I am right and you are wrong

[Hekuran]

Things go wrong in churches. Jesus gave his disciples principles to follow when the inevitable problems arise.

Matthew 18:

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

“Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.​

In my experience, most churches - and individuals within churches - do not handle internal conflict well. The tendency I have observed is to turn a blind eye to problems in the name of peace and love, then, when they get too serious to ignore, to respond in a heavy-handed and authoritarian way. It's not always like this, but I've seen it many times.

We have to make a choice in discerning what Jesus means by "listen" in this passage.

If a problem arises, we are to take it to the person involved directly and privately. The hope is that they will listen. Until now I have thought of "listen" in the sense of the other person understanding their fault and accepting my view of things. But I'm now considering it more literally: if the other person is willing to hear me out, then I have won them over. It's not about me proving them wrong, it's about each of us being willing to talk, hear the other and discern together how to respond.

This is not about saying that there isn't right and wrong, more recognising that where there is dischord there is usually a mix of right and wrong, good intentions and misunderstanding on each side.

Reconcilliation and restoration rather than discipline.

Here's the kind of thing we see often in churches: one person sees that others are not executing their responsibilities in the church well - they are late, sloppy or unprepared - so that person steps in and takes over to make sure that everything is done well. After a while they get to feel resentful that everybody looks to them to get things done and nobody else takes proper responsibility.

In the meantime others feel put out that that they have been pushed out of their roles and find that their responsibilities have been taken over. The net result is that everybody is feeling unhappy and resentful. Nobody is totally in the wrong, and nobody is perfectly right. Everybody would like everybody else to be happy.

Listening for reconcilliation in a case like this (by far the more common in churches) is more effective than talking to persuade.

 

[Lanolin]

Agreed there needs to be communication, dont talk about each other behind their backs, go to them first and if they still dont listen, go to a witness and both talk to that person in question. If they still dont listen, THEN tell it to the church!


Pretty simple.

 

[B-A-C]

One of the hardest things for me is having love for everyone.

1 Cor 13:1; If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

and yet, as important as love is... truth is equally important.

Eph 4:15; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

Truth without love is just noise, but also love without truth is equally useless.

We can love everyone, and love everything, and say God is love, everything is love and roses and everybody can love everybody.
But without the truth, that is useless. We can love people straight to hell by never telling them the truth.

Still we need to "love one another". But it occurs to me that some people have exact opposite problem that I have. They are good at loving people, they just aren't very good at telling them the truth.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you

Greetings,
Problems arise big from folks using this scripture as a directive to point out everyones fault.

If you are going to confront a brother over a sin, you need to check your self first.
Am I holding aught?
Is this really to huge to forgive?
Am I walking so perfectly that I myself have made no mistakes or sinned against anyone?
Am I walking in Love and Forgiveness?

Most of the time one should have just kept quiet.

Blessings
W4F

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

responsibilities in the church well - they are late, sloppy or unprepared - so that person steps in and takes over to make sure that everything is done well. After a while they get to feel resentful that everybody looks to them to get things done and nobody else takes proper responsibility.

Why are they late? Are they doing the best they know how to do?

If a person steps up and helps by taking the slack then Praise God.
Now there will not ever be any legitimate reason to grumble or complaining that others now expect it.

Check your heart.
Why did you step in?
LED by God or felt you had too?
If led by God then just do it and rejoice.

If done for any other reason, then you are just reaping from your actions.
Resentful in its self is a sin.
Blessings
W4F

 

[Sue J Love]

Still we need to "love one another". But it occurs to me that some people have exact opposite problem that I have. They are good at loving people, they just aren't very good at telling them the truth.

Is that really possible? I mean, God is love, but he is also truth, so if we love others with God-like love, we will speak the truth in love to them. This is not saying, obviously, that we have to tell people everything on our minds, but if we don't tell them the truth that Jesus said we should tell them, especially with regards to their salvation (or not) from sin, and it costs them eternal life with God, then we have not really loved them, or, as you say, we have "loved" them straight to hell. If we lie to people, in other words, by omitting the truth or by outright telling what is false and misleading, and in order to make them feel good about themselves, or so they will like us, that is not love. Speaking the truth "in love" is love. Lies are not loving nor are they ever kind.

