Give the government what is the government's

[rawprawn]

Jesus told us to give to the Government what is the Government's and to God that which is God's. I think this is profound. I think everything we own, our stuff, all belongs to this world, to the government of the day. I think Jesus is saying "do not hold onto physical things". "If someone wants your coat, give them your shirt as well". Have you considered how difficult it is to follow this command by Jesus? If someone breaks into your house and steals your new laptop, just let it go, do not try to find them or it. I think Jesus is really saying, "Let Stuff Go".
Then there is the other half of the statement, "Give to God what is God's". Have you thought about the fact that God does not really demand anything? The Tax department take from me every day, whenever I purchase anything. What does God want? I think what God wants, what Jesus wants, even demands, is that we "let stuff go". What do you think?

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Jesus told us to give to the Government what is the Government's and to God that which is God's. I think this is profound. I think everything we own, our stuff, all belongs to this world, to the government of the day. I think Jesus is saying "do not hold onto physical things". "If someone wants your coat, give them your shirt as well". Have you considered how difficult it is to follow this command by Jesus? If someone breaks into your house and steals your new laptop, just let it go, do not try to find them or it. I think Jesus is really saying, "Let Stuff Go".
Then there is the other half of the statement, "Give to God what is God's". Have you thought about the fact that God does not really demand anything? The Tax department take from me every day, whenever I purchase anything. What does God want? I think what God wants, what Jesus wants, even demands, is that we "let stuff go". What do you think?

Proverbs 21:20-21
20 There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise; but a foolish man spendeth it up.
21 He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.

We are lucky in America, our constitution says the government is limited in power. What is ours, is ours.

We are responsible for the care of our family and must provide for them, young and old. We also have the right to bear or own guns so the government behaves.

 

[rawprawn]

Matthew 22
Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? 18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why make ye trial of me, ye hypocrites?
19 Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a denarius.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Eric where does the American dollar come from? Who's face is on it? I think it is George Washington? On the other side it is a pyramid with the all seeing eye I think. Jesus is saying "give to George everything that is Georges". Or am I mistaken? Believe me I'm no saint and I find the Laws set down by Jesus impossible to keep. Jesus did say that the road to the Kingdom is very narrow and few will follow it. He is saying that we must be prepared to give up everything, even our family to follow Him, and He means it literally. We cannot hold onto anything on this planet. Baring arms, how does that work with 'turn the other cheek"? Jesus was serious when He said that. He said "take up your cross and follow me", be prepared to die in other words. Islam, on the other hand, will gladly approve of your arms baring. We have to choose, all of us, and Jesus' is the hardest road to tread by a country mile.

 

[Rockerduck]

To disagree some; our government is "of the people, by the people". Just read our constitution. So you are saying give to the people what is the peoples.

 

[NoHype]

Jesus told us to give to the Government what is the Government's and to God that which is God's. I think this is profound. I think everything we own, our stuff, all belongs to this world, to the government of the day. I think Jesus is saying "do not hold onto physical things". "If someone wants your coat, give them your shirt as well". Have you considered how difficult it is to follow this command by Jesus? If someone breaks into your house and steals your new laptop, just let it go, do not try to find them or it. I think Jesus is really saying, "Let Stuff Go".
Then there is the other half of the statement, "Give to God what is God's". Have you thought about the fact that God does not really demand anything? The Tax department take from me every day, whenever I purchase anything. What does God want? I think what God wants, what Jesus wants, even demands, is that we "let stuff go". What do you think?

So then you align with Communist Socialism? That's not what God's Word teaches at all concerning property rights.


Matt 22:17-21
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye Me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
(KJV)

The subject there is "tribute money", i.e., taxes. The property that God has given His people was not included in that "tribute money" (taxes). Jesus was showing us that Benjamin Franklin's saying that two things in this life are always assured, "death and taxes".

Here is the Christian Doctrine dealing with the matter of giving and personal property rights:

2 Cor 8:9-15
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich.
10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.
(KJV)

If a poorer brother, or even a government official, comes into my house and likes a Rembrandt painting I have on the wall which I paid for through my earnings, I'm supposed to just give it to them if they ask? No. The idea of Paul's equality here is about the necessities of life that others may not have, helping the poor, which we do. It certainly is NOT about the government coming into our homes like Communists do and seize our property or violate our God-given property rights.

 

[rawprawn]

I believe that if we hang onto the things that belong to this world we cannot enter the Kingdom of God. I don't try to white wash this, it is what it is. The parable of the rich young ruler tells it clearly. Hanging onto stuff causes grief and takes a person's mind off the things that really matter. A Rembrandt has no value in the Kingdom of God. This is what gets me. I don't think people, "Christians" really hear what Jesus is saying about the Kingdom of God. The road to the Kingdom is very hard, virtually impossible for a human being. For God all things are possible. I understand that the tribute money is tax, and where I live in Australia we are taxed to about 25% of our income (when I calculate all of the taxes and levies we pay). Jesus said, "Don't worry about it". What a great way to live. I wish I could completely adopt the mindset of letting everything go, it is a stress free way to live.

 

[farout]

Jesus told us to give to the Government what is the Government's and to God that which is God's. I think this is profound. I think everything we own, our stuff, all belongs to this world, to the government of the day. I think Jesus is saying "do not hold onto physical things". "If someone wants your coat, give them your shirt as well". Have you considered how difficult it is to follow this command by Jesus? If someone breaks into your house and steals your new laptop, just let it go, do not try to find them or it. I think Jesus is really saying, "Let Stuff Go".
Then there is the other half of the statement, "Give to God what is God's". Have you thought about the fact that God does not really demand anything? The Tax department take from me every day, whenever I purchase anything. What does God want? I think what God wants, what Jesus wants, even demands, is that we "let stuff go". What do you think?

I rad your profile I hope you find you faith back as it once was. I don't agree that everything we own belongs to this world. It belongs to Jesus, He has it on loan to us. Satan is the ruler of this world and he has won so many over to his side. We are seeing the days turn against God more and more every day. Our President, Mr. Obama has done more to turn people away from biblical standards and teachings tan any one person my lifetime. Other countries are going in the same direction. Countries who one were solidly Christian, now are haters of God and are fully anti Christ. How long before Christ comes back, could it be hundred's of years? I have no idea but suffering is here now and will get far worse.

 

[clark thompson]

Yes we should give what we owe to the government and also what we owe to others but first we need trust God with our money by praying about how we spend it and He will take care of things.

 

[lawrenceb]

Scripture says it is not lawful for governments to impose a tax upon the servants of God (Ezra 7:24). Thus, it is not lawful to impose tax upon the servants of Christ. But those servants must be true servants. If one seeks to make merchandise of his creation, they will be taxed. The slothful are under taxes (Proverbs 12:24). We also see that the Levites were not taxed or conscripted for military purpose (Numbers 1:45-54; Numbers 18. Note especially verse 24). The tithe was to go to the Levites (Deuteronomy 14:27-29; Joshua 21). God is sovereign; he cannot be taxed.

Abram paid tithes of all to Melchizdek, King of Salem, and refused the spoils he was offered from the King of Sodom. It is clear that it was the result of a solemn oath that Abram had made to God. "Abram said to the King of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, that I will not take anything that is thine, lest thou shouldst say, I have made Abram rich" (Genesis 14:22,23).

Abram would not accept the commercial benefits of the heathen, because he knew the resulting duties attached thereto. Instead, he chose to honor the Lord. The people of God are not to finance the government (through heathen taxation); nor is the government to finance the people of God (through benefits such as social security, etc.). A State-financed church is a State-controlled church. He who accepts a benefit from the State accepts the sovereignty and authority of the State, and thus is subject to and will serve the State.

