Getting to Ten

[Chad]

Getting to Ten

Honor the LORD with your possessions, and with the firstfruits of all your increase.
Proverbs 3:9

Recommended Reading
Proverbs 3:9-10

In his book, Seismic Shifts, Kevin Harney tells about Dan and Dawn, who had been active in church but had never reached the point of giving a full ten percent of their income to the Lord. They were juggling the expenses of a growing family. But they felt God wanted them to increase their giving, and they established a plan to do it in increments. One day Dan felt it was time to make the final step. He sat down with Dawn to suggest giving a full ten percent -- a tithe. Smiling at him, she said, "We have been tithing for the past three months!" God had been so faithful in meeting their needs that Dan hadn't missed the money and hadn't realized his wife had accelerated the schedule. 1

Money is one way we can see who we are. If we try to control our money on our own, we do not trust Him as we should. But if we honor Him in giving, it's a mark of faith and faithfulness.

If our habits or hobbies are so expensive that we can't give God the first ten percent, it might be time to break a habit or scale back on a hobby.
Kevin Harney

Read-thru-the-Bible
Exodus 20:1 -- 22:31
1 Kevin G. Harney, Seismic Shifts (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2005),*198.

 

[Kit Carson]

Here we go........ God wants us to "sow generously," and He does not want us to give to the church grudgingly. According to II Corinthians 9:6-8, "God loves a cheerful giver." God wants us to give to the church what we have decided in our hearts. He does not want us to give "reluctantly or under compulsion." However, the Bible reminds us that those who give generously will also reap generously. See II Corinthians 9:6-8.

That demanding money all the time by a preacher is a sure way to run me off and many others. This demand seems to be put forth by those who are well off at the time. They are blessed with much and so they can give much. The message to the entire congregation is to give or go to hell for not paying your love tithe.

Some of it is a bit like the Lion preying on the deer, the Lion eats them up and puts the other deer in fear.

I have never heard a preacher in my entire life say something like this: If you have money and can afford to give it please do so, but if you are unemployed and struggling to meet the utility bill, let alone this hobby of choice, that charity starts at home. I have seen the religion get so demanding and put so much fear in some, that they would give the money to a church that would have provided a much better Sunday dinner at home. I have never yet heard a preacher say if you are poor and struggling God bless you and hold you, if you wish to give just two coins like the old lady did that is cool. Those two coins meant more to Jesus than the tithe from those more affluent. I have never met a preacher who would speak these things.

Because it opens a hole in his pocket and the fancy church. They may not get the new addition or build that new building for their own purposes and pride, quite so quickly.

I have struggled with this mindset my entire life. I am and have been basically self employed for most of my life, I am a craftsman and there are good times and bad times. There are times of good and times of bad. At the moment times are bad, it is a struggle with the fall of the housing market to even pay the fuel bill for the service vans.

I look at the many who have no work, be they lazy and wanting to sit on the dole or just cannot find work . Many do try with all their might to obtain work, as I get several calls a day from those looking for work and they beg me for a job, they tell me they desperately need work. I see on some work sites those also begging for work. So they are living hand to mouth. They may have to fore go this or that to purchase this or that, so they do really struggle.

But if they do wander into a church of man, the very first thing they will hear is this demand of tithe. And the preacher will do his best to convict them to give this ten percent tithe.

This is totally wrong.

About five years ago a Baptist Church was constructed out by the road to the lake. This is a huge expensive building, and cost much money, it is a fancy Dan. And by the driveway set this sheet of plywood with a sundial on it, and it had a moveable pointer that said, we need this much but only collected this much........Lol! Oh yea!!!Build this fancy place and put the entire congregation into debt and just about every sermon got around to that money collection.

Well shut up Kit and sum it up.

My church is you Chad, and all those who believe in God. My church is the ones who believe in God. It is not a man made building of fancy extravagance. To me this is an obscene use of money intended for good use. What is wrong with a simple pole building and some tables and chairs and fellowship and Sunday dinner furnished by all and a preacher who loves God and not money? I do not see this much anymore.

