God’s ways are not our ways - Don’t read into the Bible your own desires and sensibilities!

[Victor Van Heerden]

God’s ways are not our ways - Don’t read into the Bible your own desires and sensibilities! Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

Often in our eagerness to stand in and protect God from a perceived slight on His divine character by non Christians we can sometimes read into the debate our own desires. For instance: "What kind of God will invent and create the largest torture chamber in the universe called hell, to incinerate for eternity, billions of fallen angels, their evil leader and billions of unbelievers?" Or " Was God wrong to demand genocide or not when he commanded the Israelite to totally annihilate their enemies, men, woman, children and even animals"? Or "Did God demand human sacrifice or not? Did God approve of slavery, polygamy or not, homosexuality, abortion, and other social issues etc"?

Christians are often quick to come to God’s rescue to find counter-verses to argue that God shares our modern sensibilities on these matters. This is understandable because no believer would want to be on the wrong side of moral issues. But let God and the Bible speak for itself. There are sixty six books of the Bible coming from many Middle Eastern authors who lived thousands of years ago and where from different primitive cultures and with different ideas of God to our modern western ideas.

We cannot presuppose God or His Word, because after all His is God and the Bible is His Word. He is sovereign and in charge. He has not fallen off His throne and made someone else in charge. We need to remember who is the boss so to speak and never forget that God is in charge and that we are not empowered to judge him - whether the problem is ambiguity or contradictions in the Bible or evil in the world, especially when we can’t even understand the situation enough to convict him.

Bottom line – we are His Creation and His children, who are we to say anything to the potter or our Father when we are the clay. “But now, O Lord, You are our Father; we are the clay, and You our potter; and all we are the work of Your hand.” (Isaiah 64:8)

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

KingJ hello!

 

[KingJ]

God’s ways are not our ways - Don’t read into the Bible your own desires and sensibilities! Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

1 Cor 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

A Christian can grasp God. A good person can come close. Just read Gen 18 and notice Abraham trying to grasp God.

Often in our eagerness to stand in and protect God from a perceived slight on His divine character by non Christians we can sometimes read into the debate our own desires. For instance: "What kind of God will invent and create the largest torture chamber in the universe called hell, to incinerate for eternity, billions of fallen angels, their evil leader and billions of unbelievers?" Or " Was God wrong to demand genocide or not when he commanded the Israelite to totally annihilate their enemies, men, woman, children and even animals"? Or "Did God demand human sacrifice or not? Did God approve of slavery, polygamy or not, homosexuality, abortion, and other social issues etc"?

A Christian is biased. No argument there. I am over eager to defend God. I love Him. I know Him. He talks to me. I believe I better grasp Him then most. But all this aside, it is truly beyond me how anyone reading scripture plainly with no bias, can still not come to the same conclusions I do.

You say God invented a torture chamber as the only scripture you use to grasp hell are those mentioning ''fire, brimstone and torment''.

Imagine you were a tour guide to earth who only cherry picked the verses God spoke to Adam and Eve in Gen 3. Gen 3:16 I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you and Gen 3:17 Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.

If you interpret scripture on earth as you do those on hell you will say something like this: ''Ladies, you will suffer terribly and be slaves of men. Men, you will suffer terribly. Sweat and labor. Eat from a cursed ground''. Ignoring scripture where Jesus says ''men love your wives as Christ loves the church''. Ignoring that God is good Psalm 136:1. He gives the ability to build muscles. Brains to invent pain killers. Nice beaches. Nice holiday destinations. Earth is actually an amazing place even in 'death'.

Now all you need to consider is two verses. 1. 1 James 1:5 'The message we have heard from the beginning is that God is light with no darkness in Him at all' and 2. James 5:44 'Love your enemies'. When we imply hell is a place of torture like Dante's inferno or even on par with what Russians envisioned doing to Germans. The reason they did not sign the Geneva convention. It is all darkness. God has NO darkness. You and I HAVE darkness. That is why it is ironically human discernment teaching a torturous hell. The only verse I have found that speaks to why people will be in torment is in Luke 13:28 ''They weep and gnash their teeth because they look up and see that they are cast out''.

Then, ''God was wrong to destroy Canaanites''. Hilarious. Have you ever done a study on the Amalekites? They were ''SO'' wicked to the Hebrews and God. Every good person on this planet that reads of their wickedness will agree with God's decision. It must also be noted that God withheld His destruction on Canaanites until their sin was 'full measure''. Example, Gen 15:16

 

[KingJ]

We cannot presuppose God or His Word, because after all His is God and the Bible is His Word. He is sovereign and in charge. He has not fallen off His throne and made someone else in charge. We need to remember who is the boss so to speak and never forget that God is in charge and that we are not empowered to judge him - whether the problem is ambiguity or contradictions in the Bible or evil in the world, especially when we can’t even understand the situation enough to convict him.