Jesus himself was accused of forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar at his trial: "And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate. And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King." (Luke 23:1-2). Notice, these were not false witnesses, because every time a false witness accused Jesus, the Scripture tells us it was a false witness (Mark 14:57-59). Where did Jesus forbid to pay taxes to Caesar?

In Mark 12:13-17, Jesus was asked if it was lawful to give taxes to Caesar or not. A silver coin, with Caesar's inscription on it, was shown to Christ. In this example, the Lord's answer requires everyone to make the determination as to what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God;

Mark 12:17 "...Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's..."

Who did this silver coin belong to? Since the Scripture says, "The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts" (Haggai chapter 2 verse 8), that means that the silver coin shown to Jesus belonged to God. However, those who live, move, and have their being in the image of Caesar, as the disciples of the Pharisees did, will believe this coin belongs to Caesar instead. We are not to be deluded by the image of Caesar, but built-up in the image of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:7; 15:49, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Colossians 3:10).

There's only one instance where Jesus "paid" a tax. Matthew 17:24-27. Let's break this passage down.

Verse 24: The tax collector asked Simon Peter if Jesus paid taxes.
Verse 25: Peter said, "yes". But "Jesus prevented" Peter from paying the tax. Why did Jesus prevent Peter from paying taxes?
Verse 26: Jesus said "Then are the children free" from paying taxes. This is why, because we (the children of God) are now free. But we must not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness.
Verse 27: However, to avoid "offending" this tax collector (since, as was the habit of Peter, he opened his mouth too soon without really thinking and obligated Jesus by his statement that Jesus did pay taxes), Jesus told Peter to cast a hook into the sea, and catch a fish, and take out money from its mouth and pay it.

Even though Jesus paid this tax, it was to avoid "offending" him, and because Peter rashly agreed to pay it, not because we are bound to pay taxes by Law. Jesus made the point to stress that the children are free from taxes. But notice, Simon Peter and Jesus did not give him any of their own money, but that which came from the fish! It is interesting to note that Peter was a commercial fisherman (a fisher of fish) before being called to be an apostle of Christ (a fisher of men), and when Peter opened his mouth before thinking (as he often did), Christ basically chastised him by having Peter return to his old life to pay his debt! He had to be a fisher of fish to catch that fish with the coin in its mouth. When you join yourself to the world, and make obligations to the world, you must become part of the world again to meet those obligations.

Additionally, Jesus could not have fulfilled prophesy if he was to go to prison, which might have happened if he didn't pay that tax after Peter "volunteered" for him. It was not his time to go to prison yet. Likewise, Jesus could have called twelve legions of angels to his rescue, but because the Scriptures would not have been fulfilled if he did, he refrained from doing that act (Matthew 26:53-54). Jesus taught that we are free from paying taxes if we are children of the king (Matthew 17:24-26), meaning the children of King Jesus (Acts 17:7, 1 Timothy 1:17).

So, back to Simon Peter and the coin-in-the-fish's-mouth event. This account is so misinterpreted as to be rendered meaningless. I'll elaborate on that passage a little more. Before becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ, Simon had a persona (remember that God is not a respector of persons i.e. one's status). Formerly, Simon's persona in Caesar's world was that of a commercial fisherman. Simon was a fisher of fish. But when Simon became a disciple, he left that at the door and walked right out of Caesar's world. As a disciple, he became a fisher of men.

Now when the tax men came to him and the Lord, the tax men were no dummies; they went for the soft target -- they conversed with Simon and not with Jesus. Regarding Jesus paying any tax, Simon gave the tax men a one-word reply i.e. "Yes." At that moment, a CONTRACT was entered into. Thus the issue was not whether such a tax was due, as Simon had spoke the duty into existence. The issue, for the tax men, was 'When are you going to pay us?' And the issue, for Jesus, was 'Simon, you goofed up.'

So Jesus PREVENTED Simon from immediately paying the tax. Why? Why didn't Jesus simply whip out a coin, or have Simon do it, and pay the men right then and there? Well, this is the whole point of the passage -- as it's a LESSON for all of us: When Simon (erroneously) told the tax men that Jesus does pay taxes, Simon was at that point legally obligated to pay it. By his own tongue, Simon brought himself (and Jesus) into the tax men's jurisdiction when, in truth, Simon, as a genuine child of God, had no duty to pay them anything.

So Jesus sent Simon BACK into Simon's former COMMERCIAL world with which Simon had been all too familiar. It was a REBUKE ala 'Get your behind back into the commercial world from which you came, you fisher of fish. There'll be a coin in the first fish's mouth; pay your incurred obligation with it.'

To be blunt about it, every bondman of Christ is presumed by Caesar to be acting in the mode and character of a pagan (i.e., in commerce) because he has borne or given no evidence to the contrary. Is this not bearing false witness? In other words, when a man professes to be a follower and ambassador of Christ and yet acts in a manner that tells the whole world that he is a pagan, then he is bearing false witness to the whole world.

 

[NoHype]

Scripture says it is not lawful for governments to impose a tax upon the servants of God (Ezra 7:24). Thus, it is not lawful to impose tax upon the servants of Christ.

That's not quite accurate. The tithe was a type of tax upon the children of Israel to do, it paid the priests and for the temple service, etc. And though those who stay in Christ Jesus now have the promise to be made priests and kings, that has not happened just yet, because that's for after Christ's return. So we are still endeared to pay taxes today for non-Church work or services.

Abram paid tithes of all to Melchizdek, King of Salem, and refused the spoils he was offered from the King of Sodom. It is clear that it was the result of a solemn oath that Abram had made to God. "Abram said to the King of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, that I will not take anything that is thine, lest thou shouldst say, I have made Abram rich" (Genesis 14:22,23).

Abram didn't take of the spoils he was offered because of the possibility that the king of Sodom would make the false claim that he made Abram rich. By Abram refusing he was giving God the glory of the victory over the defeated kings in that chapter. So it wasn't about some secret oath Abram made with God. And Abram allowed the men with him to take of their portion.

Abram would not accept the commercial benefits of the heathen, because he knew the resulting duties attached thereto. Instead, he chose to honor the Lord. The people of God are not to finance the government (through heathen taxation); nor is the government to finance the people of God (through benefits such as social security, etc.). A State-financed church is a State-controlled church. He who accepts a benefit from the State accepts the sovereignty and authority of the State, and thus is subject to and will serve the State.

Well, you're wrong about that. The tithes and alms giving also was to help the poor and elderly. That's what social security has replaced in modern society. The Church is still not required to pay taxes in the Christian nations. But I agree governments are not to burden the Church with wrongful laws attached to non-profit status that attempt to control the Church and its services. However, Jesus did warn us about the "hireling" (John 10). The hireling serves in the Church for money, so those are the ones most likely to petition governments for funds when they should not.

Jesus himself was accused of forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar at his trial: "And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate. And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King." (Luke 23:1-2). Notice, these were not false witnesses, because every time a false witness accused Jesus, the Scripture tells us it was a false witness (Mark 14:57-59). Where did Jesus forbid to pay taxes to Caesar?

The people that rose up then were urged on by the scribes and Pharisees who lied against Jesus. Jesus and His Apostles did pay tribute (tax) to Caesar:

Matt 17:27
27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for Me and thee.
(KJV)

Pretty much the rest of your post have these kind of problems within it.

