Getting Saved vs Staying Saved

[B-A-C]

Threads like this inevitably lead to OSAS, Calvinism, Armenianism and other unpleasant things.
But it seems like every thread out there has something about works.

You don't have to do much to get saved.
John 3:16; and Eph 2:8-9; are examples of how to get saved.
You can't earn it, you can't work for it. All you can do is accept it. It is up to you to choose to follow Jesus.

But once you are saved, now there are things you have to do.
Most of the New Testament is full of these things you can't do, and things you are expected to do.
You have to work to stay saved. Yes, that flies in the face of OSAS, but it's what the Bible says.

The parable of the talents is a good example of this.

Matt 25:24; "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25; 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27; 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28; 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29; "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There were three servants, two invested their talents and increased the kingdom of God. One did nothing, he hid his talent in the ground.
His talents were taken away from him and he was thrown out. He is called wicked and lazy.

We also have the sheep and the goats.

Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The sheep fed, clothed, and visited people. The goats didn't. The sheep go to eternal life, the goats go to eternal punishment.

Eph 2:8-9; say we aren't saved by works and so we aren't.

James 2:14-26; say our faith alone can't keep us saved. We better have some works to go along with the faith.
In fact James says faith alone can't save us. ( James 2:24; )

Faith alone doesn't keep people saved... even the demons believe.

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Not everyone who says Jesus is their Lord will make it to heaven. If you're practicing lawlessness (sin) Jesus won't let you in.
Now obeying the commandments isn't really a work per se, but it is something you have to do.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

It doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus or not... good deeds = resurrection of life. Evil deeds = resurrection of judgment.

There are dozens of verses like this. You better do this.. or else.
You better not do that.. or else.

Luke 13:25; "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'
Luke 13:26; "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
Luke 13:27; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'

You know the Bible, you listened to the words of Jesus? That's great... listening doesn't get you anything.

Rom 2:13; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Jas 1:22; But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

I know there are churches that preach against this. I've even attended some of them. But the Bible doesn't teach "faith alone". There is no verse in the Bible where "grace" and "alone are in he same verse.
The only verse that has the words "faith" and "alone" both together in the same verse is James 2:24; and it says "not by faith alone".
You claim to be a tree in the masters garden?

Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

You better be bearing some fruit. Even with Jesus watering, fertilizing, and aerating the soil, some trees refuse to bear fruit.

People need to quit confusing what you need to do to "get saved" with what you need to do to "stay saved".

Contrary to what some churches preach, Salvation isn't a "once and done" thing. It's a daily walk, it's a journey. It's trials and testings, it's taking up your cross and dying to self daily.
It's holding on to the love of Christ.

Rev 2:4; 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.

Oh but I love Jesus... do you? Really?

John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

But the thief on the cross didn't do any works. He didn't sin after he received Jesus either, can you say that?
On top of that Jesus hadn't ascended to heaven until sometime after He was resurrected. ( John 20:17; )
The thief was under the old covenant.

 

[Dave M]

Bottom line is, the way you live matters and has consequences. Grace is being distorted by the majority of the main stream churches today, to the point of thinking works is a bad thing and represents the law.

Yet Grace is what produces works,, if you have a problem with good works, your problem might be more about Grace then works

I was talking to a missionary this past sunday, and this guy has been all over the world, and he said God has done so much for him, he wants give back and just show by his good works and tell everyone what God has done for him

 

[complete]

'Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28)

 

[B-A-C]

'Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28)

This is true, it is 'ONE' of the things listed as a work.
But even if it was the 'ONLY' one... have you ever stopped to consider what believing in Jesus means?

Believing in Jesus doesn't just mean I believe there was a man named Jesus.
It means believing in all the things He said, taught, and did.

..and if you really believe the things He taught, .. things like repent or burn in hell.
Then you should be living like you believe it.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 5:16; "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
John 9:4; "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
Rom 4:4; Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

A lot people like to quote Eph 2:8-9; but they like to leave out the next verse.

Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

1Tim 2:9; Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
1Tim 2:10; but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.

1Tim 5:9; A widow is to be put on the list only if she is not less than sixty years old, having been the wife of one man,
1Tim 5:10; having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.

1Tim 6:18; Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

But some will say, what about verses like...

2Tim 1:9; who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

... that is exactly my point. We don't "get" saved by doing works.

