Gentile salvation.

[agua]

Will any Gentiles before Jesus shed His blood at the Cross receive salvation?

Eph 2:13-16 NKJV But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (14) For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, (15) having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, (16) and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Jas 2:25-26 NKJV Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? (26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Will Rahab be resurrected to life or condemnation ?

Jos 2:8-13 NKJV Now before they lay down, she came up to them on the roof, (9) and said to the men: "I know that the LORD has given you the land, that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land are fainthearted because of you. (10) For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were on the other side of the Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. (11) And as soon as we heard these things, our hearts melted; neither did there remain any more courage in anyone because of you, for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath. (12) Now therefore, I beg you, swear to me by the LORD, since I have shown you kindness, that you also will show kindness to my father's house, and give me a true token, (13) and spare my father, my mother, my brothers, my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death."


She had great faith it seems.

 

[brakelite]

Another Gentile one might mention is Abraham....whom God said had kept his commandments, statutes and laws. Interesting, that God had laws hundreds of years before Sinai. Yet Abraham wasn't justified because of his obedience...he was justified because of his faith. And yet his obedience was still necessary, for without obedience and faith combined God could not have accomplished any of His promises.

 

[Kit Carson]

I would say yes. Just me, kinda what I feel. All things are possible with God.

Remember the Gentile woman that kept begging the disciples to give her an audience with Jesus as her daughter had an evil spirit? This was all before the Rise of Christ and people still lived with the law.
The disciples figured she was not worthy of salvation, or help and even Jesus used it to teach the dummies that she was.

So he sent the evil out of the ladies daughter and told her by her faith this was done.

So I would say anyone with faith and belief would be viewed with favor.

God is always the same, times may be different, cultures and traditions may be different, could be under the law or not,,,,,God is always the same.

So I would say yes, by faith. Just a simple answer, but seems to be what is in my heart.

Kit

 

[Eccl12v13]

Another Gentile one might mention is Abraham....

Where in God's word does it say that Abraham was a Gentile?

.

 

[Eccl12v13]

Will any Gentiles before Jesus shed His blood at the Cross receive salvation?

Being a Gentile or not has nothing to do with salvation. Let's read who it was that was delivered from Egypt and let's read how God veiwed them all.

Exod.12
[37] And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
[38] And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

So it was not just the nation of Israel that was delivered...there were other nations that departed Egypt along with the Israelites. Now let's read if God gave these "mixed multitude" of people a different set of laws to keep than what He gave the Israelites.

Exod.12
[48] And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
[49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15
[15] One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
[16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

So there was one law for ALL that choose to follow the true and living God. Let's continue....

[27] And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
[28] And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

Even for the forgiveness of sins was there ONE LAW for all. It didn't matter what nation you were from. According to God a sin is a sin, and what it takes to forgive sin, it takes the samething for ALL!

And was there a different punishment if one was not of the nation of Israel? Let's read...

[30] But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

So the person, ANY PERSON, that wilfully sinned were put to death; whether they were a stranger or an Israelite. Sounds fair to me.
Let’s read if this changed AFTER Jesus came and shed His blood.

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

So God does not have (2) standards. Whatever it took for the nation of Israel..it took the same for ANY stranger...whether they were a Gentile or from another nation of people. The punishment for sin did NOT change after the shedding of Jesus Blood. Now if the punishment remained the same, why would God change the requirement for salvation? He wouldn't!

Now let's confirm this. Let's see if those that died BEFORE Christ came to shed His blood had to do something different for salvation from those that came AFTER Christ shed His blood.

Ezek.18
[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Now we know what a sinner is. It is one that breaks the laws of God, which, according to God's inspired word, ALL have done. And the scriptures says he that sinneth shall die. Understand the death spoken of here is the second death., for everyone must die the first death. Now let's read what happens if the sinner, not just one from the nation of Israel, but ANY sinner turns from his ways, and stops breaking God's laws, or stop sinning;

[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Notice God did not say if just one from the nation of Israel stopped sinning he shall live. God's word simple says, "...if the WICKED will turn from his sins...."! That would include those of the nation of Israel, those of the nation of Gentiles, or those from ANY other nation of people!


What it took then and what it takes now for salvation is the SAME for EVERYONE; Israelite, Gentile, or ANY other nation of people!

"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

.

 

[brakelite]

Where in God's word does it say that Abraham was a Gentile?

.

Ge 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Gentiles referred to anyone who was not a child of Israel. Not Isaac even lest you would have to include Ishmael and his descendants as non-gentile. I think your average Jew would be horrified at that thought.

Abraham was a Chaldean, a Babylonian.

 

[brakelite]

Being a Gentile or not has nothing to do with salvation. Let's read who it was that was delivered from Egypt and let's read how God veiwed them all.