 

[farout]

At tax time most try to find every way to pay the government as little as possible. Giving to God, many give nothing at all. Render to Ceaser what what is Ceasers. Cheat God everywhere you can, right?
As christians only a small (less han 10%) give anything at all) So many of us are geat talkers we love to post, but in reality we are just a bunch of hot air. We say we will pray for somone, but we know we won't. We act like we read the Bible, and know what it says, but few of us really read the Bible much.
I see some opinions on TJ that are so unbiblical, and if you point it out, others join in and agree with those who are so wrong.

Our President is so anti-christian morals, and ethics, yet we some "religious" people back up Mr. Obama. If a world war like WWll broke out today there are so many cowards we would give up with out a shot being fired. I am afraid being a christian means so little to most, and fighting for feedom means nothing to our pot smoking, homsexual nation, of weak lazy, anythig goes culture.

I have give far to much of my life for this county already. I have given far to little for my Lord Jesus, who as given me His all. I owe nothing more to a country that has turned against God and His Bible. I will pay only what is required of me, and nothing more! I gave my health for a ungreatful, ungodly people who dumped garbage at me after spending alot 8 months in a Naval Hosptal. All that for a country who praises a pervert football player at MU Missouri? The country I once thought I knew no longer is alive. When Mrs Obama praises a homosexual football player for coming out, and telling the worldhe is living like Roman 1, both of them are not on the side ofour Lord Jesus Christ. What a pittiful mess!

Chhristians, are you or real or just playing like one?

 

[lawrenceb]

Thanks, NoHype and farout, for your responses.

First, a reply to NoHype.

Where is the logic in jumping from this...

That's not quite accurate. The tithe was a type of tax upon the children of Israel to do, it paid the priests and for the temple service, etc. And though those who stay in Christ Jesus now have the promise to be made priests and kings, that has not happened just yet, because that's for after Christ's return.

...to this...

So we are still endeared to pay taxes today for non-Church work or services.

???

The only ones who might be “endeared to pay taxes today” for anything “non-Church” would be those who are serving two masters.

That’s the issue here, and that’s the issue with Jesus sending Simon back into his former commercial world as a commercial fisherman to satisfy his ignorantly incurred obligation to those “tax” men of the commercial world.

The most important thing to understand is that the term 'commercial activity' is a created term governed by the Law Merchant (lex mercatoria). Using the customs and usage's from that law is what determines whether you are in 'their' activity or not. The use of commercial instruments, such as a business license, profit and loss records, balance sheets, advertising, receipts, business cards, insurance policies, social security numbers, drivers license, commercial speech, extended credit, limited liability, free mail service, ownership, etc., makes you subject to the Uniform Commercial Code (a private copyrighted 'law' by the American Law Institute).

Buying, selling, or trading is not necessarily 'commercial activity' or contrary to Scripture. How, and for what purpose you transact, determines whether or not it is considered a 'commercial activity' and contrary to the Law of God. Creating a record, such as the giving or receiving of a receipt, constitutes commercial activity.

Calling yourself 'the owner' (which is a commercial term) constitutes commercial activity, for God is 'The Owner' of everything (Psalm 24:1, Isaiah 44:24, 2 Corinthians 5:18). Charging or paying interest through extended credit for such transactions constitutes commercial activity through 'suretyship' and is contrary to Scripture (Proverbs 6:1-2; 11:15; Romans 13:8, 2 Kings 18:23, 31). Advertising to the 'general public' (the secular world, atheists, and other infidels), to sell a product or your labor, constitutes commercial activity and is not favored in Scripture.

It simply has to do with venue and jurisdiction. Are you living the Law in accordance with the One True God of Scripture, or the god of Mercury (the god of commerce)? When operating within your community and with brethren, the use of receipts, records, advertising, profiteering for abundant gain, free government benefits, charging or paying interest, etc., is not necessary and therefore should not be used if you wish to remain non-commercial. All bondmen of Christ should be operating by word of mouth within their community and supporting one another (Romans 13:8).

The people that rose up then were urged on by the scribes and Pharisees who lied against Jesus. Jesus and His Apostles did pay tribute (tax) to Caesar:

No, they did not, nor were they required to. On this occasion, Jesus used Simon’s ignorance of the law to teach him the truth that the children of God are not subject to taxation.

And now, a reply to farout.

At tax time most try to find every way to pay the government as little as possible.

Why pay it anything? i.e. What have you done that would require you to “render unto” it anything?

Personally, I don’t owe it anything.

Render to Ceaser what what is Ceasers.

“...render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s...” (Mark 12:17 KJB). So what things of Caesar's are you parataking of that would require such a rendering unto him?

As christians only a small (less han 10%) give anything at all) So many of us are geat talkers we love to post, but in reality we are just a bunch of hot air. We say we will pray for somone, but we know we won't. We act like we read the Bible, and know what it says, but few of us really read the Bible much.

So sad and so true.

I see some opinions on TJ that are so unbiblical, and if you point it out, others join in and agree with those who are so wrong.

Misery loves company!

Our President is...

Your “President,” perhaps, but not mine!

Our President is so anti-christian morals, and ethics, yet we some "religious" people back up Mr. Obama. If a world war like WWll broke out today there are so many cowards we would give up with out a shot being fired. I am afraid being a christian means so little to most, and fighting for feedom means nothing to our pot smoking, homsexual nation, of weak lazy, anythig goes culture.

Yep. And “Christian” is just another mere label used by those OF the world to describe those NOT of the world, while “born again” is an ACTION.

I have give far to much of my life for this county already.

Indeed. We are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

I have given far to little for my Lord Jesus, who as given me His all.

Amen. Let us not be ignorant of Satan’s devices.

I owe nothing more to a country that has turned against God and His Bible.

Amen, spoken like a true child of God. Now it’s time to learn how to walk the talk, to walk free as that child.

I will pay only what is required of me, and nothing more!

<
The King tells us to come over to him, where his burden is easy and his yoke is light - as a true child of the King.

I gave my health for a ungreatful, ungodly people who dumped garbage at me after spending alot 8 months in a Naval Hosptal. All that for a country who praises a pervert football player at MU Missouri?

That was then; this is now. It is never too late to do the right thing. Let us learn what it means to be righteous, together.

The country I once thought I knew no longer is alive.

It never was; it is a corporation, by law, from the word corpse i.e. dead thing.

When Mrs Obama praises a homosexual football player for coming out, and telling the world he is living like Roman 1, both of them are not on the side ofour Lord Jesus Christ. What a pittiful mess!

Bitter for sweet, sweet for bitter. Evil for good, good for evil. Satan never sleeps.

Chhristians, are you or real or just playing like one?

Jesus came to set the captives free. What say ye about walking truly free?

 

[rawprawn]

Hey you guys. This conversation has gone way past my original thought. To me, Jesus is telling us that the things of this world, like money, all belong to Caesar. They are of no interest to those entering the Kingdom of God. So if the government require you to pay tax, just do it. That is why Jesus sent Peter to catch a fish, find a coin and pay the tax with it. He was showing that God provides all and that we need not worry about any material things. This world is all about money, wealth. I see Jesus saying right throughout the Gospels to "Let Go of everything". He even tells us to let go of the people we love. Letting go is forgiveness. .

 

[Hekuran]

Interesting thoughts rawprawn.I've done a bit of digging about this encounter between Jesus and his accusers. The original question - should we pay the tax or not - is intended to catch Jesus on the horns of a dilemma.
Jesus' ministry has been all about proclaiming the Kingdom of God, so if he concedes that people should pay taxes to Caesar, he runs the risk of discrediting his own message - it would be tantamount to admitting that Caesar has ultimate authority.
Had Jesus said "don't pay the tax", he would have been turned over to the Romans in a trice for incitement to overthrowing the empire.The inscription on the coin that Jesus asks for said "Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus" (That breaks the first of the ten commandments, and the image of Caesar breaks the second).
Jesus' response silently questions his accusers (How can you say you worship God alone when you carry this blasphemous filth around?) and turns the tables on them - under whose authority do you live? I've borrowed these thoughts from Tom Wright who writes about this very clearly and with great insight.
For sure the Bible teaches us to let go of material things. The Sermon on the Mount and the opening chapters of the book of Acts show this more strongly than the Caesar's coin incident.
Blessings!