I will give, when I have it, but usually not to the church, I will use it wisely and go buy food and give it to a food bank, or I will drop off some blankets or something to the fire station and let them do as they will.

I have heard this doctrine since I began going to church, and I by Gods grace and by the word of his Holy Spirit finally decided not only to resist this but fight against it. To tell all to give what your heart tells you to, take into consideration the lives of all in all their different situations and to try to make those with little feel bad as they cannot give this ten percent as if they did they would not be able to pay the rent and would become those in need.

You see, it is a way to look at it all with compassion to all. It is the way Jesus told us to be. Give what you can, and if you do give to do so with glad heart. Expect no reward, do not do it with this mind set, but do so out of compassion and I God will naturally bless you for your compassion.

I find the modern demands for tithe to be obscene. I see the use of the money they garner to be obscene.

As for Kit, I will give out of my heart. And I will do so with wisdom.

I just had an old lady call me, she is very old I can tell by her voice on the phone, her sewer is blocked, I may have compassion on her and reduce the fee, she will not know this, all she will know is I gave her a smile and was a great guy, but God will know.

Understand??

Kit

 

[Peace Seeker]

What I am uncomfortable about with my current church is they have no accountability towards the congregation for what they do with the money. You tithe, they spend how they like, without saying how much they spent on whatever it is they spend it on.

The church I grew up in had monthly and yearly bulletins they gave to every congregant, that outlined to the penny all the expenses they had and how they used the tithes. And if you used the provided envelope for your tithe, you could tick a box saying where you wanted the money to be used.

I liked that, because if most of the money just went to the utilities and church mortgage I wouldn't be happy about that. So I don't know if I have the wrong expectations or not, but I like to know where my money is going. And I would tithe more money if I knew where it was going.
I think we should have ugly old church buildings that have low expenses, that as such, are able to spend most of the tithes on the poor and needy.

 

[MatthewFive]

We must remember what church actually is. Matthew 18:20 reads, "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

In my opinion, a church is not a lavish building with comfortable pews and decorations hanging from a vaulted ceiling, but a simple place for people to gather and discuss God's glory.

In my own understanding of the way our world works through societal means, a man dressed in a suit and tie with combed hair and groomed moustache has become synonymous with honesty and respect, but we can see through the works of many that this is not the case at all. A prideful man will boast his accomplishments outward in a flashy way, but an earnest man will humble himself in his attire.

I know that's not scripture, but it works for my example. When I see a huge church filled with lavish decorations, TV cameras, and the entire congregation dressed in expensive clothing I am put off by that church and therefore would rather withhold my money from it - seeing as it is not needing what little money I have to offer it.

James 4:10 reads, "Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will lift you up." With that, it is my opinion that the tithe I choose to give should not go to the building that houses God's people, but to the people who fill its pews.

When a man sits on a street corner holding a sign that says "Hungry, please help." I don't give that man the change in my pocket. Proverbs 25:21 reads, "If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink." With that mindset, I would rather purchase this man something to eat rather than give him money.

A man sat on the sidewalk in front of Wendy's one day, and as I was heading inside he asked simply, "Could you help me with something to eat?" I smiled at him and said, "Sure, I'll buy you something to eat, come inside with me."
He wasn't expecting that and I could see from the look on his face he was amazed that someone would actually invite him in to dine. I felt good about helping that man eat, instead of simply dropping change into his hand that possibly wouldn't allow him the ability to purchase anything to fill his stomach.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you don't feel comfortable with giving a tithe to the church you attend because of where you think it might be going, then it is best to find other means of giving - as long as it is done without expecting something in return or the ability to boast about doing it.

 

[Kit Carson]

It is a decision to be made by each I suppose. But I do know for a fact that money and the demand for it and the seen waste and obscenity of its extravagant use and its waste is the HUGE stumbling block for a great amount of the population in regards to going to a church.