Bottom line – we are His Creation and His children, who are we to say anything to the potter or our Father when we are the clay. “But now, O Lord, You are our Father; we are the clay, and You our potter; and all we are the work of Your hand.” (Isaiah 64:8)

God has put so much effort into revealing His character and nature to us in His word. He has not given us a rule book. He has given us a book in where He reveals who He is to us. It is crystal clear given this and our working brains that He want us to judge and discern Him. He wants us to agree with Him. He wants us to choose Him.

We are His children and we are referred to as His Bride. The Bride of Christ 2 Cor 11:12, Eph 5:27, Rev 19:7.

If we teach we must simply serve and obey God because He is the ''guy'' in charge. I can guarantee you will not be in heaven Matt 7:22. The only way to fulfill a verse like Matt 16:24 is if you are completely in agreement and in love with God. There is simply no faking Christianity.

Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know this love that surpasses knowledge that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Abraham trying to grasp God

Abraham a good man. Nope - he was prepared to sacrifice his son. Think about that for a while!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

You say God invented a torture chamber

Nope - not me. THE BIBLE says so. “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (from the Gospel of Matthew, my emphasis) It's important to note that hell was not created for humans. Nevertheless, it will be utilised for segregating those humans who have decided that they do not want to be with God. Although why any one would not want to be with God in heaven beats me considering the alternative which is too ghastly to contemplate. Tortured in an eternal fire for ever. Nope that Gospel is not preached much today because of some Christians sensibilities thinking that God could not allow that to happen. But He does. And he will. Look at the WW flood of Noah, Sodom and Gomorrah , the coming wiping out of a third of humans and living creatures on earth etc. A third of the human race was killed by those three plagues: the fire, the smoke, and the sulphur coming out of the horses' mouths. ... Revelation 9:15 So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. ... and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their .. We are talking billions of people.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

God has put so much effort into revealing His character and nature to us in His word. He has not given us a rule book. He has given us a book in where He reveals who He is to us. It is crystal clear given this and our working brains that He want us to judge and discern Him. He wants us to agree with Him. He wants us to choose Him.

We are His children and we are referred to as His Bride. The Bride of Christ 2 Cor 11:12, Eph 5:27, Rev 19:7.

If we teach we must simply serve and obey God because He is the ''guy'' in charge. I can guarantee you will not be in heaven Matt 7:22. The only way to fulfill a verse like Matt 16:24 is if you are completely in agreement and in love with God. There is simply no faking Christianity.

Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know this love that surpasses knowledge that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good.

Yep we hear you - but you are forgetting something. The elephant in the room. We see through a glass darkly. We don,t know as much as we think we do. Do we? Phil 3 " Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus. 15 All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well.…"


1 Corinthians Chap 13 verse 12: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

We can never know the FULL picture!!! Its like looking at a passing carnival parade from the other side of the solid fence by looking through a key hole. We cannot get the whole parade. Maybe you see an elephant or a lion than you will get a fright. Maybe you see dancing ballerinas and be blessed. You get my drift?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

If we teach we must simply serve and obey God because He is the ''guy'' in charge.

He is in charge. Or do you think he is not? If he just loved us and was not in charge it would mean nothing - like a princess being loved by the doorman instead of the prince. The apostle Paul persuaded men to follow Jesus because of the terror of the LORD. Not the love of the LORD. I have told you this before but never mind i will quote the verse again 2Cor 5:11 "Therefore knowing the terror (fear) of the Lord, we persuade men." my brackets.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Then, ''God was wrong to destroy Canaanites''. Hilarious. Have you ever done a study on the Amalekites? They were ''SO'' wicked to the Hebrews and God. Every good person on this planet that reads of their wickedness will agree with God's decision. It must also be noted that God withheld His destruction on Canaanites until their sin was 'full measure''. Example, Gen 15:16

You can justify the killing of whole masses of people but the reason wither good or bad or deserved is not the point. The point is you must fear God or he will take you out. Do you get it now?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

The only verse I have found that speaks to why people will be in torment is in Luke 13:28 ''They weep and gnash their teeth because they look up and see that they are cast out''.

Nope - free Bible study coming up - nope joking only a few verses for your perusal.

Revelation 20:10 “ And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”


Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Luke 16:23 “ "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.”


Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


Revelation 18:7 “ "To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, 'I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.' Probably the verse that inspired Dante’s depiction of Biblical Hell – Notice “ To the degree …”

Matthew 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.


Matthew 18:9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Matthew 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 " dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

2 Peter 2:4 " For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

Matthew 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.