 

[NoHype]

Thanks, NoHype and farout, for your responses.

First, a reply to NoHype.

Where is the logic in jumping from this...

...to this...

???

The only ones who might be “endeared to pay taxes today” for anything “non-Church” would be those who are serving two masters.

That’s the issue here, and that’s the issue with Jesus sending Simon back into his former commercial world as a commercial fisherman to satisfy his ignorantly incurred obligation to those “tax” men of the commercial world.

Jesus paid the tribute from the coin the fish had in its mouth, and He send to do it so as to not offend. I posted the Scripture evidence, you rejected that Scripture.

The closest thing the Christian Church today has to the old Levites receiving tithes of the people are the servants that work in a Church full time, making it their full time job. The U.S. Government tax laws call that a Non-Profit.

I personally don't agree with any worker in the Church being taxed by governments. But Jesus paying the tribute to Casaear is not about the Church paying taxes, it's about the 'individual' paying taxes.

Matt 17:24-27
24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, "Doth not your master pay tribute?"
25 He saith, "Yes." And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, "What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?"
26 Peter saith unto Him, "Of strangers." Jesus saith unto him, "Then are the children free.

The tax collectors came to Peter and asked him if Jesus does not pay the tribute. Peter said "Yes". Peter then goes into the house where Jesus asks him what he thinks, "... of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?" Peter says "Of strangers". "Then are the children free," Jesus says, but He then continues with the following command to Peter...

27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for Me and thee."
(KJV)

The Lesson? Want to offend and go to jail? Then refuse to pay your income tax. By giving the tax collectors that coin from the fish's mouth He was showing in this world, this is how it will be. But per His law only strangers were to pay taxes and not the children of the kingdom. Prior to 1933 in the U.S. there was no progressive income tax upon U.S. citizens. President Franklin D. Roosevelt became the real 'raiser of taxes' in the U.S. going against God's laws. The people failed to stop it then, as they have failed to stop it today. And it has gone so far that it will not be stopped until Christ returns. So why go to jail over it? There is no lawyer than can protect a U.S. citizen against it.

 

[lawrenceb]

Thanks, rawprawn and Kekuran and NoHype.

Hey you guys. This conversation has gone way past my original thought. To me, Jesus is telling us that the things of this world, like money, all belong to Caesar.

This is a very serious misunderstanding, and one that is believed by a majority. Rather, here’s what the word of God says about it:

For the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof. (1 Cor. 10:26, 28; also Psalm 50:12; 89:11 KJB).

The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts. (Haggai 2:8).

What “Jesus is telling us” is that it’s a question of authority; be aware, because there is a form of obedience which leads to death:

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (Romans 6:16).

Most people are eating, drinking, living in that death, and they don’t even know it.

Specifically, how are God’s “people destroyed for lack of knowledge” (Hosea 4:6)?

[The things of this world] are of no interest to those entering the Kingdom of God.

Indeed, that would be the ideal. So why is the majority still living in death? Why have those “things of the world” become the focus of ‘those who would enter the Kingdom of God’?

So if the government require you to pay tax, just do it.

“The government” would “require” your very life; indeed, the spirit empowering it would require your very soul! We must stop feeding that foul thing!

That is why Jesus sent Peter to catch a fish, find a coin and pay the tax with it. He was showing that God provides all and that we need not worry about any material things.

No, God was teaching Simon (and us) a lesson that when one makes obligations to the world (e.g. Simon rashly saying “yes” to the world’s agents), one must return to the world to meet those obligations. Formerly, Simon was a commercial fisherman, a fisher of fish, i.e., he was OF the world. He walked right out of that commercial world and into Christ’s kingdom to become a fisher of men. The two kingdoms are not compatible!

We must stop saying “yes” to the world’s agents, because those to whom we submit are those to whom we will render. No man can serve two masters. We must come out of her, my people, and touch not the unclean thing. Then we can begin to walk truly free, and not before. There’s your separation and sanctification.

This world is all about money, wealth. I see Jesus saying right throughout the Gospels to "Let Go of everything".

So why do we keeping ‘holding on’ to the foul thing? (Recall that Satan is the most subtle beast of the field, and that deception marks these times...)

Interesting thoughts rawprawn.I've done a bit of digging about this encounter between Jesus and his accusers. The original question - should we pay the tax or not - is intended to catch Jesus on the horns of a dilemma.
Jesus' ministry has been all about proclaiming the Kingdom of God, so if he concedes that people should pay taxes to Caesar, he runs the risk of discrediting his own message - it would be tantamount to admitting that Caesar has ultimate authority.

This is absolutely correct - the “Kingdom of God” versus the kingdom of this world. It’s a question of authority.

Had Jesus said "don't pay the tax", he would have been turned over to the Romans in a trice for incitement to overthrowing the empire.

Which empire? You see, those who “live, move, and have their being” in Christ know that the coin belongs to God and thus there is no tax due Caesar. However, those who “live, move, and have their being” in the image of Caesar (ala the superscription on the coin) will believe that Caesar “owns” the coin and thus will render unto Caesar.

The inscription on the coin that Jesus asks for said "Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus" (That breaks the first of the ten commandments, and the image of Caesar breaks the second).

Indeed! Great point! So what are supposed born again believers doing mucking around with such images of the world??? Why are we giving life to such dead things?

Jesus' response...

Jesus’ response requires each of us to make the determination about what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God.

Jesus’ response silently questions his accusers (How can you say you worship God alone when you carry this blasphemous filth around?) and turns the tables on them - under whose authority do you live?

Absolutely! Exactly! You got it!

I've borrowed these thoughts from Tom Wright who writes about this very clearly and with great insight.

I haven’t heard of the man, but all we need is scripture anyway.

For sure the Bible teaches us to let go of material things. The Sermon on the Mount and the opening chapters of the book of Acts show this more strongly than the Caesar's coin incident.

Giving life to the dead things of the world brings bondage.

I will illustrate with the example of a driver license.

Some people have reservations about not having a license. Some feel justified in getting a license if they use their vessel to exercise God's will. For example, someone may use their pick-up truck because they feel it's God's will that they plant trees. And if their vessel gets impounded and they get thrown in jail for driving without a license and tags, then they will not be able to continue doing God's will, because they will no longer have a vehicle to do that.

First of all, God does not require us to sin in one of his laws (entering into a covenant with the heathen, and being unequally yoked with them) in order to exercise his will. If it's his will we do something, and we feel we must break one of his laws in order to do his will, then we better ask ourselves, "Is it really his will I am doing, or my own?"

Secondly, let me ask you a question. Can mere man thwart God's will? Of course not. If he can, that would mean man is sovereign over God, and God is helpless. So, knowing man cannot thwart God's will, one should not worry that man will prevent you from exercising God's will! If you fear that you won't be able to continue doing God's will if you lose your vessel, then you are saying man is more powerful than God! If man does prevent you from doing what you thought was God's will, then maybe that's God's way of telling you it was not his will in the first place, and he may be directing you to a different calling.