I myself do not attend church all the time, due to many factors, but I could make time, I could if I wished, but I have no wish to go and listen to some pimp preacher hawk for money. And I know this is the man reason a great many people do not go either.

Tithes were set in place during the old law and time first when Abraham gave to a priest a part of his loot through war and conquest and then by God again when he took the inheritance from the Levites and made them the priests and keepers of his words and ways. So it was to support the Levites their families and the temple and yes to provide help and such to the very poor. It was not to build fancy buildings and drive fancy cars and to install a new lighting system in a building , when the old lights work just fine.

Jesus also in his way told of how governments of man placed by God are to be respected and followed and the taxes we are charged are to be paid. Its intent was to protect and govern and to also provide for the poor and a blanket of protection for the people. Almost the same idea as the old way of the race of Levites whom were tasked with this in the old days. But today we have no need of the temple and the priest as each of us go directly to God. No more priests needed. We should allow a modern day new testament preacher a fair living, but no where in Gods word does it say to tithe to the modern way that uses the money in false ways. We are in fact warned about this.

God commands that his word or Gospel be spoken. That is all. He did not command a huge religion be built around his words and the church to become as it has become. The church has become as a business living in the world and ruled by the world and subject to its rules , by its very existence as a physical building it is subject to the pride of man. It has become a religion dwelling in fancy buildings and Gods word is spoken by preachers or pimps with their own agenda and intent. And their main intent is the collection of money. They have become like our own government, something to see and what do I see, as God says, I see an abomination. I see no real concern for the poor, no real concern for helping others, no real concern for speaking out in the community and instead when I walk out the church doors I see again the crime, the poverty and these things surrounding the church. It can be and is right next door. Hey forget about them, we have prayed to God to help them. Ok, what about this large church membership, do you think maybe if you all stood together and raised your voice you could accomplish many things, instead you hide and pay your tithes, pat yourself on the back and say God will take care of it.

A church has a purpose, and it teaches moral values, it speaks the gospel some of truth, some not, but all do accomplish some good. Even a pimp like Benny Hinn accomplishes some good by total accident. So to go to church and worship and spend time with others and to have a way to teach and for the kids to attend Sunday school and even adult discussion is great. That is its real intent.

Sadly once they get a larger membership they aspire to be like the others.

Sadly even the small membership churches aspire to become bigger. The importance is put upon a bigger building, and self pride and worth than to work to improve the world.

To sum it up, the pimping for money is the one biggest stumbling block to us all. It is my very large stumbling block. I walk into a church and the very first thing I hear is the preacher trying to convict the members to give more, more, more, are you not ashamed of yourself, and all the little tricks , if you give 10 percent money and wealth will fall out of the sky and you will suffer injury from the money that falls on you, give God some love gifts, God loves you, so you should love God, give him some money. Oh yea.

A person seeking God walks into one of these churches and this is the first thing he hears. Money, money, more money. He as he walks to his old ailing car sees the preacher get into his fancy brand new luxury car. He stops on the way home and drops off a case of canned corn to the food bank and asks the person in charge , other than the red cross , private people and the salvation Army , who has helped you.........none the man says. As he drives back through town he sees the thugs selling dope on the same block the church is built upon, so he, I, and many have little faith in any church.

Kit Carson and the Truth, the way it is.

 

[Kit Carson]

Good Morning All:

I figured i would be tarred and feathered, banned, head chopped off and told I was Satan reincarnated. Lol. In all my views of life is an easy way and a sense of humor and confidence. I speak what is on my heart to men as I do to God. God has given me this confidence. So I have a couple other things to say, and then I will drop the example of arrogance of meekness. To push the issue and take the subject for more than a mile, and to take it two miles but cause all to think. This is my intent.