 

[Hekuran]

One of the hardest things for me is having love for everyone.

1 Cor 13:1; If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

and yet, as important as love is... truth is equally important.

Eph 4:15; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

Truth without love is just noise, but also love without truth is equally useless.

We can love everyone, and love everything, and say God is love, everything is love and roses and everybody can love everybody.
But without the truth, that is useless. We can love people straight to hell by never telling them the truth.

Still we need to "love one another". But it occurs to me that some people have exact opposite problem that I have. They are good at loving people, they just aren't very good at telling them the truth.

Agree with this. Not many of us can hold truth and love in perfect balance, even though we should all strive to.

 

[Hekuran]

Is that really possible? I mean, God is love, but he is also truth, so if we love others with God-like love, we will speak the truth in love to them. This is not saying, obviously, that we have to tell people everything on our minds, but if we don't tell them the truth that Jesus said we should tell them, especially with regards to their salvation (or not) from sin, and it costs them eternal life with God, then we have not really loved them, or, as you say, we have "loved" them straight to hell. If we lie to people, in other words, by omitting the truth or by outright telling what is false and misleading, and in order to make them feel good about themselves, or so they will like us, that is not love. Speaking the truth "in love" is love. Lies are not loving nor are they ever kind.

This is true. But the focus of Jesus' teaching here is dealing with problems within the body of Christ. It cropped up very quickly (Acts 6) in the early days of the church.

 

[Hekuran]

Greetings,
Problems arise big from folks using this scripture as a directive to point out everyones fault.

If you are going to confront a brother over a sin, you need to check your self first.
Am I holding aught?
Is this really to huge to forgive?
Am I walking so perfectly that I myself have made no mistakes or sinned against anyone?
Am I walking in Love and Forgiveness?

Most of the time one should have just kept quiet.

Blessings
W4F

Yes. Jesus was not setting out a charter for constantly pointing out everybody else's faults and failings.

Personally, if I have caused someone hurt, I would rather they come to me early and let me know so that it can be resolved rather than let it linger and create a distance between us.

 

[Sue J Love]

This is true. But the focus of Jesus' teaching here is dealing with problems within the body of Christ. It cropped up very quickly (Acts 6) in the early days of the church.

Same truth applies. Notice how many of Paul's writings deal with or allude to the fact that not everyone within the gatherings of the church were true followers of Jesus Christ. He would use words such as "if you are in Christ," or "if we have been united with him in a death like his" or "if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you" to let people who called themselves Christians know what it means to be a Christian and to instruct them regarding sin, righteousness and judgment, lest they had bought into a false hope and they thought that how they lived didn't matter, now that they were under grace. He spoke to the church often on these issues.

As well, many who are truly born again Christians have wandered away from their pure devotion to Jesus Christ and they need to be brought back to God in full surrender to his will for their lives. So, they need to be told the truth of what the Bible teaches regarding righteousness and holiness, but it needs to be coupled with love or "in love." Yet, not one of us have done this perfectly, I would suspect. Yet, we need to endeavor to do so.

 

[Sue J Love]

Things go wrong in churches. Jesus gave his disciples principles to follow when the inevitable problems arise.

Matthew 18:

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

“Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.​

In my experience, most churches - and individuals within churches - do not handle internal conflict well. The tendency I have observed is to turn a blind eye to problems in the name of peace and love, then, when they get too serious to ignore, to respond in a heavy-handed and authoritarian way. It's not always like this, but I've seen it many times.

We have to make a choice in discerning what Jesus means by "listen" in this passage.

If a problem arises, we are to take it to the person involved directly and privately. The hope is that they will listen. Until now I have thought of "listen" in the sense of the other person understanding their fault and accepting my view of things. But I'm now considering it more literally: if the other person is willing to hear me out, then I have won them over. It's not about me proving them wrong, it's about each of us being willing to talk, hear the other and discern together how to respond.