Some people are not willing to lose "their" vessel for the Lord's sake, but scripture does tell us that we will be persecuted for standing in the truth (Matthew 5:10-12; 10:22; 24:9, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:17, John 15:20). We will be persecuted, but it's for his purposes. Besides, who is the one who has provided you with that vessel? Yourself or God? If you are living in the Truth, you know that God has. Therefore, what makes you think that He will not provide another vessel for you? It comes down to faith, or a lack of faith.

Remember what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:40, "And if any man (i.e. cops, attorneys, etc.) will sue thee at the law (i.e. arrested and brought before the judge for placing God's Will above man's will), and take away thy coat (i.e. car, land), let him have thy cloke also."

Why does Jesus tell us to let our possessions go? Because those who want "their" things back would be coveting! And coveting may prevent one from having eternal life! Look at this question that was asked to Jesus by a wealthy man:

Matthew 19:16, "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

Then Jesus repeated some of God's Commandments. The man said he had kept all of them. Then Jesus told the man he must be willing to give up his possessions also (verse 21).

Matthew 19:22, "But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

That man refused to let go of his possessions, and he left Jesus! He could not be part of the Kingdom if he was not willing to let go of his possessions! Why? Because Christ's kingdom is spiritual, not physical. God will supply our physical needs (Matthew 6:31-33, Luke 12:22-31, Philippians 4:19, Psalms 34:10). That man had no faith that God would supply his needs, but he wanted to put that faith in his current possessions...just in case God didn't keep his promise to supply him with his needs. After all, he may have been thinking to himself, "Why put faith in God to supply my needs when I already have the things I need? Why should I risk losing them? I like my physical possessions." But when the rich man left, Jesus told his audience:

Matthew 19:23-24, "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Let this be a warning to those who are not willing to part with their possessions. For those who would rather covet "their" vessel and keep it, rather than risk losing it for righteousness' sake, then you may want to think about this; Caesar and his swarms of officers can take "your" vessel away from you for any reason they want. Would you rather have protection from Caesar (which means you must forsake the Father), or would you rather have protection from Almighty God (by using Him as a shield and obeying his law)? He is truly a more powerful shield than Caesar and his codes, rules, and regulations.

If you do lose your possessions because of righteousness sake, we are not to have any animosity towards those who steal from us, but we are to forgive them:

Mark 11:26, "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

This is where the Peace of Christ comes in. No matter what man does to us, we will always have the assurance that God will take care of our needs.

Jesus paid the tribute from the coin the fish had in its mouth, and He send to do it so as to not offend. I posted the Scripture evidence, you rejected that Scripture.

That is patently incorrect. Rather, Simon (the one who spoke presumptuously) was rebuked and was the one charged with paying the money - not Jesus. Also, you misunderstand the meaning of “offend.” Jesus did NOT send Simon “to do it” (make payment) because the tax men might be offended by Jesus. Rather, Jesus sent Peter to do it PRECISELY because it was Peter who, with his presumptuous mouth, erroneously obligated himself (and Jesus!) to the tax in the first instance! Because a commercial CONTRACT was entered into when Simon answered in the affirmative, Jesus and Peter would risk an OFFENSE if they did not follow through with what Simon had said he would do.

The closest thing the Christian Church today has to the old Levites receiving tithes of the people are the servants that work in a Church full time, making it their full time job. The U.S. Government tax laws call that a Non-Profit.

This is also patently incorrect.

One Law (God’s) or the other law (Caesar’s) has all the bases covered. Therefore, "Make your calling and election sure."

So-called churches became gagged when they accepted the carrot of tax-free incorporation status from the image (i.e. from ungodly humanistic government). Why did the church do it? Because the pastor wanted another trick to bump his numbers. He can now tell his flock to 'dig deep, because we have a software program which tracks your donations, and at the end of the year, you'll get a tax receipt which you can then apply against your tax liability.' God help us all!

I personally don't agree with any worker in the Church being taxed by governments.

Then don’t support it. Touch not the unclean thing, come out of her.

Bottom line: to which “government” have you submitted? Many honor him with their lips, but their hearts are far from him...

But Jesus paying the tribute to Casaear is not about the Church paying taxes, it's about the 'individual' paying taxes.

Again, this is patently false; the “individual” is “the Church.” But I do understand why you feel that way. It’s simply your personal attempt to make some sense of what you do not discern.

The tax collectors came to Peter and asked him if Jesus does not pay the tribute. Peter said "Yes". Peter then goes into the house where Jesus asks him what he thinks, "... of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?" Peter says "Of strangers". "Then are the children free," Jesus says, but He then continues with the following command to Peter...

There you have it. Jesus tells Simon that the genuine children of God are free from taxation, but because Simon presumptuously said a tax was due, it is now indeed due!

The lesson? Want to offend and go to jail? Then refuse to pay your income tax.

Absolutely correct!

However, if Simon would have said “no” and simply continued in the manner of a child of God, then no tax would have been due.

By giving the tax collectors that coin from the fish's mouth He was showing in this world, this is how it will be.

Rather, Jesus was showing how, for only those OF the world who follow Caesar, a tax would be due. Paying of Caesar’s taxes “is how it will be” for all those who look to Caesar, for all those who see not the silver as belonging to God, but only the superscription of Caesar. Simon spoke like one OF the world, thus he will render unto the god OF the world.

But per His law only strangers were to pay taxes and not the children of the kingdom.

So of which kingdom are you? Remember that no man can serve two masters. We say we love and follow Jesus, but we bear false witness as we are up to our eyeballs via contracts with the ungodly, with the heathen, with Caesar.

...the real 'raiser of taxes' in the U.S. going against God's laws. The people failed to stop it then, as they have failed to stop it today.

“The people”? Rather, what are WE doing to honour the King?

And it has gone so far that it will not be stopped until Christ returns.

I have “stopped” it (thank you, Jesus); what about you?

So why go to jail over it?

This is pure presumption borne of fear, which is a sin. Rather, fear God, not man. It is never too late to do the right thing.

There is no lawyer than can protect a U.S. citizen against it.

What servant of the kingdom of God, of the Most High, would want the world’s “lawyer?”

Followers of Christ are not to be citizens of any earthly nation, but we are to be fellow citizens "of the household of God" (the Ephesians 2:19). Jesus prayed that "...all may be one" (John 17:21). Jesus said, "And the cares of this world…choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful" (Mark 4:19). Paul said, "And be not conformed to this world" (Romans 12:2).

No man can serve two masters.

 

[NoHype]

I can't agree with all that Lawrenceb. Since all things belong to God, those He sets up in power over this world does too. He especially allows these powers over us when we are rebellious against Him, forgetting Him. And thus the powers over us today will only get worse to the end as people rebel against Him the more.

A lot of your reasoning could mislead the believer into thinking they can fight agencies like the IRS and actually win. Only the people of the U.S. joining together to make that change could accomplish such a thing. It will only make the individual who refuses to pay their income tax broke with all the lawyer's fees, jail time, and time off work, something the lawyers love.

If Peter had said 'no', Jesus would still have given the coin so they would have naught against Him. But we see when He was delivered up to Pilate the scribes and Pharisees lied about it anyway.

 

[lawrenceb]

Thanks for your reply.

I can’t agree with all that Lawrenceb.

That’s alright. I expect that.

Since all things belong to God, those He sets up in power over this world does too. He especially allows these powers over us when we are rebellious against Him, forgetting Him. And thus the powers over us today will only get worse to the end as people rebel against Him the more.

This is absolutely true!

The fact remains that anyone who engages in commerce comes under Caesar's jurisdiction. If you feel uneasy about having to do that which seems ungodly, then switch masters - permanently. You have a choice as to which purported authority you submit to and therefore “serve.” Make your calling and election sure.

God’s authority is above all the “government institutions” of men.