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

But after we are saved... there MUST be some works.

Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Jas 2:25; In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Jas 2:21; Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Acts 9:36; Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.

Acts 26:20; but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

Tit 2:7; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified,

Heb 10:24; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,

Jas 3:13; Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.

1Pet 2:12; Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

Rev 3:2; 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.

Matt 7:24; "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:26; "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

 

[Beetow]

• John 10:11 . . I am the good shepherd

When people insist that it's incumbent upon Jesus' sheep to keep themselves
saved-- i.e. ransomed, spared, rescued, and protected --they are actually casting a
vote of no confidence in his reliability as a shepherd.

A shepherd that loses sheep might qualify as an adequate shepherd, but certainly
not the good shepherd that Jesus claims to be.

Jesus claims that he always pleases his Father.

• John 4:34 . . My food, said Jesus; is to do the will of Him who sent me and to
finish His work.

• John 8:29-30 . . The one who sent me is with me; He has not left me alone, for I
always do what pleases Him.

It is God's will that His son lose none of the sheep entrusted to his care.

• John 6:39 . . And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all
that He has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Were Jesus to disappoint His Father by losing even one single head of the sheep
that God entrusted to His son's care, then Jesus would no longer be able to claim
that he always pleases his Father; i.e. he might claim to please his Father most of
the time, but certainly not always.

Some claim that the sheep of their own free will can disconnect themselves from
the good shepherd's care and protection. However, God's free will trumps
everybody's else's free will; and it is His free will that the good shepherd lose no
sheep.

• John 10:9 . . I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved

Were Christ a so-so shepherd; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be" saved; no, he'd
have to tone it down a bit and say "can be" saved. That would leave him some
room for error. But when Christ says "shall be" he's claiming a 0.0% failure rate.
That's how confident God's son is that he will lose nothing of those his Father has
given him

* Human beings rely upon trusting relationships, and suffer deeply when trust is
broken. We today live in a global dystopia of dishonesty: politicians let us down so
often that we take it for granted; and advertisers promise their products will
improve our lives which of course they rarely, if ever, do. Social media moguls sell
our private data sans our knowledge or our consent. Church leaders dabble in
adultery and embezzlement. Even egg cartons lie to us. They depict happy chickens
in open fields when the reality is closer to overcrowded concentration camps
warehousing thousands of miserable, clucking prisoners.

So it doesn't surprise me that folk have trouble believing that God's son is 100%
deserving of our confidence, and that he won't renege on his promises. Actually,
we are so accustomed to disappointment, that were he to renege, I suspect that
many of us would half expect it.
_

 

[B-A-C]

It surprises some people to know there is no verse in the Bible that says when we stand before God we will judged by what we believe, or who we believe in.
However there are a number of verses that say we will be judged by what we did.

Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Rev 2:26; 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

Rom 2:5; But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6; who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7; to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Rom 2:9; There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Rom 14:10; But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Rom 14:11; For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
Rom 14:12; So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

1Pet 4:17; For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

2Cor 5:10; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[B-A-C]

When people insist that it's incumbent upon Jesus' sheep to keep themselves
saved-- i.e. ransomed, spared, rescued, and protected --they are actually casting a
vote of no confidence in his reliability as a shepherd.

A shepherd that loses sheep might qualify as an adequate shepherd, but certainly
not as the good shepherd that Jesus claims to be.

God didn't lose any of the Jews going through the wilderness. He knew exactly where every one of them was at all times.
He fed them, made sure their clothes and shoes wear out, gave them mannah and quail.
Gave them a cloud by day, and fire by night. But even though God didn't lose any of them... only a few of them made it into the promised land.

..why didn't they? (I apologize for the caps, but my Bible has these verses in upper case, I didn't change it)

Heb 3:8; DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9; WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10; "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
Heb 3:11; AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"

Heb 3:12; Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Heb 3:13; But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14; For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Heb 3:15; while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
Heb 3:16; For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
Heb 3:17; And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18; And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
Heb 3:19; So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

John 10:28; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29; "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

No one can take you from Jesus, but you are free to leave on your own.
Also, no one can take them from Jesus, but Jesus Himself can cast them out on His own also.

John 15:6; "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

 

[B-A-C]

So it doesn't surprise me that folk have trouble believing that God's son is 100%
deserving of our confidence,

Jesus always does His part. But we have t do our part to.

Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

Only believers can become defiled. Unbelievers are already defiled.

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

It doesn't surprise me that some say grace covers everything.

 

[Beetow]

The Greek word translated "salvation" first appears in the New Testament at Luke
1:29 where it says:

"[The Lord] has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant
David."

Soteria (so-tay-ree'-ah) basically means to rescue and/or protect.

Well; the "horn" spoken of is of course none other than the babe away in a manger.

• Luke 2:10-11 . . And the angel said unto [the shepherds]: Fear not: for, behold, I
bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is
born this day in the city of David a savior, which is Christ the Lord.

The Greek word translated "savior" is soter (so-tare') which basically refers to a
rescuer, i.e. a knight in shining armor, so to speak.

Rescuing is what the Coast Guard does when boats capsize. Rescuing is what
Firemen do when people are trapped inside burning buildings. Rescuing is what
mountaineer teams do when climbers are in trouble. Rescuing is what EMT
paramedics do when someone needs to get to a hospital in a hurry; and kept alive
till they arrive. Rescuing is what surgeons do when someone needs an organ
transplant.

I could go on and on giving examples of rescuer after rescuer; but I think we get
the idea. Rescuers come to the aid of folk in very dire straits and utterly helpless to
do anything about it. For example:

Let's say that someone is a natural-born liar, or born with a natural predilection for
same-sex relationships. Well; according to Rev 21:8, those folks are a road to an
abyss from which they cannot, on their own, either avoid or evade. This is where
the babe in the manger becomes extremely helpful as he is in a position to rescue
those hopeless folk from their destiny with that abyss, and to provide them with
full-time, permanent protection from the wrath of God.

• 1Tim 2:6-6 . . For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the
man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men.
_

 

[Beetow]

• 1Tim 2:5-6 . . For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the
man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men.

Webster's defines ransoms as considerations paid or demanded for the release of
someone or something from captivity.

The technical meaning of the Greek word is redemption, which in the context of
Christianity means to release from blame or debt. For example:

One day at work, right out of the blue back in 1968, one of the men in the shop
asked me if I was going to Heaven when I die. Well; I was raised a Roman Catholic
and taught in catechism that nobody knows things like that; so I answered the man
that I hadn't a clue.

Then he asked: Haven't you heard that Christ died for you?

In the blink of an eye, faster than a speeding bullet, my mind instantly understood
that man was saying I was responsible to God for nothing, because whatever I had
to answer for was satisfied by Christ's crucifixion and God was in a position to grant
me a full and complete acquittal; not only for the sins I had already committed, but
also for the sins that I would be committing.

The angel's message on the night that baby Jesus was born is called "good news of
great joy" (Luke 2:10). Well; I whole-heartily agree with that description because
those of us for whom Heaven would normally be an impossibility; Christ's crucifixion
has placed it easily within our grasp.

• Isa 53:6 . .We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
way; and The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
_

 

[The Kreisel]

What part of you is currently 'Saved'?

Salvation is "Spirit, Soul and Body" as clearly stated in I Thess 5:23.
The Spirit must be born-again.
The Soul must be born-again.
The Body must be born-again.

The whole point of Jesus Christ was to reverse the curse of death that Adam brought, which is why Jesus was called "The Last Adam" - I Cor 15:45.

 

[complete]

This is true, it is 'ONE' of the things listed as a work.
But even if it was the 'ONLY' one... have you ever stopped to consider what believing in Jesus means?

Believing in Jesus doesn't just mean I believe there was a man named Jesus.
It means believing in all the things He said, taught, and did.

..and if you really believe the things He taught, .. things like repent or burn in hell.
Then you should be living like you believe it.

Hello @B-A-C,

It is God Who knows the secrets of My heart, and He knows what He has taught me, and the reception His word has had in my heart and life. He alone is capable of judging these things. So who are you to question either what I have imbibed, or what I am living out in my walk and witness?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

It is God Who knows the secrets of My heart, and He knows what He has taught me, and the reception His word has had in my heart and life. He alone is capable of judging these things. So who are you to question either what I have imbibed

I am not judging you, and nothing I have posted here has been specifically directed at you. But you are right, He alone is capable of judging us... and He will. I haven't said anything negative about you at all.