Exod.12
[37] And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
[38] And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

So it was not just the nation of Israel that was delivered...there were other nations that departed Egypt along with the Israelites. Now let's read if God gave these "mixed multitude" of people a different set of laws to keep than what He gave the Israelites.

Exod.12
[48] And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
[49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15
[15] One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
[16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

So there was one law for ALL that choose to follow the true and living God. Let's continue....

[27] And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
[28] And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

Even for the forgiveness of sins was there ONE LAW for all. It didn't matter what nation you were from. According to God a sin is a sin, and what it takes to forgive sin, it takes the samething for ALL!

And was there a different punishment if one was not of the nation of Israel? Let's read...

[30] But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

So the person, ANY PERSON, that wilfully sinned were put to death; whether they were a stranger or an Israelite. Sounds fair to me.
Let’s read if this changed AFTER Jesus came and shed His blood.

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

So God does not have (2) standards. Whatever it took for the nation of Israel..it took the same for ANY stranger...whether they were a Gentile or from another nation of people. The punishment for sin did NOT change after the shedding of Jesus Blood. Now if the punishment remained the same, why would God change the requirement for salvation? He wouldn't!

Now let's confirm this. Let's see if those that died BEFORE Christ came to shed His blood had to do something different for salvation from those that came AFTER Christ shed His blood.

Ezek.18
[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Now we know what a sinner is. It is one that breaks the laws of God, which, according to God's inspired word, ALL have done. And the scriptures says he that sinneth shall die. Understand the death spoken of here is the second death., for everyone must die the first death. Now let's read what happens if the sinner, not just one from the nation of Israel, but ANY sinner turns from his ways, and stops breaking God's laws, or stop sinning;

[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Notice God did not say if just one from the nation of Israel stopped sinning he shall live. God's word simple says, "...if the WICKED will turn from his sins...."! That would include those of the nation of Israel, those of the nation of Gentiles, or those from ANY other nation of people!


What it took then and what it takes now for salvation is the SAME for EVERYONE; Israelite, Gentile, or ANY other nation of people!

"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

.

Agreed. And other than those who had not the written law such as those Agua mentions from Romans 2, there are some who must have learned of the law in order to repent from sin, such as the Ninevites who repented at the preaching of Jonah.
Either way, whether they knew of the law or not, their obedience to it did not justify them, for all are under the condemnation of the law because all are sinners....strange theology that persists in believing that Israel was saved by the law in the old covenant and Christians by faith in the new. As you pointed out, all are saved by faith, whether Jew or Gentile whether today or 3000 years ago.

 

[Eccl12v13]

Ge 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Abraham was a Chaldean, a Babylonian.

How can Abraham, who was also called a Hebrew, ALSO be a Gentile?

A Gentile is NOT anyone other that an Israelite. A Gentile is a nation of people just as the Israelites are a nation of people. Gentiles come from the seed of Japheth, while Abraham comes from the seed of Shem.

Was Paul a Roman? No! So why was he called a Roman? Because he lived in Rome.

Acts 16
[37] But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out.
[38] And the serjeants told these words unto the magistrates: and they feared, when they heard that they were Romans.

But was Paul's nationality?

Rom.11
[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Today it is the same. Just as one who is Polish may live in America, they are still Polish, but are called Americans.

Abraham lived in many places....but he was NOT a Gentile!

.

 

[JonahofAkron]

Agreed. And other than those who had not the written law such as those Agua mentions from Romans 2, there are some who must have learned of the law in order to repent from sin, such as the Ninevites who repented at the preaching of Jonah.
Either way, whether they knew of the law or not, their obedience to it did not justify them, for all are under the condemnation of the law because all are sinners....strange theology that persists in believing that Israel was saved by the law in the old covenant and Christians by faith in the new. As you pointed out, all are saved by faith, whether Jew or Gentile whether today or 3000 years ago.

Amen!! Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[brakelite]

How can Abraham, who was also called a Hebrew, ALSO be a Gentile?

A Gentile is NOT anyone other that an Israelite. A Gentile is a nation of people just as the Israelites are a nation of people. Gentiles come from the seed of Japheth, while Abraham comes from the seed of Shem.


.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Does this passage mean then that only the descedants of Japheth can seek Christ?

 

[Kit Carson]

How can Abraham, who was also called a Hebrew, ALSO be a Gentile?

A Gentile is NOT anyone other that an Israelite. A Gentile is a nation of people just as the Israelites are a nation of people. Gentiles come from the seed of Japheth, while Abraham comes from the seed of Shem.

Was Paul a Roman? No! So why was he called a Roman? Because he lived in Rome.

Acts 16
[37] But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out.
[38] And the serjeants told these words unto the magistrates: and they feared, when they heard that they were Romans.