At the present time, Satan is the god of this world (I Corinthians 4:4), this present evil world (Galatians 1:4).

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. (Psalm 2:2-3)

They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not.. (Hosea 8:4)

There’s no Godly ordination there!

This is where many stumble with the reality that there is a counterfeit “authority” seeking your obeisance! ...I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:14).

Why does God “allow” ungodly “governments?” What is the purpose of man's law? It is God's rod of correction. God uses man's law to chasten his people. God uses heathens to chasten his people.

We are to place ourselves under God’s jurisdiction, living in God’s kingdom. And we're not going to be perfect, we may fall and do wrong, but we are to check everything that we're doing. And if we do something that's against God's Word, we repent immediately to renew our mind. That's how we renew our mind, by repenting to the King and saying, "I'm sorry. I did not want to do that. It's a habit, it's the way that I learned in the world. Help break me of that." And he does help us if our heart is truly after him. And if you don't repent, he has the natural man right there as a rod of correction for you, and that's what man's codes, rules and regulations are all about.

If we be without chastisement, we would not be his sons. But he loves us, so God uses a rod of correction to wake the sleeping disciple and get him back on course.

Proverbs 22:15, "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:13, "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."

We've been talking about the idolatry of man's law, but now we'll talk about the purpose of it. As we know, everything the Lord allows to exist is for his purposes. Why does man's law exist? Why do people look to it for truth? It's simply because they've turned their backs on the Lord and his law.

In the plan of God, the humanist has always been God's rod to wake the sleeping disciple and get him back on course. If man is the center of 'the world,' and he created all these legal personalities, then the police power is God's rod of correction to get you out of the world, to make things a hotbed of coals to where it is uncomfortable for you to stay there. So, if you're going to come out of the world, then you shed, what is called, all those legal personalities that the world has placed upon you, and you do not answer to them anymore, because your mind has been renewed in the mind of Christ (Ephesians 4:23, Colossians 3:10).

An officer does need a warrant in law to do what he is doing. However, if you're in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing, and partaking of the unclean things, then that man (who you say is ungodly, doing ungodly things against you) is actually God's rod of correction to drive you back to where you should be. If you're not chastened by our Father, then you're a *******, meaning you're a son of the world, and you will not share the privileges of God's children.

Hebrews 12:8, "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

Job 5:17, "Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:"

I repeat: What is the purpose of man's law? It is God's rod of correction. God uses man's law to chasten his people. God uses heathens to chasten his people.

Psalms 125:3, "For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity."

Psalms 106:39-48, "Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a ******* with their own inventions. Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance. And he gave them into the hand of the heathen; and they that hated them ruled over them. Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection under their hand. Many times did he deliver them; but they provoked him with their counsel, and were brought low for their iniquity. Nevertheless he regarded their affliction, when he heard their cry: And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies. He made them also to be pitied of all those that carried them captives. Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise. Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD."

Ezekiel 31:11, "I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness."

Ezekiel 39:27-28, "When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen..."

So, even though you may be righteous and you're following his ways, as soon as you put your hands into iniquity, "the rod of the wicked" (that's his rod) will be there to drive you back to him.

2 Samuel 7:14, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. And when he happens to transgress, then will I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the sons of men:"

Even though we're his son, if we walk away from his law, he will use "the rod of men" to chasten us and drive us back to him. Gentile and Pagan armies may be God's armies. For example, the Chaldeans who destroyed Zion are called "his army" (Joel 2:11); the Assyrians are called "the rod of mine anger" (Isaiah 10:5); and the Medes under Cyrus are termed God's "sanctified ones" and "mighty ones" for his anger (Isaiah 13:3,17). Likewise, Jacob (i.e. the nation of Israel) is the Lord's "battle ax" and "weapons of war" that he uses to chastise other nations (Jeremiah 51:20).

Proverbs 22:15, "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

It is foolish to partake of the ways of the world, and "the rod of correction" will drive that from us. What's interesting is that scripture shows us how God will use the ungodly as a rod of correction, but the natural man doesn't realize that they're there for his purpose. Isaiah 10:5-15 shows that even though God will use the king of Assyria to drive his people back to him, the king doesn't know it. He boasts about how powerful he is and attributes everything to himself, but he's actually God's rod of correction, just like all governments are.

What is the purpose of God's rod of correction?

Jeremiah 5:3, "O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return."

So, we see his rod of correction is to return us to him. And we also see from this passage that there are many who will not be driven back to him by it. But don't despise his chastening.

Proverbs 3:11-12, "My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth."

It is important to understand that the purpose of God allowing "Caesar" to be in power is to test and prove his children, to see if they will keep the laws of God or the laws of the heathen (Judges 2:21; 3:4).

A lot of your reasoning...

It’s not about me; it’s scripture.

A lot of your reasoning could mislead the believer into thinking they can fight agencies like the IRS and actually win.

No, not at all. The born again believer is not to be found in Caesar’s camp! Period.

There is a critical difference between avoidance and evasion.

We are to avoid, not evade, the things of the world.

Proverbs 4:14-15 KJV, "Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away."

I don't need to inject heroin to know that it is not a healthy idea. Touch not the unclean thing. The born again believer is never to be found sustaining a lie. To be blunt about it, every bondman of Christ is presumed by the world to be acting in the mode and character of a pagan because he has borne or given no evidence to the contrary. Is this not bearing false witness? In other words, when a man professes to be a follower and ambassador of Christ and yet acts in a manner that tells the whole world that he is a pagan, then he is bearing false witness to the whole world. These Christians honor God with their lips, but their heart is far from him (Isaiah 29:13, Matthew 15:8, Mark 7:6). We must seek purity!

Only the people of the U.S. joining together to make that change could accomplish such a thing.

The so-called Constitution ala “We the people...” won’t cut it; God is not in that Caesarian humanistic commercial contract - God’s never even mentioned.

Rather, ...without [God] ye can do nothing. John 15:5

It begins with each of each individually. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Phl. 4:13

If your reaction to being told that there are faults in Caesar's statutes is to rush to defend them, it is because you cannot envision life without them. This is normal for someone who can only see one kingdom: the kingdom of this world. Yet this world is passing away, as are our own bodies. There is only one thing in life more certain than Caesar's taxes. So we are really here as a test of whether we can “see” and then choose those things that have eternal value. Are our energies devoted to laying up earthly treasures, or treasures in heaven? Are we slaves devoted to building the kingdom of this world, or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? We cannot even know where to begin unless we can see God's kingdom, which is the true meaning of being born again.

God in his sovereignty has provided the perfect means of testing whether we can make the distinction between the two kingdoms. Caesar has usurped God's authority, but his kingdom is built entirely with our consent and by using legal fictions. His authority over us is imaginary. We do not have to render ourselves to him unless we believe that we belong to him. Most people believe with all their heart that they do, for they cannot see the alternative. But if you know that you belong to God, along with your labor, your family, and everything else you have, then you will already have a deep-seated unease with the multitude of demands Caesar makes on you.

If this is the case, then make a list of those things that rightly belong to God but you have in ignorance given to Caesar. Then develop a plan of action for returning them to their rightful owner. This is not easy, but it is necessary. You will need to learn much more about God's Law so that you can discern what true obedience requires of you. If you trust the State to provide for your needs rather than trusting God, it should be clear which master you are serving. As no man can serve two masters, you have a choice to make. Scripture is clear that obedience to God comes at a price, and we must first count the cost. But once you can see the eternal kingdom, you will realize that any price is worth it.

Matthew 13:44, “The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.”

If Peter had said 'no', Jesus would still have given the coin so they would have naught against Him.

They already “had naught against him.” That’s why they needed to ask him a presumptuous question in the first instance! - to obtain jurisdiction.

