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Hello from JJ50

Discussion in 'Introduction' started by JJ50, Apr 26, 2014.

  1. Sorry JJ50 that the people in our world including too many of those called Christian by themselves and/or others miss the mark. They do and too often admittedly, so do I. This where we sometimes are even if we are approaching more closely to God.

    You have read the Bible and made conclusions based on what? Your own heart and/or mind, which is/are filled with bad experiences and poor examples. You have read the description of Jesus as he is depicted in the 4 gospels and must understand that the mess he encountered there in the ancient land of Palestine has many similarities to the mess you see here today among too many of those who are called Christians.

    Jesus saw the mess but he did not throw out the whole mess. He looked for the hearts desirous of something better. He found really only a few and those few needed a lot of help. Consider that maybe, just maybe, the mess you see today is similar. There are a few hearts that really have immersed themselves in the Lord and have found the truth of God. Unfortunately, you have looked for the evil and because that evil has been your experience , I would say that that is what you have found. This is what the ancient Israelites under Moses and under most of the kings of ancient Israel found. They, for the most part, found none of the good of God, because they really did not want to...

    Today, many (most?) of those who bear the label Christian have found none of the good of God, because they really do not want matter what they may say: "By their fruits shall you know them". They find that which they really want as did those ancient ones. People, men of flesh and blood, too often have not changed nor have they been changed. But... don't throw out the baby with the bathwater:

    Perhaps you recall this verse or have had it mentioned to you previously:

    "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

    Don't look so much to the masses of Christians who seem so often to show such poor examples. There are some good examples, but good examples are not necessarily rich in material things nor are they necessarily the best of Bible students. According the way you are really seeking will be determined the way and the kind of answers you will receive.

    Studying the Bible will do you no good if the study is done with the wrong attitude for the wrong reasons.

    I won't try to convince you that God is. I know in my heart that He is, but I cannot transfer that knowledge to a heart that is not open. Jesus could not, and I am not Jesus. God gave each of us the right to go along our own ways and you are certainly not the first one to go along those ways. No one can win you to God against your will. Many people are willing to help, but the ball is really in your court.
  2. If people believe the deeds attributed to deity portrayed in the Bible to be factual, it is no wonder some Christians behave very badly as its behaviour leaves a lot to be desired, imo.
  3. The deity portrayed is what you, JJ50, see, what you interpret. Alone, without God's help, no one can understand what it is he or she read in scripture. This is one reason why you see not one church confessing Jesus in this world, but literally many dozens presenting often contradictory beliefs. Those who believe and have accepted what is offered by God do not fully understand yet. This is the seeing through a glass darkly of which Paul writes.

    Truth can only be found by the Word of God, but the Word of God is a living thing. The Bible alone is not alive. Rather it will come to Life in a person by means of the Holy Spirit, not at a person's discretion by a person's surrender.

    Christians, who have received the Holy Spirit, and then behave badly do so because they do not surrender and continue to surrender to that Spirit within them. We have the authority to do "our own thing" and too many people having received the Holy Spirit still insist on doing just that: their own thing. God will not force feed anyone. Force feeding is a man thing.

    Do not presume that because you have read the Bible many times that you understand God. Do not presume that because your human mind has sifted through things you have read in the Bible that you know all of the answers to the ultimate questions. It is not those who have the Einstein level brains who alone will understand God. The God which I serve and which you doubt or even reject is fair. That is what this verse means:

    But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48
  4. So called 'spirit filled' Christians often behave in a crazy way. When I was a kid, there were two 'spirit filled' Christians who used to 'entertain'us each Sunday morning at the Pentecostal church we attended. They would do the speaking in tongues aka goobledegook business, usually at very inappropriate times during the service. Us kids thought it hilarious, although many adults in the congregation found it embarrassing. Remember the infamous 'Toronto Blessing' when some of the congregation week around barking like dogs? If the Holy Spirit exits if must have been having a 'larf' to encourage such silliness!
  5. Crazy is a word that can be taken in more than one way. Your take is apparently negative.