 

[complete]

I am not judging you, and nothing I have posted here has been specifically directed at you. But you are right, He alone is capable of judging us... and He will. I haven't said anything negative about you at all.

Hello @B-A-C,

I have known the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour since the age of 12 years (way back in 1960). I attended a Baptist chapel, an Evangelical Non-Denominational Chapel, and a House Group, and then a Congregational Chapel, before the Lord brought me out of the denominations when I was in my thirties. Bible study was, and is, my only source of spiritual food and drink, so I am not a novice. I realise the necessity to eat and drink of Christ, by reading, believing, digesting and appropriating all that is written in His Word.

He is my Saviour, my Lord and Head, and I want to glorify Him in my life and witness: and though my eyes see my failures, I know that. in Christ Jesus, God sees me as one that is 'complete' in Him, holy and without blame, because I am covered over with the righteousness that He has provided, and am accepted in His Beloved Son. What a miracle that is! All praise to the glory of His grace.

Thank you for the opportunity to testify to the power of the gospel of His grace.
Your sister in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Brad Huber]

'Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28)

Satan believes in Jesus.... and yet.... belief is more than acknowledgement

 

[complete]

Satan believes in Jesus.... and yet.... belief is more than acknowledgement

'I will bless the LORD at all times:
His praise shall continually be in my mouth.
My soul shall make her boast in the LORD:
the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.
O magnify the LORD with me,
and let us exalt His name together. '
(Psalm 34:1-3)

Hello @Brad Huber,

Yes, praise God! Belief is more than acknowledgement, for it is a work of God. We hear the word of God concerning His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and He gives us the grace to believe it. The seed of faith enters, takes root and grows in us, as God feeds and waters it daily through the administration of His Word: and we grow in confidence and assurance in the promise of God that we have in Christ Jesus our Lord. It is God's word, and He will continue to work within us until the day of Christ.

May His Name be praised!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Jesus always does His part. But we have t do our part to.

Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

Only believers can become defiled. Unbelievers are already defiled.

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

It doesn't surprise me that some say grace covers everything.

Hello B-A-C,

Reading @Bettow's post, in response to you, I don't believe that he intends for one minute to suggest that the sinner who has been saved by God's grace should use the grace of God as an opportunity for licentiousness,. on the contrary, it is the desire of the believer to walk worthy of the Lord, in gratitude and praise to the One Who stooped down and saved them, on the basis of the life of Christ that was laid down for them.

Thank you
Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[KingJ]

Threads like this inevitably lead to OSAS, Calvinism, Armenianism and other unpleasant things.

They are not all unpleasant. Calvinism implies God is partial. Armeniansim is keeping yourself saved. OSAS is trusting God's wisdom and His promises. One is correct and the other two heretical. If we can't trust God we are all in a bind.

But it seems like every thread out there has something about works.

You don't have to do much to get saved.
John 3:16; and Eph 2:8-9; are examples of how to get saved.
You can't earn it, you can't work for it. All you can do is accept it. It is up to you to choose to follow Jesus.

If this was true, we are all in a bind. Nobody can perfectly follow Jesus.

But the thief on the cross didn't do any works. He didn't sin after he received Jesus either, can you say that? On top of that Jesus hadn't ascended to heaven until sometime after He was resurrected. ( John 20:17; ) The thief was under the old covenant.

The thief lived for four hours on a cross. What sin could he have committed?

The significance of the salvation of the thief on the cross shouts OSAS. God judged the depth of intent of His heart and He passed. He had either a love for Jesus, approval of Jesus, hatred of what is wicked Rom 12:9 or true repentance Psalm 51:17.

Works and ''staying saved'' did not and does not apply in any way, shape or form.

You are reading scriptures from Paul and miss-interpreting them. Paul speaks to sins you will not find a Christian doing. We need to daily examine ourselves to ensure we are in Christ. Not to ensure we stay in Christ.

Then, in addition, a Christian ''stays in shape'' to ''run the race to win''. The race is to be as good an ambassador as possible for God not to ''stay saved''.

If we needed to stay saved, then God has shown partiality to the thief on the cross.

 

[KingJ]

... that is exactly my point. We don't "get" saved by doing works.

You do realise that saying we are ''saved by works'' is on par with saying ''we keep ourselves saved''?