I will illustrate. I ask you, “Do you still beat your wife?”

You are shocked, then offended, then angered that I would even think such a thing!

In short, I just accused you of beating your wife - the fact that it’s in the form of a question notwithstanding!

And again, there are many conditioned responses in this thread that need to be addressed. They are presumptions. I do understand that it's more of a conditioned response rather than a willful response -- it's simply how the god of this world has conditioned you to respond. People often react violently when their traditions are ignored, exposed or challenged -- that you have not yet "written me off" is encouraging.

The foundation of the natural man presuming evil is right out of scripture. This verse may also shed a little light on what government is. Sometimes we're accused of "despising governments" because we speak about how evil the government is, they say we're not supposed to do this because of:

2 Peter 2:10, "But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities."

The modern Church says, between Romans 13 and 2 Peter 2:9-10, we're to obey the government, because if we don't, we're despising government. But they forget the government is on Christ's shoulder according to the Word that they profess to believe (Isaiah 9:6). But what's interesting here, in 2 Peter 2:10, is when you go to the word "government" in the Greek, it is "kuriotes," which means "Lord and Mighty One." The word is peculiar to New Testament and Patristic Greek, and denotes the kingly glory of Christ.

So, those that say, "Well, you're not supposed to despise government," yes, they're right. But we're talking about Christ's government, not the secular government. And those that despise Christ's government are presumptuous and self-willed and not afraid to speak evil of dignities. And we see that every day with this so-called government which says God has no place in their world.

If we compare scripture with scripture, 2 Peter 2:10 is very similar to Jude 1:8,

Jude 1:8, "Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities."

The Greek word "dominion" here is the same Greek word for "government" in 2 Peter 2:10. And notice the word "dignities" in these verses. Both the words "government" and "dignities" refer to spiritual powers, and this is confirmed in the verse immediately following Jude 1:8. Notice verse 9 refers to angels and angelic powers. So, these verses are referring to those who despise spiritual powers.

To be able to rebut their presumptions, we have to be without spot (2 Peter 3:14). And there's only one way; through the blood of Christ. Even though you are unspotted from the world and have repented from your previous ways, it doesn't matter to the natural man, because he presumes evil all the time. And this is written right in his law, he fully shows you that he's going to presume evil.

Greenleaf on Evidence is one of the leading books on evidence. It states: "The opinion of individuals once entertained and expressed and the state of mind once proved to exist are presumed to remain unchanged until the contrary appears." Sleeper v. Middlesworth, 4d 431.

And "when the contrary appears" is when you rebut their presumption. It says the court designated this presumption as one "against any sudden change in the moral as well as the mental and social condition of man."

So, he's looking at everyone as though they are the natural man until evidence to the contrary is presented. And that has to do with rebutting their presumptions.

"Rebut means to overcome, to contradict, to persuade or convince to the contrary." Bueller v. Madison, 166 P.2nd 205.

Now, our Master, Christ Jesus rebutted many presumptions, and whenever we do these things, we always have to look to him, because he is our example. Here's a couple of the presumptions he rebutted, and it deals with the Pharisees and Sadducees because they always presumed evil, due to their natural reason, they were all "reasoning together."

In Matthew 12:23-28, they made a presumption that Jesus was casting out devils by Beelzebub, the prince of devils. Jesus rebutted this presumption with the Truth in question format. By asking them a question, you shift the burden from yourself to the intruder. In this case, Jesus rebutted their presumption with the following two questions:

Matthew 12:26-27, "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out?"

That's how we rebut their presumptions, you bring the Sword of the Word to bear down on them. A presumption is a lie to begin with, and the natural man admits that when he says it's a burden they put on people. And the only way to rebut a lie is to bring the truth, and the only place you find the truth is in the Word of God.

In Luke 20:1-8 and Matthew 21:23-27, the Pharisees asked Jesus, "By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?" (Matthew 21:23). That was their presumption of evil because they already had in their mind that he was casting out devils by Beelzebub. By asking this question, the Pharisees passed the ball in Jesus' court. How did Jesus rebut their presumption? With another question! Now the ball is in their court, and the burden is upon them now. This is how Jesus responded after the Pharisees asked him their question:

Matthew 21:24-25, "And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?"

Then the Pharisees "reasoned" with themselves, trying to figure out how to answer Jesus. If they answered "from heaven," they feared Jesus would ask them, "then why didn't you believe him?" And if they answered "from men," they feared being stoned to death by the people because the people believed John was a prophet from God. So what did the Pharisees say to Jesus?

Matthew 21:27, "And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things."

The Pharisees could not give an answer! So they lost by default. Their own presumptuous question (evil intent) was destroyed by another question (placing the burden upon them instead) that brought the Truth to them and exposed their hypocrisy.

When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, Jesus rebutted with the Word of God every time. And that's what we must do. By doing that, you not only honour the father, but you glorify him to the natural man. By expressing the hope that is in us, we glorify the Father.

Some may ask how one can rebut presumptions from an evil government, such as from Nazi Germany. Well, in Nazi Germany, when the storm troopers demanded someone to turn over to them the Jews that are hiding in their house, one could have replied with a question such as, "What's a Jew?" And after the Nazi's describe a Jew to them, they could have told them that they have nobody fitting that description in their home (for everything they say would be all presumptions). Or, another possible reply would be to ask the Nazi's, "What makes you think there are any Jews here?" This places the burden upon them. If they search the house and found so-called Jews in their home, there was no way the Nazi's could prove they were Jews (unless the Jews rendered to Caesar that which is not Caesar's). One cannot tell they are a "Jew" just by their outward appearance, for this is presumptuous. The Nazi's can ask them for their papers, but they can show them the scriptures! "These are my papers, Lieutenant," and then proceed to tell them who they are according to the Word of God.

So, they want you to confirm those presumptions. And you avoid confirming those presumptions and you rebut that with the Word of God. When someone wants to identify you, you tell them who you are according to the Words of God; how he has described you, and not how the world would like you to be described.

1 Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

In 1 Corinthians 2:14, God has distinguished that not everyone is the same. The natural man is not the same as the child of God. So don't believe that we are all the same, that we're all human beings. The phrase, "We're only human" is very popular, but that's promoted to convince everybody that everyone is the same. They're always looking for sameness. That's what the law of identification is, it has to do with sameness. that's why they're always looking for your name, and address, etc. If you have all those things, you are like everyone else, you're a human being, a natural person, and you're subject to their jurisdiction. He wants to see if you'll give recognition to all of the fictions out there; the name of a street, city, county, etc. that they create.

The 14th Amendment to the Constitution says "all persons born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof." That's what they're looking for because those are their own creation. A name is something given by those in authority to those in subjection to that authority. So, when the natural man creates something, such as a 14th amendment citizen, he has a particular definition of that, and if you fit that definition, you are one of his because you are one of his creations. Minimum contacts establish jurisdiction too, and what we have to do is shed all these things, and when they come to you with their presumptions, we have to rebut their presumptions.

The attitude these bureaucrats take is "Well, we're just doing our job." But at some point they're going to have to recognize the truth. What you're doing, are you doing it for truth or are you doing it for another purpose? Because you get paid for it? If you're doing it just because you get paid for it, you're a heathen because you're doing it for the purposes of mammon, of money.

And remember, ignorance of the law is no excuse:

"It is stated frequently that everyone is conclusively presumed to know the law." Holland v. Atlantic Stevendoor & Co. 210 Aff'd. 129, 205 NYS 397.

From the OP:

God wants, what Jesus wants, even demands, is that we "let stuff go". What do you think?

