He's not a Genocidal Tyrant!

[Adrenalyze]

I take part in a different forum where I am just about the only Christian amongst about 1200 other users of the site and it's often down to me to try and answer themany questions people have about the Bible.

I am no expert so I often have trouble in finding the answers they want, however there is one individual who constantly refers to God as a 'genocidal tyrant' because of "the times in the Bible where God wipes out those who do not submit to his demands of worship".

Now I know my God is not a 'genocidal tyrant' but can anyone give me suggestions from the Bible which I can put in as a reply to these untrue allegations?

TIA

 

[Chad]

Please provide the specific Scripture verses your referring to, I will look up some study information for you to share with them.

 

[Adrenalyze]

Thanks, he often mentions where "millions were killed by Saul at God's command".

He also talks about the innocent children who were killed at the Passover and also in the flood.

 

[Chad]

I know this thread will receive a nice amount of replies, which is a great thing. I will start off with some articles that seem to be related to your topic. They are from gotquestions.org (amazing website by the way)

Question: "Why did God command the extermination of the Canaanites, women and children included?"

Answer: In 1 Samuel 15:2-3, God commanded Saul and the Israelites, “This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" God ordered similar things when the Israelites were invading the promised land (Deuteronomy 2:34; 3:6; 20:16-18). Why would God have the Israelites exterminate an entire group of people, women and children included?

This is honestly a very difficult issue. I do not fully understand why God would command such a thing, but at the same time I trust God that He is just – and I recognize that I am incapable of fully understanding a sovereign, infinite, and eternal God. As we look at difficult issues such as this one, we have to remember that God’s ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:9; Romans 11:33-36). We have to be willing to trust God and have faith in Him even when we do not understand His ways.

I will use the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:2-3) as an example. Unlike us, God knows the future. God knew what the results would be if Israel did not completely eradicate the Amalekites. If Israel did not complete God’s orders, the Amalekites would come back to “haunt” the Israelites again and again. Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king Agag (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously Saul was lying…just a couple of decades later there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men’s families captive (1 Samuel 30:1-2). After David and his men attacked the Amalekites and rescued their families, 400 Amalekites escaped. If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred. Several hundred years later, a descendant of Agag, Haman, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated (see the book of Esther). So, Saul’s incomplete obedience almost resulted in Israel’s destruction. God knew this would occur, so He ordered the extermination of the Amalekites ahead of time.

In regards to the Canaanites, God commanded, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:16-18). The Israelites failed in this mission as well, and exactly what God said would happen occurred (Judges 2:1-3; 1 Kings 11:5; 14:24; 2 Kings 16:3-4). God did not order the extermination of these people to be cruel, but rather to prevent even greater evil from occurring in the future.

Probably the most difficult part of these commands from God is that God ordered the death of children and infants as well. Why would God order the death of innocent children? (1) Children are not innocent (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). (2) These children would have likely grown up as adherents to the evil religions and practices of their parents. (3) By ending their lives as children, God enabled them to have entrance into Heaven. We strongly believe that all children who die are accepted into Heaven by the grace and mercy of God (2 Samuel 12:22-23; Mark 10:14-15; Matthew 18:2-4). For more information, click here.

Again, this answer does not completely deal with all the issues. Our focus should be on trusting God even when we do not understand His ways. We also have to remember that God looks at things from an eternal perspective, and that His ways are higher than our ways. God is just, righteous, holy, loving, merciful, and gracious. How His attributes work together can be a mystery to us – but that does not mean that He is not who the Bible proclaims Him to be.

 

[Chad]

Another great article read from www.gotquestions.org

Question: "Is God fair?"

Answer: Is God fair? That depends entirely on your definition of the word fair. If by fair, you mean God treats everyone the same, then no, God is not fair. We often have the mindset that unless everyone is treated equally, it is not fair. Parents with two children must give equal amounts of presents, spend equal amounts of time, etc., etc. – all in attempts to be fair. God does not deal with humanity in this way. God is good, gracious, loving, forgiving – but He is also just, righteous, and holy. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23) and are therefore worthy of eternal death (Romans 6:23). If we all received what we deserve, we would all end up in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). God is good, so He sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross in our place, taking the punishment that we deserve (2 Corinthians 5:21). All we have to do is believe in Him and we will be saved, forgiven, and promised an eternal home in heaven (John 3:16).