    There are fakers almost everywhere in the midst of some who are trying to be honest. This is so among non-Christians as well as Christians. I won't speak specifically for or against what happened in Toronto as I don't know. That is just one of many other places I haven't been, but I have been a lot of places among many different people.

    There a few people I have learned to trust and there are also some I have learned to distrust. Before I head down either one of those streets for a new acquaintance I try to remain open and give the person a chance. Do you really not want to hear anything good? Is your purpose to learn or is it simply to tear down because you are certain you know more than anyone on this forum might know?

    Generalizing is usually not a good thing, in churches or outside of them. Last time I saw a figure on it there were not less than 30,000 groups or churches calling themselves Christian. Are all of them right in all their beliefs? Are all of them wrong? If you sincerely believe they are all wrong, why do you bother to stay on this forum? I know I am not the first one to ask you that. I haven't seen a definite answer from you. Do you know why you are still here?

    If you sincerely believe that any of those 30,000 plus groups might have something worthwhile why don't you give any of them a chance instead of attacking without provocation? Oh, you may think you have provocation based on your own experience but that is condemning an awful lot of people 'sight unseen', isn't it?

    I cannot change your life and no person here or anywhere else can either. We may be able to sympathize or empathize but without a caring God what hope do you have? Paul, the apostle, spoke of being miserable if hope was restricted to this natural life alone. Is that where you are? Do you believe there is there is no hope of finding satisfaction, or contentment, or happiness or a more definite purpose in your life? Does your answer to that question have some bearing on why you continue to be a member of this forum? This forum does have a purpose, but I hardly believe it includes providing a place for people to spout off indefinitely against any Christian belief without any more understanding than you have shown thus far. You have likely experienced or read about only a rather small portion of Christendom and come up with lots of negatives. There really are many positives if you were interested in hearing them.
  6. What positives? I have absolutely no problem with mainstream Christians who have a live and let live approach to the topic. But I have a major problem with some of the 'born again' Christians who keep telling people they will burn in hell unless they convert. I make no apology for challenging that dogma as it is so abusive, especially when aimed at children and the vulnerable.
  7. #27 amadeus2, May 26, 2014
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
    Having lived for God for many years I have a positive note on the whole thing. I do try to stand on that positive side because I believe that is where God wants me to stand. The positives are not necessarily to be seen among the majority designated as Christians. Jesus was very much in a minority often being just one person against a multitude when moved into some controversial areas or among people who simply did not understand.

    Your statement to allow others to live and let live is OK in a measure. Here you are on a Christian forum where just by being here you, just by your presence, invite questions.

    My own stand on pushiness is closer to where you are than to what you describe as among some 'born again' Christians. I do believe in the words written by Paul stating clearly that only God gives the increase... but frequently He does work through people. Solomon also wrote in Ecclesiastes 3 that there is a time to be silent and a time to speak. Unfortunately, some people do not hear God very well (if at all) and seem to believe that God needs their help. God may want people's help, but He certainly does not need it.

    Having said this, I stand with Jesus on not being willing to compromise my beliefs. But sometimes God may cause a willing heart to change beliefs. He certainly has done so more than once with me. The difficulty for me and for other believers, is that we may at times be wrong because we have not heard what we need to hear from God... not yet. (In cases perhaps not ever.) Our primary witness however, I believe, should be our lives. It was that kind of a witness that brought me to God in 1976. I have met a few who definitely have had such a witness, but unfortunately, as it seems to me, there are too many who talk a talk without walking a corresponding walk. I have without doubt mis-stepped during my years, but I am not at the end of the road... yet. Christians are still fallible people subject to errors. Hopefully, we are trusting God to increase in His direction and away from further errors.

    Alone a person cannot live for God as God would really have him to live. Some over zealous people, I believe, overstep themselves by trying to force-feed people. Jesus never did that. Neither should we.