This is not about saying that there isn't right and wrong, more recognising that where there is dischord there is usually a mix of right and wrong, good intentions and misunderstanding on each side.

Reconcilliation and restoration rather than discipline.

Here's the kind of thing we see often in churches: one person sees that others are not executing their responsibilities in the church well - they are late, sloppy or unprepared - so that person steps in and takes over to make sure that everything is done well. After a while they get to feel resentful that everybody looks to them to get things done and nobody else takes proper responsibility.

In the meantime others feel put out that that they have been pushed out of their roles and find that their responsibilities have been taken over. The net result is that everybody is feeling unhappy and resentful. Nobody is totally in the wrong, and nobody is perfectly right. Everybody would like everybody else to be happy.

Listening for reconcilliation in a case like this (by far the more common in churches) is more effective than talking to persuade.

It would appear to me that you are speaking here of two different scenarios (or situations). The first is the one addressed in the Matthew 18 passage, and it has to do with a brother or a sister sinning against another. In other words, what they are doing is clearly wrong. It is sin. They are lying, cheating, stealing, committing adultery, and/or gossiping, etc. And, listening here is not merely hearing with physical ears, but it has to do with heeding what was said, i.e. the implication is that the individual confessed the wrong, repented of it, and made it right by reconciling with those he had sinned against. Otherwise he didn't really listen. Remember the passage about having ears to hear but not really hearing. We can hear with our ears but not really listen to one another. We can hear and then shut the other person out and go right on doing what we were doing before. Kind of like the man who looked in the mirror only to walk away and forget what he looked like. We have not won anyone over if it doesn't result in change, but they keep right on doing what they were doing. And, it isn't about whether or not they accept our view of things, but whether or not they accept God's view. If God calls it sin, then it is sin. Period! It is not disputable.

The other scenario I believe you are presenting has more to do with disputable matters having to do with differences of opinion or practice or style or personality makeup or whatever, but has nothing to do directly with anyone sinning, otherwise you could not have what you suggested regarding no one being totally wrong or right. Either the person stole or they didn't steal. They either lied or they didn't lie. Even if the truth was mixed in with the lie, it is still a lie. Some things really are that black and white. But, then there are those disputable matters where it truly is a matter of my view versus your view, and there is room there to bend one way or another, i.e to compromise, perhaps, on the non-essentials, and to find middle ground or a place of agreement, but never with regard to sin, salvation, judgment, eternal life, etc., i.e. what is a matter of truth or lies, eternity with God or eternity in hell. There is no bending there in order to make peace. But, in disputable matters, as you gave examples of, there can be room to move in one direction or another. In cases like that, what you said is true, that this can be more effective than trying to persuade people. But, regarding sin, salvation, the gospel, eternal life, i.e. the essentials (black and white), persuasion is absolutely necessary, and we should never compromise!

 

[Sue J Love]

Greetings,
Problems arise big from folks using this scripture as a directive to point out everyones fault.

If you are going to confront a brother over a sin, you need to check your self first.
Am I holding aught?
Is this really to huge to forgive?
Am I walking so perfectly that I myself have made no mistakes or sinned against anyone?
Am I walking in Love and Forgiveness?

Most of the time one should have just kept quiet.

Blessings
W4F

"Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Matt. 7:3-5

Yes, it is wrong to judge hypocritically and to speak with a brother or a sister about his or her sin when we are sinning in the same areas or at even a greater degree than they are. And, yes, we should examine our own hearts, but then we must remove the log out of our own eyes. Absolutely! But, the counsel here is not to keep silent (quiet) and to ignore the sin in our brother or sister, but it is to remove our own log and then we will see clearly to take the speck out of our brother's or sister's eye.

"Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted." Gal. 6:1

So, you are correct in saying we should examine our own hearts and lives, but it doesn't stop there. It sounds, from what you stated, as though one could do nothing more than examine his own life but then never change how he is living, and in order to not be hypocritical, say nothing to the other person. But, the biblical principle is to change our lives in the power and working of God's Spirit living within us, then we will have the right to speak to a brother or sister about his or her sin, because we will be walking in the Spirit and no longer according to our flesh. And, we confront a brother or a sister who is sinning not because we enjoy pointing out everyone's faults, but because God's love compels us, because if we keep silent, the brother or sister will most likely continue in the sin, and that is not love. That is utter selfishness! Most of the time we say nothing, I believe, because we don't want that other person to not like us, because when we speak the truth in love, many will reject us, for sure.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

"Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Matt. 7:3-5

Yes, it is wrong to judge hypocritically and to speak with a brother or a sister about his or her sin when we are sinning in the same areas or at even a greater degree than they are. And, yes, we should examine our own hearts, but then we must remove the log out of our own eyes. Absolutely! But, the counsel here is not to keep silent (quiet) and to ignore the sin in our brother or sister, but it is to remove our own log and then we will see clearly to take the speck out of our brother's or sister's eye.

"Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted." Gal. 6:1

So, you are correct in saying we should examine our own hearts and lives, but it doesn't stop there. It sounds, from what you stated, as though one could do nothing more than examine his own life but then never change how he is living, and in order to not be hypocritical, say nothing to the other person. But, the biblical principle is to change our lives in the power and working of God's Spirit living within us, then we will have the right to speak to a brother or sister about his or her sin, because we will be walking in the Spirit and no longer according to our flesh. And, we confront a brother or a sister who is sinning not because we enjoy pointing out everyone's faults, but because God's love compels us, because if we keep silent, the brother or sister will most likely continue in the sin, and that is not love. That is utter selfishness! Most of the time we say nothing, I believe, because we don't want that other person to not like us, because when we speak the truth in love, many will reject us, for sure.

What I mean is simply this,
If one feels they need to go confront some one over just forgiving and moving on then one needs to examine ones own life.

More times then none it ends right there. It's the old. He without sin throw the first stone.
If one is honest, their petty issue is nothing compared to their own falts.
Blessings

 

[Edward]

New Greetings,
Problems arise big from folks using this scripture as a directive to point out everyones fault.

If you are going to confront a brother over a sin, you need to check your self first.
Am I holding aught?
Is this really to huge to forgive?
Am I walking so perfectly that I myself have made no mistakes or sinned against anyone?
Am I walking in Love and Forgiveness?

Most of the time one should have just kept quiet.

When the Pharisees stoned Stephen to death Saul of Tarsus was in attendance approving it. Saul would most definitely have heard Stephen's cry "Father forgive them for this"(Acts 7:60). This same Saul who approved the death of Stephen went to the leaders of the synagogue and demanded letters of authority so that he could increase his persecution against the disciples. But something had been lit. Those words of Stephen I believe began the process of Saul's conversion that was completed when on the road to Damascus he had an encounter with the Jesus the disciples preached.

Saul became Paul the preacher who preached FORGIVENESS to the gentiles. The death of Stephen paved the way for the one who required much forgiveness to be a witness of that forgiveness Stephen gave to those who killed him, INCLUDING HIMSELF!

THE POINT IS:

Our pain and troubles are the catalyst for someone to see the miracles of God at work. Stephen ran his race and is now waiting for his reward with the rest of the believers. Because of his faith many believed in the truth found in Jesus. Our suffering is but for a small season but the fruit of it will remain for eternity. Don't be discouraged if people persecute you because you never know, there could be the next vessel God has chosen and your faith is the ignition to their call!!

The Truth is in God's word and God's word never contradicts itself. No one is without sin and all Christian should speak load and clear in the truth of God's Word.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

if we keep silent, the brother or sister will most likely continue in the sin, and that is not love.

The problem there is what others consider a sin that needs to be brought up.

