

One of my friends Is always sad about his mum getting old. Maybe because she isnt a believer? I dont really know what to say in that case because when people get old many give up their lives to look after them, but its so very draining sometimes to look after your parents. You become the parent.

Its kind if weird. Im finding that with my mum like Im the mum (or even the dad! At times) with her. My boss went to two funerals in the past two weeks for his parents friends.

I suppose being a mum to your mum is maybe compensation for not being a natural mum. Cos if I had children of my own I wouldnt be able to look after my mum as well...which I suppose is why there's rest homes. So when people ask my why dont you have kids well I kind of already have one except she's my mum. And then theres dad. But then shouldnt dad be looking after mum?!
Or is that just wrong or not normal...to have your parents depend on you?

Sorry this isnt on topic but...maybe its a generation thing cos is young ones think we are smarter than the oldies, well they are always asking us for help on the computer. But I know that some of them play on their ignorance and make out they are stupid when they could actually learn, its not that hard, but they just dont want to. You are never to old to learn, cos other oldies do, but I think some just give up and think if they didnt finish or graduate from school they can never go back again.

Well I went back to primary school to learn bible! And then teach it so...just dont tell the children as they think I cant be much older than them. But its surprising at how smart and how some children totally get who God is more than adults do with all their book learning and life experience.

 

[amadeus2]

The old saying, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks, is most definitely not true". What I have found in my own experience is that learning like everything else for an older person comes slower than it did when they were younger. But, quite often it is still possible. I say 'quite often', because some people do reach a point in the deterioration of their mental processes that they really cannot learn. The problem I have found in myself is that new things simply do not 'stick' very well if they are not used regularly so that they get a more solid place in mental priorities.

My old pastor [age 92 as of last month] uses a cell phone daily due to his ministry, but he regularly is hitting the wrong keys and locking things up or moving to an area of the cell phone that he doesn't know how to get out of. He only uses the cell phone for phone calls. He doesn't know how to use it for anything else. He has never been on the Internet or involved in many of things available electronically these days, so they simply confuse him. Unfortunately cell phone dealers are selling their wares to people who for the most part want a device that is able to do many things besides provide as simply means of communication between individuals. What he needs is cell phone that is only a mobile telephone.

When my pastor has trouble with his cell phone, he will mess with it until he is frustrated at being unable to fix the problem. If he finds someone who is willing and able to help him that someone will fix his phone. What commonly has happened is he ends up going to the local dealership where he bought the device [always ATT in his case] for assistance. When he does that is that they apparently realize the problem is not in the phone, but in him. He doesn't remember the fix that someone showed him yesterday. Too often instead of simply fixing it for him the dealership talks him into buying a new cell phone taking full advantage of his lack of understanding and sell him a new cell phone. He has owned more cell phones since I have known him than any other person I know. People should not take advantage others in that way, but as we all know too many of them do.

Unfortunately, since my pastor's wife died 5 years ago, he lost his best helper in dealing with the problems of the secular world. They were married for 66 years and while he focused on his ministry she handled most everything else. The gap she left in him has only partially been filled by myself and few other people in the assembly where he is the pastor.

More than once he has talked to me about getting access to the Internet via a computer at home. I try to downplay it to him because I know it would not be helpful to him. While for me it is a useful resource, for him it would be a greater headache than his cell phone. He doesn't realize why it would be such a problem for many younger ministers he knows use it regularly and are always advising him to get "online". None of them of course volunteer to be there to help me every time he gets into to trouble with it.

He still for the most part ministers to people as he has done since the 1930's and 1940's. Although he is way behind the times with our modern technology, people all over the United States and in other countries press for him to visit their church assemblies continuously. He has many more requests than he has time. He could not afford to travel even as much as he does, but those he want him to come will usually cover all of his traveling expenses. He has traveled more than anyone else I have ever known and continues to do so. He went to Israel the first time in 1963 and has been to Israel more than 30 times since then. He has visited many other nations as well as probably all of the 50 states, but never as a tourist. He always goes as and works as a minister of God. He drives his car alone thousands of miles every year to visit Christians who want to see and hear him. He says "this is my life... this is what God wants me to do". And it really is. Outside of his ministry he has no other real interests. His body is failing but God is not finished with him yet. Last month in addition to many local church visits in Oklahoma and 2 or 3 neighboring states, he went by airplane to a Christian Youth Meeting in Louisville, KY and to another Christian gathering in Vera Cruz Mexico.

He is a very old man, but his pace at 92 puts me to shame at a mere 73. Give God the glory!