    I noticed that you also failed to answer my questions with regard to your purpose. That's OK for me as those things, when it comes down to it, are none of my business. Others, may have different ideas.
  8. I suppose my purpose is to try to ascertain why some Christians find the 'born again' version of Christianity acceptable? Obviously if my presence on this forum is upsetting to people then I will remove myself.
  9. Don't get in too much of a hurry. Your way of thinking may help some people find themselves better. Some who really believe they are saved or are being saved; or are born again or being born again, should have a good spirit (attitude) toward others, even towards those with whom they disagree. We (Christians or followers of Jesus) must love one another, if we are what we are supposed to be.

    I am a 'dyed in the wool' follower of Jesus, but I readily admit that I have learned much from others, including unbelievers. If my belief is good and sure, why should I worry about what another person may say or believe. Why should anyone? When many of Jesus' followers were leaving him, he asked the 12, his closest followers if they would leave as well. He was not going to compromise because he knew (I believe) that he was correct. I may be wrongs in points, but I have no doubt about the main thing.

  10. I just want you to know that you are not alone in your experiences. Tales of inhumanity against each other can be cataloged that history itself could be title "The History of Inhumanity". The pages filled with atrocities of all kind, perpetrated by man upon man for every imaginable reason. Justifying actions as numerous; for god, country, humanity, health, wealth, gain, loss, even love. You name it and every twisted convoluted though of man is but a reflection of their vanity. No JJ you are not alone. Yet you know also that what happened to you had nothing to do with what Christianity; the Gospel is about. If you had, your daughter would not be going into ministry unless she jumped over your dead prone body. For I honestly believe because of what happened to you as a child, that in bringing up your own children you were more of a momma bear in protecting them, listening to them, being there when they needed you most, no matter the circumstances.

    Yet it's not their deeds that move you in anyway. It's the fact they leave you to live your life as you choose to, without any attempt in telling you the truth. They are almost as bad as those who were the perpetrators and disbelievers of the abuse you went through as a child. Charles Spurgeon once said “If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for.”

    You like theories. If you knowing that warning a loved one would upset them and maybe even have them hate you, but keep them from sure death. Would you warn them or leave them unwarned and to their own devices? To what lengths would you go to prevent that sure death you knew was coming? If I upset you, that is not my intent, but if it does, yet has you take stock of what you currently believe to be true against the truth that Jesus Christ died for you on the Cross and the implications of that act and what it means to you as an individual. Then joyful I am. Only one Apostle died of old age. All the others were put to death. Many given the choice to recant their faith and live, or keep on believing and die. None recanted. All died. Yet all they did was spread the good news, and help people. That was all. It seems all you want is for them to do good, but keep quiet about the reason why they do what they do. Somehow the concept of evangelism is hateful to you. Why? That it damages children? You've seen history. Man does not require any basis for hurting them. Here is a link to a testimony here at TJ, that might make for interesting reading. Another horror story if you will.

    The problem is that you are dealing from the premise that there are good people or that societies concept of good and evil are valid. As an atheist, good and evil are really non-existent concepts so for this to be the denominator by which you would weight Christianity that admits that all people are sinners and there are no good people, is unreasonable wouldn't you say? Christianity begins with the understanding that "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Thereby confirming what we already know. Man can, has, and will do that which keeps us separate from God.

    As far as the Hitler theory and the possibility of their conversion. This is really a theory. Those that you speak of either don't believe in a God, are trying to get back at God, or think that they are God. What they do on their deathbeds is exactly consistent with the lives they've lived. Stalin who on his deathbed is quoted to have cursed God. This is perfectly consistent with the life he led. There was no value of life. For they had already made a determination of who they are, and what life is or is not outside of God. Mouthing a few words, are not what conversion is about. It is an acknowledgement, and understanding, with belief of what the Gospel is about and trusting in faith that what is being promised is true. The change or "rebirth" that one under goes is not complete from one moment to the next. The growth process like a child in learning continues well after the conversion.

    You have read the Bible in its entirety and been on numerous Christian forums. I'm most interested in how you would communicate the following: What is the Gospel? What Good News does it communicate?