To begin with if you are a young Christian with a family by all means take your family and find a church. Keep the youngsters in this setting as long as you can. There are many pitfalls in life and to be around the word of God is a great blessing and help to them. It teaches them morals and how to life and plants the basis of salvation. Even if they like I did in young adult years get out on the edge of the cliff and almost fall off, God will not let them. They belong to him and are a gift to Christ and they will sooner or later put away the foolishness of youth and behave. This is Gods promise to us all. And it is also the truth. So do not let the words and post of discussion of the bad side of things discussed become the blueprint of judgement of it all. Walk with Gods word and simply be aware of the things that are. Be aware of what is and will be and cling to Gods word and it matters not if a church is not prefect, you see none of them are, as they are made up of us, men, and as none of us are perfect then there will not be perfection in the church either, so the sins of greed, wealth and such things, well this is why we need Jesus.

None of us have an issue with a fair living to any Minister and none of us have any issue with helping the needy. It is just that we should develop a way of stewardship to make sure the money gained is actually used to benefit the needy. If you see that it is not, then if you still wish to help do so, but in your way, with intelligence and with the truth and compassion the Jesus teaches us. Beware of the wolf collecting money for pride and the use of self worth.

Giving to the needy is a situation from the heart. It is not about a duty of sitting down and writing out a check. It is not about belonging to a modern church run like a business. It is not about a mandatory amount of a tithe. It is about doing what in your heart is felt to be right. It is about the realization that there are no requirements or money amount to be given. It is about to do as much as you can with your present given situation in life. And if you are struggling now, or in the future and or unemployed and so on, and if you only put five bucks in the collection plate, you are in Gods eyes more favored than the one who put in one hundred bucks out of the sense of duty to the church. Or done with a sense of obligation. God does not want obligation, he wants free will, compassion and giving to others because we wish to.

Let me tell you a true story about my neighbor. I tell this with humor and as an example of this one situation. Please do not use it for all situation, just be aware this is a side the members of a church rarely see. They have no insight behind the Sunday service. They do not know the man, the preacher or his true feelings. They do not look for those. So I tell it with a bit of humor.

My neighbor is a preacher. A small one, he has about 40 or so families who attend his church. To set the stage he and his family have about 20 acres of land, his family of several generations live on the land in mobile homes. The church is a mobile home also with a steeple built of plywood fastened to the roof structure of one of the mobile homes.

I did not know him too well for a long time, he would come say Hello once in awhile and always, he would hawk for money from me. He would hand me a little prayer card, tell me he would be praying for me and request money. Lol! I would always tell him I know about God , you do not have to save me, and I have no interest at this time in attending your church, just an honest answer. He was not used to honest answers and his face would always get a bit red. Lol!

So over time he watched me build one nice home , and then we gave the nice home to our oldest son and I built a new smaller home for us, about 200 feet from the other home and one day and this all took place over a weeks period of time, it was hot, I was digging a ditch by hand to install the drainage piping under the slab and I for some reason had stopped and got a six pack of beer. A six pack of beer will last me a whole year. I drink very little, but do occasionally have a beer. So the six pack was sitting on the concrete blocks I had not even touched it, just sit it there as I unloaded the van with materials I had purchased and the six pack too, and I was busy installing the drain pipes when he came to see me. First he attacked me about drinking. Lol! I was going to hell and he would pray for me.
I told him hey, I have no touched it yet, but I intend to, besides to have a drink is cool, to be a drunk is not cool. It is like talking to a stump. Lol!

So he now says where is your backhoe, and I told him it was on another job site. Well he would like to borrow it. I asked him why and he wanted his driveway graded and to fill up the holes. I told him that I would come one day soon and do it for him. That I would not loan the machine out but I would fix his drive for him no problem and no charge. So he left me telling me he would pray for my soul and my drinking problem. Lol! But he still was hawking for money. Still handing me that little prayer donation card. Give me money and I will pray for you. Cool. Live and let live, but please just go away, giggle.