[/BIBLE]

 

[KingJ]

Abraham a good man. Nope - he was prepared to sacrifice his son. Think about that for a while!!!!!!!!!!

Did you not read Gen 18? God would not have chosen a wicked man.

Abraham's faith was in God. He believed God was good and had one hell of a reason for asking what He did. This is why he is a role model of faith in God.

 

[KingJ]

Nope - not me. THE BIBLE says so. “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (from the Gospel of Matthew, my emphasis) It's important to note that hell was not created for humans.

Now you believe God is not omniscient? He never knew humans would go there? Implying hell is a terrible place for humans as it was created for angels is just reaching and cherry picking God's characters to incriminate Him. Hardly a fair representation.

Nevertheless, it will be utilised for segregating those humans who have decided that they do not want to be with God. Although why any one would not want to be with God in heaven beats me considering the alternative which is too ghastly to contemplate. Tortured in an eternal fire for ever. Nope that Gospel is not preached much today because of some Christians sensibilities thinking that God could not allow that to happen. But He does. And he will. Look at the WW flood of Noah, Sodom and Gomorrah , the coming wiping out of a third of humans and living creatures on earth etc. A third of the human race was killed by those three plagues: the fire, the smoke, and the sulphur coming out of the horses' mouths. ... Revelation 9:15 So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. ... and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their .. We are talking billions of people.

Plagues have a purpose. In the tribulation it is God's last attempt to get people to repent. Please read post 70 here Is Hell just separation from God or a place of horrendous eternal punishment as the Bible states? and post 137 and post 139 here Is Hell just separation from God or a place of horrendous eternal punishment as the Bible states?.
and post 89 here Is Hell just separation from God or a place of horrendous eternal punishment as the Bible states?.

As to why people don't want to be with God please meditate on John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[KingJ]

Yep we hear you - but you are forgetting something. The elephant in the room. We see through a glass darkly. We don,t know as much as we think we do. Do we? Phil 3 " Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus. 15 All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well.…"


1 Corinthians Chap 13 verse 12: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

We can never know the FULL picture!!! Its like looking at a passing carnival parade from the other side of the solid fence by looking through a key hole. We cannot get the whole parade. Maybe you see an elephant or a lion than you will get a fright. Maybe you see dancing ballerinas and be blessed. You get my drift?

Straw. The fact is that we can all sufficiently grasp Him by reading His word. God does not change. What is written in scripture is written in scripture. He approves of telling us to love our enemies James 5:44. He defines Himself as love 1 John 4:8. He uses human words to explain truths about Himself to us. He has given us an intelligence level able to read and comprehend these truths.

It is wicked to teach that God has a different code of ethics in heaven. God is not a human that He should lie Numb 23:19. God does not change James 1:17. Jesus does not change Heb 13:8.

To accept God is as simple as reading about those things He hates and agreeing with Him. Making an effort to stop doing them. Repenting if we do. When we do, we are a bride after His heart. Which is exactly what the purpose of '''it all'' is all about. Prov 6:16-19 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

 

[KingJ]

He is in charge. Or do you think he is not? If he just loved us and was not in charge it would mean nothing - like a princess being loved by the doorman instead of the prince.

We can be glad a good God is in charge.

The apostle Paul persuaded men to follow Jesus because of the terror of the LORD. Not the love of the LORD. I have told you this before but never mind i will quote the verse again 2Cor 5:11 "Therefore knowing the terror (fear) of the Lord, we persuade men." my brackets.

You have to read that verse properly. Paul says '''knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men''. Paul is talking to us Christians. We know the terror of the Lord. We know what life without God will be like. We know a judgement day is coming when the wicked will be cast into hell for eternity. We know that God will be 'absolute' in His decision. This should prompt us to share this reality for the wicked with the wicked. The message is not '''come to my God because He is terrifying and will punish you for eternity if you don't''. It is '''My God hates what is wicked and has made a home for the wicked separate from heaven, where He is, for all eternity''.

A Christian knows that God is good Eph 3:18. A Christian knows the terror of living an eternity away from such a good God.

Meditate on Luke 13:28. They weep and gnash their teeth because they look up and see they are cast out.Why would the wicked who want nothing to do with God weep when looking up? Why if God is wicked, will those who are not with Him, look up and weep? Surely they should rejoice? Don't change the context to a fire burning their bums. The context is they look up and weep. Why? It can only be that they grasp the TERROR of separation from a good God. From good people. Everyone wants to be around people that repent. Nobody wants to be around people that cannot and never will desire to repent.

 

[KingJ]

Nope - free Bible study coming up - nope joking only a few verses for your perusal.

Revelation 20:10 “ And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”


Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Luke 16:23 “ "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.”


Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

I don't think you read my line properly. I said ''why are they in torment''. These scriptures explain nothing. Just more figurative fire. The wicked on earth right now have no rest. Their conscience bugs them. They are already on fire of sort. Yet they have many other things to do that provide them with entertainment and joy of sort. We need to grasp that God speaks from His perspective. Look closely at His language and choice of words.

 

[KingJ]

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 " dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Yes and we all know His retribution. Rom 2:6 Each will be rewarded according to their deeds Paul tells us to judge matters properly and not go before courts as we should be able to better discern fair punishments. We will judge angels. 1 Cor 6:1-8. We can hence expect God to (who's mind of Christ we have enabling us to better discern) to judge perhaps even better then us. Now the unsaved pioneered the Geneva convention for their enemies. A Christian should do better. God should do better. Paul will NOT be impressed with any Christians judging matters worse then the unsaved.

Failing at judgement and not providing fair sentencing is the story of the unsaved and wicked. Not God and Christians. Let's not co-mingle insanity and wickedness with God and Christianity.

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.[/BIBLE]

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

2 Peter 2:4 " For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

Matthew 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.

I find it interesting that James 3:6 says the tongue is a fire. Words that hurt us. Figurative fire. You don't find that interesting?

The only verse you have provided that actually hints at why there will be torment is 2 Pet 2:4 ''Pits of darkness''. But this too, like fire, can be figurative. The bible says that when the wicked do evil, it is loving darkness John 3:19. Darkness hence speaks to a place where evil takes place. Not ''God switches the lights off and everyone bumps there noses and weep and gnash their teeth as a result''.

 

[KingJ]

You can justify the killing of whole masses of people but the reason wither good or bad or deserved is not the point. The point is you must fear God or he will take you out. Do you get it now?

That is just completely false. Before every 'wrath of God' there are verses speaking to their evil. Their rebellion. Their wickedness being 'full measure'. We must ignore this? I think not. God is not a tyrant.

God is patient, not wanting any to be '''taken out''', 2 Pet 3:9.

His wrath is only on the workers if iniquity. The wicked will not go unpunished Prov 11:21.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

God is not a tyrant.

Of course not in the true sense of the word which is an individual who arrogates to himself the royal authority without having a right to it. This is how the Greeks understood the word 'tyrant': they applied it indifferently to good and bad princes whose authority was not legitimate. A usurper; one who gains power and rules extra-legally, distinguished from kings elevated by election or succession. He normally rules in an oppressive almost cruel manner to maintain his usurped position. Satan would be a tyrant.

However how does God rule? He is God. He has not overthrown another god and usurped authority and therefore needs to declare some kind of Marshall law and rule in a police like state with oppression. Nope God has absolute authority. He created the mighty, immense, vast universe. Of trillions of solar systems like ours. He rules not only on earth but everywhere in a forty billion light years across creation. He has gazillions of orders and angels to command in order to run the universe. Yet he has time to count the trillions hairs on billions of his children heads. He is able to listen to and answer if he wants, billions if not trillions of daily prayers. Mostly mundane like, help at the exam, or in the game, or to find a parking bay, or to heal my head ache etc. No tyrant does that.

God nevertheless is God. And His Kingdom is a KINGDOM. Not a democracy!!! Where God asks the opinion of everybody. Nope. It His way and His way only. God is an autocratic ruler. ( An autocracy is a system of government in which supreme power is concentrated in the hands of one person, whose decisions are subject to neither external legal restraints nor regularized mechanisms of popular control. Absolute monarchies and dictatorships are the main modern-day forms of autocracy.)

God knows what is best for you so we have NO choice BUT to fall in line or go to HELL. So you would not be out of bounds if you called God a King or Dictator. Tyrant nope. King yes. Dictator yes. The Kingdom of God on earth and in heaven is a Theocracy which is a form of government in which God is the source from which all authority derives.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

.

Workers of inequity are whoever God feels are workers of iniquity. Anyone out of his will and authority is a worker of iniquity. Anyone not under his jurisdiction and part of his family is a worker of iniquity. If a bad, cruel, sinful, tyrant fits in with Gods plan he is not a worker of inequity but a tool in Gods hands. Like for instance a Donald Trump type. Or a Cyrus the Great type, the great Persian monarch. Workers of inequity are relative to what God feels they are. Buddhists types who never hurt any living creatures and spend their whole life in innocent peaceful uplifting meditation and prayer are workers of iniquity. Why - because they are outside the Kingdom of God.

"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:14

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Figurative fire. You don't find that interesting?

What is interesting is that if it was a figurative fire which in this instance it might be, but in others it is not and was written to be taken literally like most of the Bible is then why if it was not real fire would anyone be afraid of God or hell?. " The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:.." prov 9

2 Corinthians 7:1 7 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.