    Were it so, I'd be relieved for you. Sadly, that will not be the case for any of us. The bible and said documents of antiquity are sufficient in quantity that historians, archeologists acknowledge the accuracy of said writings. They've even done a turn around when it comes to Luke and the book of acts, as archaeological finds seem to bear out people, places, and things within his writings comparable to any other document found from antiquity. That the writings of Paul clearly show that there were people who would confirm that they saw and were in the presence of Jesus Christ after His crucifixion and death, yet the telling of witness' also seems insufficient for you. A court of law would clearly have accepted the testimonies of these people in their day and in fact the courts of this day require even fewer witnesses as proof! Look at the court cases of history and ask the same thing. It's only writings just like the bible. Also, using witness' long dead and buried. It's concepts that you don't understand or agree with. Walls built by mostly experiences, not science as many profess. You should take a long at the intelligent design debate sometime and see that even in science it's not truth that wins out, but just another belief systems that just doesn't include God in the equation.

    Look up this video on YouTube you'll see what I mean: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (full movie)

    I really do pray that you continue here at TJ. You have not be unkind, or obnoxious in stating where you are coming from. As I pray I have not been to you.
    In the love of Christ Jesus JJ50.
  11. People are obviously entitled to their own opinions on matters of religion, just as I am entitled to mine. Having read the Bible many times I think it is open to a lot of interpretations, hence the many doctrines, dogmas, sects and cults which make up Christianity. I realise that the 'born agains' think only they have the 'truth' of the matter, but as there is not the slightest bit of factual evidence to support their version, or that of anyone else for that matter, it is all a matter of conjecture not fact.
  12. Nonsense. You cannot choose how to interpret the bible. Where do you get such claims as this? Nothing but airing your own opinion. Mind explaining why you are deliberately ignoring my previous questions to you when I attempted to help you? It's clear you're unwilling to learn. You're not fooling anyone coming to a Christian site to spout your hatred toward God and Christians meanwhile ignoring every offer of help and sympathy.

    You reap what you sow. You burden yourself with this weight on your shoulders. And as for evidence, I won't repeat myself, as I already mentioned plenty enough to you.
  13. There is no verifiable evidence at all. I don't hate ALL Christians at all I do dislike the very abusive proselytisers who try to frighten the vulnerable and gullible into conversion with hell-fire myths!

    Look if you want me to remove myself from the forum, say so!
  14. So you admit you "hate" some. You also continue with your claims that the bible is mythical, hell is a myth, so forth. Yet, where's your proof?

    Want biblical proof? Read the questions I asked you more than once before. That's a starter. But are you intellectually honest to do so? At this point you've proven to not be.
  15. I said DISLIKE, there is a difference between dislike and hate! You have given no proof, just assumptions based on the Bible. Of course it could be true, but as that is so highly unlikely I am not wasting any sleep over it. It is for people making claims for the much less than credible like the stuff featured in the Bible, to provide proof which is verifiable.

    Pardon me for saying it, but you seem to have rather a lot of angst about your faith. I have noticed in the past that when people get really upset with my take on religious matters, it often means they are having doubts, which they have no wish to acknowledge.
  16. That's quite interesting. I do not have angst about my faith. You see, you do as you're the one who already admitted this more than enough times and you're the one who came to a Christian forum to do so. So who's the one who has "peace", surely isn't you.

    You need to get your priorities right and stop wasting your time. You're fighting God, not me nor other Christians. If you didn't have angst about your belief you wouldn't be wasting your time here.

    There is more evidence for the validity of the Bible and Jesus than anything else but you're anxiously denying it. All the millions of Christians who truly follow Jesus are not stupid delusional people, and yes I'm referring to born again Christians.