So later in the week the preacher and his members had a BBQ and got to drinking beer, and threw all the beer cans over the fence unto my land. Hey no big deal, nothing to get upset over. I expect others to act contrary to what they speak. It is the world after all.
So he was in the yard and as I am never ornery and always well behaved........do not believe that statement........ha!......I walked over and picked up each can and tossed it at him. He stood there and did not say a word. I suppose he was a bit scared of me. Did not know what to do. Hey I was so full of mischief inside I was really having to be in great control not to laugh.

So I fixed his drive for him a couple days later, just pulled in and took 30 minutes on the way home with the machine and graded the driveway.

So he came over and at this point I was that day starting to build the top row of block and forms for the concrete floor and he never got around to telling me thanks as soon as he walked up he started that trying to hand me his little prayer card and to ask for money for his church again.

At this point I told him, look sunshine I do not belong to your church, I have my own church, I have shown you the spirit of giving by fixing your driveway, yet you attack me for being a drunk and then have a party and throw cans unto my property. I think you need to search your own soul a bit. He got all puffed up like a toad , and told me he would never be back to see me, that he would never ever again sit foot on my property.

I told him , well I suppose now I do not have to build you a gate in the fence. So far he has stood good to his promise. I have never seen him again.

Are these the acts of a Christian, or the acts of a man preaching the word of man.


Out of this one, I wanted to bring some truths to light. Some things for all to consider. To show all the word of God is always true. But the words of men always have to be tested. For they are rarely true.

Respectfully

Kit

 

[Peace Seeker]

Wow, Kit, what a story! It's so true that the words of men always have to be tested, even if, and probably more-so because they are pastors! I think the warning flag was his incessant hawking for money.....the root of all evil, etc.

I agree that our giving should be where it will help most. I used to think, just give, if the recipient doesn't use the tithe properly it's on his head, not mine. But I've changed that tune and my current thinking is it's not the giving that's important, it's that the money be used wisely. Give money to a big name televangelist, or food to someone on the street, the choice for me is a no-brainer!

P.S. - did you really call that pastor "sunshine"?

 

[Kit Carson]

Wow, Kit, what a story! It's so true that the words of men always have to be tested, even if, and probably more-so because they are pastors! I think the warning flag was his incessant hawking for money.....the root of all evil, etc.

I agree that our giving should be where it will help most. I used to think, just give, if the recipient doesn't use the tithe properly it's on his head, not mine. But I've changed that tune and my current thinking is it's not the giving that's important, it's that the money be used wisely. Give money to a big name televangelist, or food to someone on the street, the choice for me is a no-brainer!

P.S. - did you really call that pastor "sunshine"?

Yes Sir, I called him Sunshine. First I told him I do not like your attitude and your manner, then I called him Sunshine. It is an expression to show them you think they are stupid, but by saying it in an arrogant manner that they shine like the sun ..........NOT.

Recently I have a new , new way , say I hit my finger with the hammer or tear my shirt under a house, I have conquered the cuss word, I now yell out a politicians name. Lol!

For a few years when I way younger I saw the waste and they misuse of the money given to the churches. I would go to this one and to that one and I still do this some. But I would feel bad over the whole situation and I knew the money was being wasted, but my beliefs in men, kept me in the loop. You see when I was young I was just like many, I relied upon the words of the men who run the church, they are to be trusted right?? I was like many going through the motions, with no real knowledge of why.

Thank God himself for a revelation out of that mess.

So now with my answer to what should be from Gods word and the Holy Spirit, now I seek a good church for later reference. So I do once in awhile just wander into one and sit down. When I retire in five years I wish to as my use of time to get involved in a church.......provided they do not burn me at the stake. So God is slowly tempering my tolerance to nonsense. There was a time I walked away from church totally over the sins of men in them. My mind was centered upon the nonsense.

Well I was shown that I am full of nonsense sometimes too, and as men run the church, there will always be nonsense.......so it takes a good person or two to keep the nonsense to a simmer and keep the kettle from boiling over.........and just maybe some of them will understand.