First off the Holy Spirit will convict.
Second where is their light level?
They may not even understand what they are doing is wrong yet.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Those words of Stephen I believe began the process of Saul's conversion that was completed when on the road to Damascus he had an encounter with the Jesus the disciples preached.

I don't think he even paid any attention to what was said.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Our pain and troubles are the catalyst for someone to see the miracles of God at work.

I wish that were true but far too many times people pain and troubles go without change because they believe God is in control of everything instead of grasping it was an attack from the enemy.
Blessings

 

[Edward]

Final words from me,
Too many Christians focus on one verse. Instead of reading the paragraph or chapter and looking for the lesson in God's word. What was God trying to tell us in those scripture's, and how can we applied it in our life's today. The ability to listen to the Holy Spirit as he guides you in these lessons is vital to the Christian life. Just as the ability to apply God's word in our life is vital to our salvation.

May you all be blessed in God's word and anointed in with His mercy, love and grace.

 

[Sue J Love]

What I mean is simply this,
If one feels they need to go confront some one over just forgiving and moving on then one needs to examine ones own life.

More times then none it ends right there. It's the old. He without sin throw the first stone.
If one is honest, their petty issue is nothing compared to their own falts.
Blessings

But, this is not about "petty issues." This is about a brother or a sister in Christ sinning. If we love them, we will speak the truth in love to them, not just forgive the sin and move on. This is not about us! This is about them! If we say nothing, it probably won't end there, but most likely it will continue.

"My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20

We need to love one another above loving ourselves enough to be willing to speak the truth in love in hopes that the brother or sister sinning will be brought to repentance and will be restored in his or her relationship with the Lord and with those whom he or she has sinned against.

Regarding the passage of scripture you referenced, the Pharisees used this woman caught in adultery to try to trick Jesus. I always find it interesting that she was the one caught, but if it was adultery, in those days, anyway, there had to be someone with whom she was committing adultery who was also caught, but he was not the one brought forward. Anyway, the woman had already been confronted with her sin, but the Pharisees and teachers of the law were not confronting her in order to restore her but to condemn her to death, and not really because they felt that they were doing right, but because they hated Jesus and they were hoping to trip him up. So, when Jesus said that he who is without sin should throw the first stone, he was addressing their hatred, their hypocrisy and their willingness to use this woman to get at Jesus, as well as I am almost certain he had a list of their other sins, too.

Yet, the purpose of confronting a brother or a sister with their sins (Matt. 18; Jas. 5:19-21; Gal. 6:1) is not to condemn them, nor to use them, nor to try to trick anyone, and it should never be done hypocritically. The purpose is LOVE, pure and simple, as we lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters in order to see them go free from their sins. If we are speaking the truth in love to them so that they can be brought back to pure devotion to Christ and to the truth, and so they will forsake their sin and the lies of the enemy, that is the ultimate in giving our lives for others, for we know we risk being hated, rejected and falsely accused in return. It is also following in Jesus' footsteps.

 

[Sue J Love]

The problem there is what others consider a sin that needs to be brought up.

First off the Holy Spirit will convict.
Second where is their light level?
They may not even understand what they are doing is wrong yet.

Where does the scripture teach what you are saying? The Bible speaks loud and clear on this issue. We are not to judge condemningly or hypocritically, or unjustly. But, if it is clear that a brother or a sister in Christ is involved in sin, then we have a responsibility biblically and before God and out of love and compassion and mercy to speak to him or her about his or her sin for the purpose of repentance and restoration. This is not about what you or I or anyone else regards as a sin. Our opinion does not matter. This is about what God calls sin. And, if they do not know they are doing wrong, all the more someone should care enough about them to tell them the truth in love, so that they do know what they are doing is wrong, and so they have the opportunity to turn from their sin and to turn back to God in purity and in full assurance of faith and obedience. Many people continue in sin because no one gives a rat, and that is a very sad reality. What they need is for someone to confront them, and for some that will be what is necessary to get them out of their sin and back into a right relationship with God. Others will continue in sin regardless of confrontation.