But was Paul's nationality?

Rom.11
[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Today it is the same. Just as one who is Polish may live in America, they are still Polish, but are called Americans.

Abraham lived in many places....but he was NOT a Gentile!

.

Acts Chapter 22, start at verse 22. Just got through reading it again.

Paul say I was born a Roman citizen. Not that it makes any difference at all. All this silly debate leads all in the wrong directions.

No matter who you are, Grace is given by God through his son. It is like a package under the Christmas tree, and God says if you open it I will give you grace. That is the whole message.
God is spirit and works by faith, pink purple, white, green, black, Jew, Gentile, alien, stargazer, all are given grace if they accept it.

Kit

 

[Eccl12v13]

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Does this passage mean then that only the descedants of Japheth can seek Christ?

Does it say, "To it shall the Gentiles (ONLY) seek."?

.

 

[Eccl12v13]

Acts Chapter 22, start at verse 22. Just got through reading it again.

Paul say I was born a Roman citizen. Not that it makes any difference at all. All this silly debate leads all in the wrong directions.

It was not a debate, I was just letting those reading know that a Gentile is NOT everybody else that is not of the nation of Israel.

A Gentile is a nation of people from the seed of Japheth.

Just as some people believe that everyone that is an Israelite is a Jew, but this is NOT the case.

Was Paul from the tribe of Judah? No! Paul was not a Jew in the true form of the word; He was of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom.11
[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Just because one is not an Israelite does not mean that they are a Gentile.
.


.

 

[gdemoss]

Will any Gentiles before Jesus shed His blood at the Cross receive salvation?

All bible references taken from KJV

Old Testament - Gentiles - גּוֹי

Translated as: nation 374, heathen 143, Gentiles 30, people 11

1. nation, people
   • nation, people
     1. usually of non-Hebrew people
     2. of descendants of Abraham
     3. of Israel
   • of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)
   • Goyim? = "nations"

In Genesis 10 we find the division of the nations. Gen 10:5 might cause some confusion as 'גּוֹי' is translated as 'Gentiles'. It would be less confusing had they translated it as 'nations' as they did in Gen 10:20 and Gen 10:31. This is especially seen clearly in Gen 10:32 where 'all' of Noah's children's descendants are referred to as 'גּוֹי'.

The term is also used of Israel, for example Isaiah 1:4.

New Testament - Gentiles - ἔθνος

Translated as: Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2

1. a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together
   • a company, troop, swarm
2. a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
   • the human family
3. a tribe, nation, people group
   
4. in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles
   
5. Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

New Testament - Gentile - Ἕλλην

Translated as: Greek 20, Gentile 7

1. a Greek either by nationality, whether a native of the main land or of the Greek islands or colonies
2. in a wider sense the name embraces all nations not Jews that made the language, customs, and learning of the Greeks their own; the primary reference is to a difference of religion and worship

Hopefully this will help to clear up any questions about who the Gentiles are.

Back to the question posed. We must first and foremost consider who we are talking about. God.

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" Rom 11:33

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God:
for with God all things are possible." Mk 10:27

I have often wondered about those who lived before the flood. Would any of them be saved? Some thoughts that I have had concerning them are centered on biblical evidence of the possibility.

1. Sin is not imputed where there is no law (Rom 5:13)
2. Death reigned from Adam to Moses by Adams sin alone (Rom 5:17)
3. In Adam all die but in Christ all will be made alive (1 Cor 15:22)

So far we have only one before Moses who actually sinned as a result of transgressing the law of God. Of course sin was running rampant but not being imputed as there was no law. In Adam all die physically but in Christ all will be ressurected, both the Just and the Unjust unto judgment. Thousands of years pass and we read nothing about those prior to the flood, then:

4. Christ was put to death and went and preached unto the spirits in prison that were disobedient in the days of Noah. (1 Pt 3:18-20)
5. The gospel was preached to the dead that they might be judged as men according to the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pt 4:6)

Once again we have to remember who we are dealing with, God.

He will have mercy on who he will have mercy on (Rom 9:15)

Example: Sodom

Truly wicked people that God chose to destroy with fire and brimstone. Could he not have saved them? Jesus told us that if the works that were done in Capernaum were done in Sodom that they would have still remained unto this day (Mt 11:23). You see, God knew that he could have sent someone with the right message to Sodom and straightened things out but deliberately chose to destroy them instead. What about us then? Are we better than they?

God did not have to have mercy upon a sinner like me. He chose to reveal his son unto me and then in me. He could have left me blinded and still have been a good God. He could have left me to burn in Hell and been righteous. Instead he enlisted me in his army. An ambassador sent out to do the ministry of reconciliation of God and man. One given the power to become a son of God. My only hope is that I may glorify him in all that I do and say.

Gary