    You cannot deny any of the following:
    - miracles Christians encounter
    - what happened 2014 years ago that the globe started an official calendar?
    - thousands of artifacts
    - hundreds of fulfilled prophecies
    - no religion has a savior except Christianity

    Why fight it or deny it? It isn't appealing to you that Jesus died to pay for your sins, a free gift?
  17. If you are happy believing in the literal truth of the Biblical and the gospels in particular that is fine. However, there is nothing to substantiate any of the less than credible stories attributed to Jesus, which were written many years after he died. It could well be that the gospel stories were either untrue or highly exaggerated. The authors could well have used the so called prophesies for their own ends . Even though the gospels talk Jesus up, it is clear to me he was very human, and as flawed as the rest of us. If quoted correctly, he said some sensible things, but he also said and did things with which I would take issue. As for dying to save us, hmmmmmmmm! I doubt that very much indeed, I suspect that was the spin put on his tragic death. Surely to goodness an omnipotent deity could have thought of a less nasty way of 'saving humanity, if we need saving, which I doubt.

    I doubt the so called 'miracles' some people claim to experience , which are often exaggerated anyway, are anymore than natural unexpected healing, nothing to do with any 'supernatural' occurrence. I probably know more about so called 'miracles' than most people. Our previous property had a 'miracle' field where people claimed to have experienced miracles of healing. Even this old heathen was cured of an unpleasant frozen shoulder. I think my mind responded to the pleasant vibes and my body's own healing systems kicked in!

    I am not sure when the calendar was sorted out, but of course no one is exactly sure what year Jesus was supposed to have actually died, there is quite a lot of dispute about it.

    What artefacts?

    I don't think the idea of a saviour is a big deal!
  18. Why are you here then? Probably the fifth time I've asked you.
  19. I feel the need to challenge the 'born again' dogma, having it abusively rammed down my throat as a kid. As I have said to you if you prefer me to remove myself from the forum, I will.
  20. JJ50,
    I don't know if you're responding to me, another, or just making general comments to all. I bring this up because it helps maintain some continuity in the conversation to know who you're talking to. Just put a @ sign with the name or just the name of who you're corresponding with or whom you're directing your post to. It really would be helpful.

    I fully understand opinions. We all have one. Yet along with these opinions are thoughts that drive them, or should I say perceived meanings of what we're being opinionated about. For instance: When you mention "born agains". What precisely do you mean by that? What is your understanding of that term? Since you've read the bible, associated references would be great, but not necessary in defining your understanding of this. The reason for this is that concepts when undefined can lead to misunderstandings and clarity is necessary to hopefully prevent arguments from differing points of view. It would be like talking about "fruit". You could be thinking apples, and I could be thinking oranges. Each of us would be right in our descriptions but wrong in the assumptions we make about the others point of view.

    Also, I'm curious if you took a look at the link I provided and maybe also looked at the YouTube video as well.

    In regards to the differing interpretations as seen by the numerous sects, cults etc. of Christianity, I completely agree! My mother while I was growing up had me go to almost every western denomination there was at the time :( Yet I also understand now, that she did this out of love, which as I stated in my other post can be also be misguided when man is the initiator. I've studied with some rather questionable ones, like Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Scientist, and some more established ones, Catholicism, Pentecostal, Lutheran....I've probably left out one or two but you get the scope of my....hummm...what some would call indoctrination. LOL However, now I really appreciate her attempts, because without them, I might not have been exposed to such a variety of doctrines by which to grow in His Word by. Be that as it may, Christianity has only one foundation, and that is Jesus Christ. Others may decide to call themselves Christians and not hold Christ Jesus as their foundation, and introduce things that are not Biblical, which sadly would be apostasy, but as you have the choice to either accept or deny, so do they in what they choose to believe is truth. There’s a saying here in America. It all comes out in the wash. Meaning in regards to Christianity, when you’ve breathed you last in this life you’ll find out one way or the other the truth of it.

    As far as fact, it’s all a matter of how you’ve defined the term to satisfy what you’ve chosen to believe. Just stating there is no supporting evidence without identifying what exactly is not supported is a general comment which can be done for any topic or subject under the sun :) If my reply to what you stated is “yes there is”, how does that answer anything? If honest inquiry is what you seek, then ask away. Responding in generalities and expecting me to read your mind for the specifics is an ability I sadly do not have :)
    As always, With the Love of Jesus Christ.

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