Even better for us to have not appropriated that Caesarian “stuff” in the first place!

Recall how the bad guys were always after Jesus; they wanted to take him into custody, but they required a warrant. Even if they are tyrants, they must have consent of the governed. This is a most important universal maxim. Please read closely. The main way they obtain that warrant, is when you use their words which you, usually in ignorance, appropriate as your own.

How did they go about trying to catch Jesus? What were they looking for to give them the warrant, the consent, they required to carry out their nefarious plan? WORDS!

And they watched [Jesus], and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor.... And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace. (Luke 20:20, 26)

They were not out to take hold of Jesus - they were out to take hold of his WORDS - the “body snatching” would follow as a consequence.

Do you understand the significance of this to our everyday walk?

Again, the officers failed to take Jesus into custody for the chief priests and Pharisees. Why?

And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him. Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. (John 7:44-46).

 

[lawrenceb]

we are still endeared to pay taxes today for non-Church work or services.

That’s not quite correct. Those who are “endeared to pay taxes” are only those who have voluntarily entered into Caesar’s venue and thus become subject to Caesar’s jurisdiction, whereas “the children [of God] are free.” The majority such as yourself are unaware that they do indeed have a choice, rather having acquiesced to Caesar’s purported authority in lieu of knowledge.

Abram didn't take of the spoils he was offered because of the possibility that the king of Sodom would make the false claim that he made Abram rich. By Abram refusing he was giving God the glory of the victory over the defeated kings in that chapter. So it wasn't about some secret oath Abram made with God. And Abram allowed the men with him to take of their portion.

No one but you has implied it was “secret.” Scripture couldn’t be any clearer: “I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord, the most high God…that I will not take anything that is thine…” Abram would not accept the commercial benefits of the heathen, because he knew the resulting duties attached thereto. Instead, he chose to honor the Lord.

Well, you're wrong about that. The tithes and alms giving also was to help the poor and elderly. That's what social security has replaced in modern society.

That is incorrect on several levels.

Social security is nothing more than a Pyramid Scheme foisted upon the weak and ignorant who mistakenly believe that God's provisions are not sufficient. Social Security is nothing more than coveting other people's money.

Canada has a similar program, and instead of a Social Security Number, it is called a Social Insurance Number, or S.I.N. for short. And a SIN is an accurate description for this Socialist Security Number.

Israel's history demonstrates that the lesson of provision is one of the most important lessons we learn in our spiritual pilgrimage. This truth was certainly demonstrated during Israel's exodus from Egypt. It didn't take long for the provisions of Egypt to run out. Moses and the people expected a relatively quick trip across the Sinai Peninsula and into the land of Canaan. Unfortunately, what should have been about a two-week journey ended up being forty years of wandering. During those forty years,God provided supernaturally for the nation. Six days a week, when the dew dried off the ground, a thin flaky substance was left on the desert floor. God called it "bread from heaven" (Exodus 16:4). When the people saw it they asked, "What is it?" (Exodus 16:15). That question in Hebrew could be transliterated, "man hu?" Eventually they called the substance "man ha," meaning roughly "it is what it is."

God's instruction was clear; each one is to gather as much as he needs (Exodus 16:16). No one was to gather a surplus. When they did, it rotted (Exodus 16:20). This was to be a day-by-day experience of God's provision. God faithfully provided manna for forty years.

After forty years, a new generation prepared to enter the promised land under the leadership of Joshua. Moses reminded this new generation of the provision of God and what it was intended to teach:

Deuteronomy 8:2-3, "And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."

God Almighty was teaching Israel the lesson of provision. His covenant is one of provision. Therefore, as his children, we are to depend on God as the source of our security. We are to ask him to meet our needs, and know by faith that he will. Remember, God feeds the ravens (Job 38:41) and not one sparrow is forgotten before God (Luke 12:6).

Luke 12:7, "Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows."

Security of the world is a false image, because there is no security there. You're only safe in the hands of the Lord when you follow his ways and do his will. That's where true safety is and his word shows us that, and he shows us that daily when we follow his ways.

If you find you are looking to the State for your security a little more than you should be, simply repent of it. The Lord will provide for all your needs (Matthew 6:25-34, Luke 12:22-31, Philippians 4:19, Psalm 34:10). But, you may ask, "Don't I need social security?" Well, the State scares you by saying, "What are you going to do when you are old?" The State has convinced everyone that nobody's going to be there for you. Well, the Lord is always there for you.

We don't need insurance from man, because we have assurance from God:

Isaiah 32:17, "And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever."

Hebrews 10:22, "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."

Would you not rather put your faith and trust in Almighty God, rather than in the "Socialist Security" insurance scheme?

Psalms 60:11-12, 108:12, "Give us help from trouble: for vain is the help of man."

The Church is still not required to pay taxes in the Christian nations.

That’s a misleading conclusion. “The Church” (as opposed to the body of Christ) is not immune from Caesar’s taxation; rather, it is exempted, by Caesar, from a mere portion of Caesar’s control. And every benefit accepted from Caesar has an attached obligation…

Jesus and His Apostles did pay tribute (tax) to Caesar:

Matt 17:27
27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for Me and thee.
(KJV)

That’s a faulty conclusion.

And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Let's break this passage down.

Verse 24: The tax collector asked Simon Peter if Jesus paid taxes.
Verse 25: Peter said, "yes". But "Jesus prevented" Peter from paying the tax. Why did Jesus prevent Peter from paying taxes?
Verse 26: Jesus said "Then are the children free" from paying taxes. This is why, because we are now free. But we must not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness.
Verse 27: However, to avoid "offending" this tax collector (since, as was the habit of Peter, he opened his mouth too soon without really thinking and obligated Jesus by his statement that Jesus did pay taxes), Jesus told Peter to cast a hook into the sea, and catch a fish, and take out money from its mouth and pay it.

Even though Jesus provided a coin to Simon for this tax, it was to avoid "offending" the collector, and because Peter rashly agreed to pay it, not because we are bound to pay taxes by Law. Jesus made the point to stress that the children are free from taxes. But notice, Simon Peter and Jesus did not give him any of their own money, but that which came from the fish! It is interesting to note that Peter was a commercial fisherman (a fisher of fish) before being called to be an apostle of Christ (a fisher of men), and when Peter opened his mouth before thinking (as he often did), Christ basically chastised him by having Peter return to his old life to pay his debt! He had to be a fisher of fish to catch that fish with the coin in its mouth Thus, the lesson for us is: When you join yourself to the world, and make obligations to the world, you must become part of the world again to meet those obligations.

So now we know that Jesus did not ‘pay taxes.’ Rather, Jesus cleverly provided a coin to Simon Peter with which to satisfy Simon’s foolishly incurred legal obligation and thus teach him (and us) a lesson.

Additionally, Jesus could not have fulfilled prophecy if he was to go to prison, which might have happened if he didn't pay that tax after Peter "volunteered" for him. It was not his time to go to prison yet. Likewise, Jesus could have called twelve legions of angels to his rescue, but because the scriptures would not have been fulfilled if he did, he refrained from doing that act (Matthew 26:53-54</SPAN>). Jesus taught that we are free from paying taxes if we are children of the king (Matthew 17:24-26), meaning the children of King Jesus (Acts 17:7, 1 Timothy 1:17).

Now, for clarification, if a government is acting strictly as a minister of God, then it is lawful to pay taxes to that government (Romans 13:6), because that "silver coin" which belongs to God also belongs to God's ministers, as they are acting in his name and doing his will. However, if a government is not a minister of God, then there is no duty to give taxes to it. To partake of this kind of government and pay the taxes due therefrom is to support a government bent on destroying God's dominion.