It is a complicated situation, but I do think the demand for money is the one biggest factor that keeps many out of a church. When they look at its use, and they view the huge obscene situations on T.V. hey it does not take a large IQ to see the hand in your wallet.

I sometimes wonder how the old are ripped off as they are. Do they lose their means of reason with age? Do they trust more? I dunno, with each day I become more non-trusting, and if I contract to have a new roof put on my home, I will walk behind the home to see if the roofed the back also............and pay them only when done. So much of this is by the choice of those who allow it. Why they do so ........I dunno, the desire to buy their way to heaven I suppose. As this is the message from many.



Kit

 

[Peace Seeker]

Recently I have a new , new way , say I hit my finger with the hammer or tear my shirt under a house, I have conquered the cuss word, I now yell out a politicians name. Lol!

ROFL, I can just picture all the possibilities! Son of Obama! :wink:

For a few years when I way younger I saw the waste and they misuse of the money given to the churches. I would go to this one and to that one and I still do this some. But I would feel bad over the whole situation and I knew the money was being wasted, but my beliefs in men, kept me in the loop. You see when I was young I was just like many, I relied upon the words of the men who run the church, they are to be trusted right?? I was like many going through the motions, with no real knowledge of why.

Thank God himself for a revelation out of that mess.

I hope He reveals His plans for me about this issue as well, coz I certainly don't want to go through the motions, as you put it. I know pastors need a salary and all that, but I agree with you, the waste and abuse issue is unacceptable.

Well I was shown that I am full of nonsense sometimes too, and as men run the church, there will always be nonsense.......so it takes a good person or two to keep the nonsense to a simmer and keep the kettle from boiling over.........and just maybe some of them will understand.

Yeah, I've been thinking about this. Where people are running things there will always be some degree of something going on that I won't like. I have to figure out if maybe I expect too much out of a church. Or maybe they don't feed me enough spiritually. Lots of issues for me as a church-goer! I also wonder, is the reason for going to church so I can worship God, or is it for me to get something out of it (whether that is being spiritually fed, or whatever)?

I am not a member of my church because I don't get why I should be. As if my attendance isn't enough. Costco has memberships, why the church? I am a part of the Ecclesia, not a part of a 4-walled building. Anyway, I'm kinda just thinking out loud here.

I sometimes wonder how the old are ripped off as they are. Do they lose their means of reason with age? Do they trust more?

I have wondered that myself. Maybe it's simply that they are lonely and want to feel important. Maybe they do lose some of their reasoning with age, their mind slows down, etc. I hate seeing them ripped off.

I dunno, with each day I become more non-trusting, and if I contract to have a new roof put on my home, I will walk behind the home to see if the roofed the back also............and pay them only when done. So much of this is by the choice of those who allow it. Why they do so ........I dunno, the desire to buy their way to heaven I suppose.

It is pretty hard to trust people these days, and I don't think we are biblically required to anyways. As a general rule of thumb I don't trust people without reason to. Trust is earned.

 

[Kit Carson]

A church is a need in the world of today. Simply due to the population and the modern times. The world is greatly populated and varied with many races and cultures.

Long ago there was one Temple , the one God in spirit dwelled in upon earth. There were strict rules , simple rules but strict. And just like the brothers who let the incense fire go out and lit it with strange fire, fire not from the main alter, instant discipline was realized. But people came from the area to visit the temple and the Levite priests. With their guidance worship and repentance of sin was done. That was then.

Today one or two or three or a hundred temples are not enough, as the world is very populated. But there is no need of a church on every corner and in suburb areas there is now a church most likely on average every five miles or so, in my area there are a great many churches. There is a new one going up, it has a huge concrete footprint and will be another fancy Dan. No telling how many million dollars it will cost to complete.