However, despite God’s loving grace, no one would believe in Him on their own (Romans 3:10-18). God has to draw us to Him in order for us to believe (John 6:44). God does not draw everyone, but only certain people He has sovereignly chosen (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5,11). This is not “fair” since God is not treating all people equally. However, God does not have to choose anyone. Those whom God has chosen are receiving God’s love and grace. Those whom God has not chosen are receiving what they truly deserve. So, in this sense, God is being fair. Those who reject Him receive the punishment they deserve (John 3:18,36). Those who believe are receiving far more. No one, though, is being punished beyond what they deserve. So, this is fair. I invite you to read the parable found in Matthew chapter 20, verses 1-16. In our minds, that is not fair. It is an example, though, of God being gracious to some and fair to everyone.

 

[Adrenalyze]

This is very good stuff, thank you very much. I shall probably post back here with more of his claims again soon.

 

[Adrenalyze]

Hi all

My apologies for bumping a 2 year old thread but the same arguments are being thrown about, we're talking about prayer and how it can save someone's life if they are dying, he is now saying there's no way God can be loving if He'd only intervene if he was asked to (ie via prayer).

What can I say to counter him?

 

[DeaconBob3]

You might try this:

God is a loving father and he is also righteous. When He created man (and woman), He gave him (them), Free will choice. God is all powerful and He could force us do anything He wished us to do, but His righteousness causes Him to step back and allow us to choose.

We can choose to do right. We can choose to do wrong. We can ask Him to help us or to help someone else. But, we have to choose to do that because we believe that He can do something that we cannot do. We have to believe that He is able to do what we are asking Him to do and we have to trust Him to do it.

Faith is a choice and it is based upon trusting that He is God and that He is, that He exists and that He is able.

 

[Helena]

Amen DeaconBob3!!!

It's interesting to me when the very people who are proponents for being "free" to do your own thing and make your own choices, always question why God would want to be asked for help, salvation, etc. These very people accuse God of being an ego maniac and harsh. They don't respect or can't see the fact that God didn't create us as robots to do His bidding; but gave man free will. This to me shows ultimate love, to give the object of your love and desire the choice to reject you.

Those that would call God harsh are proud. 1 pet. 5:5 we see ......God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. A proud person does not examine themselves and see the state of sin they are in and how they can't get themselves out. A proud person wants to believe they can do it on their own.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=vRefb>
</TD><TD class=vDispb></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[cerebus]

Genesis 1:26**And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

Genesis 18:17**And Jehovah said, Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do...?

Isaiah 59:16**And He saw that there was no man, And He was appalled that there was no intercessor. Therefore His arm accomplished salvation for Him, And His righteousness sustained Him.

Matthew 6:9*You then pray in this way...Your kingdom come; Your will be done, as in heaven, so also on earth.

Matthew 18:18**Truly I say to you, Whatever you bind on the earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on the earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

There is a spiritual principle that God has determined that man should be a kind of deputy authority on the earth for Him. It is not that He cannot act without man, but that in a sense He has restricted Himself to acting through man - in harmony with man's intercession. This is how He prefers to act. However God will act at times without any involvement from man:

Mark 5:38**And they came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and He saw a commotion and people weeping and wailing greatly.
5:39**And He entered in and said to them, Why do you make a commotion and weep? The child has not died but is sleeping.
5:40**And they laughed scornfully at Him. But He, putting them all out, took the father of the child and the mother and those with Him and went in to where the child was.
5:41**And He took hold of the child's hand and said to her, Talitha koum! which being interpreted is, Little girl, to you I say, Arise!

Nevertheless, God chooses to be restricted very often; He delights that man would cooperate with Him to carry out His will on the earth.

 

[Br. Bear]

he is now saying there's no way God can be loving if He'd only intervene if he was asked to (ie via prayer).

What can I say to counter him?

Since this person like to reason, perhaps ask this.... since you figure God should do as He is asked, is it not very fair that you do the same... all He asks is for you to believe... can you do that? If not, then why question God?

Bless you..... keep the faith in Jesus name.