A side business that these big churches have now gotten into is Day Care. And boy is it expensive. You would think that a church with the views of God and compassion if they so did this, would do so at an economical price, but the trend locally is to hammer the independent women who attempts day care in the home with some regulation violation and close her down, and even small day cares locally around the area have went down one by one due to false scandals and so on. In any event the huge churches for the most part now control Day Care. And each child the fee is around 300 dollars per week.........yes per week with an additional 200 dollars per week for an additional child and so on. So a young family working for minimum wage, paying 500 dollars per week, put a great strain on them. It takes one partners entire pay and part of the others each week, just to say I do work. So some do give it up and enter the government social care programs. But the churches run this as a business and make a huge amount of money off it. These big churches build large areas to care for the kids , a kitchen and so on, so 200 plus kids per week is 250 thousand a month. Or 3 million dollars per year, minus expenses, or around $2,900,000.00 per year. Minimum . Pretty good deal eh??

I see this trend and expense to the young families, instead of providing an economical way and uplift, to force many to enter the social programs of today. They have to, there is no other way.

So that is one thing I see. It is all about profit and gain. Tax free .


Is there a church today that is a church of God, by God and for God.
I honestly do not think so. Even if you were to have a honest Preacher take over a church, unless the church is small and independent, he cannot preach Gods word, as the church members, those in power of that particular church .........tell him how to act, and what to say. You see, they do not wish to run off any prospective money provided by the members who attend. So all things become permissible, from living together to homosexual allowance to doctrines of elect , to this to that. It is a modern way to preach what the people want to hear. To gain a lot of money is the entire goal.

They are the same as our current funny farm politicians, you watch them start out, oh yes I stand for God and I am against this or that as God says this is so. A couple weeks go by and this position is not at all popular so they do a flip and turn and say.........well I suppose, Ok, so now I will say this. I will keep the people happy. I will tell them what they wish to hear.

So Peace ........all you can do is hold to Gods word, and adopt the peace and forgiveness shown us by Jesus. To not condemn them but forgive them, but above all do not join them. You can go to any church and worship, be honest and not be enticed to become as they are.

That is all we can do.

Kit

 

[Peace Seeker]

I know, there is hardly a church that doesn't run a daycare, and they certainly do make a lot of money off of them. Here in Canada they also get subsidized by the government, which adds even more money to their coffers. Plus a lot of churches have Weight Watchers, A.A., and other weekly groups that all pay to use the church facilities. So I wonder how much the church really needs the tithe money.

I agree that pastors cannot preach Gods word, especially if they are in a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt church, which the majority of churches are. The I.R.S. has mandates about what they can and cannot preach. It's quite sad that this is so.

And about our "funny farm politicians", they are, as most honest observers can see, constant liars and are only out to fleece the sheep. These crooks in government won't let honest people in.

Having said all this, I am thankful that we still have a church where we can go and worship our Lord and assemble with one another. I don't want to judge them, I will pray for them instead.

 

[Kit Carson]

Hey:

Well PeaceSeeker:


See you had the answer all the time. It is simple.
We speak against these things as we see them in the truth. But a church is made up of us. We as men cannot ever hope to be perfect and we certainly are not.

So the answer is to listen to the word of God, listen to other men, but test them and if opportunity does present itself to gently and patiently convey that this or that is wrong.

We just have to not be unwary and become a part of the things we do not like due to the wish to belong or to be accepted by others. We are to just forgive them and remember the times that we also had ideas not in line with Gods word.

It is a world that takes great wisdom to live in in the world of today. Everything we see and hear has to be tested and challenged.

But it is not so hard. God shows us all these things that are and will be and as are. We as ones who believe in him can only convey the truth and forgive those who are caught up in the wish for acceptance and the need to belong by association to a group. And realize that there is also great good accomplished also. And that we are all forgiven of these things as we as men a basically stupid. Lol!
We will cut off our toes before we put on our shoes. It just seems to be the way we are.

So yes, forgive them and do what we can to change it and if we cannot realize God has said it will be so.

Kit