Free Will Synergism Vs. Free Grace Monergism

[rojoloco]

Dear Mr evstevemd I am not sure whether you are aware. You posted your opinion. If you are tired of debate, you do not have to read it. Nor do you have to post your view on election.

This is not a personal debate. No one will be executed at the end of the debate. Rather it is interesting how others read the scripture.
What assumptions they hold. Why they emphasise particular facets of the scripture.
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Agreed. In fact, the only reason I replied was because he/she DID post their opinion on the matter. I am perfectly fine with one wanting to sit on the sidelines but, if they speak their mind, I have no problem replying to it. I find it to be great fun "debating" these things. I know we are all saved so long as we love/serve Christ as our Lord & Savior even if we disagree on some secondary matters.

 

[rojoloco]

Rojo there is nothing in the BLB lexicon you mentioned indicating "wishing" it merely references Strong's Greek dictionary. If you have any other sources please list them and substantiate your opinion.

The Strong's Concordance I posted from is obviously different from the BLB concordance. However, the usage of the term "wishing" is not in error as it is not referring to hopes and dreams as we think of wishing. It is not referring to wishing upon a star kind of wishing. It is referring to the sovereign will of God. Have you ever heard someone say "Lord willing" or "if the Lord wishes to do so?" It is in this line of speech that the term is being used.

Here is the lexicon I was using:

 

[David777]

Have you noticed the way we read the passages.

This is the startling conclusion, it is obvious. We read the Bible in a different way to one another.

No other explanation than a different view of the Soveriegnty of God.

In fact, the way God exercises His Soveriegnty is the real question?

On the far right of the scale of God's Soveriegnty. Man has no say, all thoughts are in fact God's will. Adam's fall was destined, etc.
This is fairly extreme, men are destined to go to hell for the Glory of God. No way I could ever accept this. This is repugnant.

Sliding the needle towards the left, is where Mr Rojocolo rests. Mr Rojocolo denies the absolute Soveriengty of God. But still chooses to hold to unconditional election. Is there a conflict here?

When the tyre hits the road, this is where theology slides.

You will of course resort to the unknowable ways of God.

This is the perfect escape.

I must press you on this point Mr Rojocolo.

Your doctrine on the Soveriengty of God dilutes the Soveriengty.

Baa, baa.

 

[rojoloco]

This is the startling conclusion, it is obvious. We read the Bible in a different way to one another.

No other explanation than a different view of the Soveriegnty of God.

In fact, the way God exercises His Soveriegnty is the real question?

On the far right of the scale of God's Soveriegnty. Man has no say, all thoughts are in fact God's will. Adam's fall was destined, etc.
This is fairly extreme, men are destined to go to hell for the Glory of God. No way I could ever accept this. This is repugnant.

Sliding the needle towards the left, is where Mr Rojocolo rests. Mr Rojocolo denies the absolute Soveriengty of God. But still chooses to hold to unconditional election. Is there a conflict here?

When the tyre hits the road, this is where theology slides.

You will of course resort to the unknowable ways of God.

This is the perfect escape.

I must press you on this point Mr Rojocolo.

Your doctrine on the Soveriengty of God dilutes the Soveriengty.

Baa, baa.

Actually, I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God. I wouldn't say I am to the left at all in that field. However, I do not believe in hard determinism either. I believe in the doctrine of Compatibility. It retains God's absolute sovereignty in all things (absolute control and not just ability to control) but also holds man responsible for his actions.

 

[David777]

Mans responsibility?

Please explain man's responsilibility?

How do you reconcile man's responsibility with the Soveriengty of God?

If God has predetermined election, then it does not matter what you think or do, you are chosen, saved.

Let's be serious Mr Rojocolo. If you are chosen this is not retractable, this is God's will. Nothing you can do or say will change this. Man's responsibility? Perhaps, better said, responsibility of the elect?

This is a definite conflict in ideas.

 

[evstevemd]

Because God has commanded us to. Need we any better reason?



If left to us, we would freely choose Hell but no man will ever choose the way of righteousness out of his own doing.



It says whosoever believes. It does not say everybody has an equal opportunity to believe. While I believe everybody has an equal opportunity, I do not believe anybody has the ability unless God opens their eyes to the Truth. Again, man freely chooses Hell but no man will ever choose Heaven. The only one who will ever do this is one who has first been regenerated by the Spirit, quickened by the Spirit, and compelled by the Spirit. You quoted John 3:16 but failed to read just 4 verses down to verse 20 where it tells you plain as day that while whoever believes can be saved, no man will believe on his own.

Imagine being in a crowd of people who are loving life and abhor the thought of suicide. If I set up a noose and tell them whoever steps up to the rope will be hanged, how many people will do it? Obviously stepping up to the rope is the only way to be hanged and this will certainly happen if they do it. The opportunity is there. However, we both know that none of them will step up because they hate the very thought of it. Whosoever steps to the plate will receive their hanging yet no man will step to the plate because he hates the noose.



And this makes God a bystander who watches things as they happen with no hand in the mix. Thankfully, I trust God to accomplish His task even if others try to subdue His plans. I am also thankful that I do not work for Him in my own power but trust that He will work through me (Philippians 2:13).

I guess you can make Bible say anything by using this logic of yours!
God made free agents and not robots. Adam sinned by himself, God didn't predestine that, You sin, I sin and God didn't predestine that. God always puts life and death and says Choose. How can anyone choose if their fate is sealed?

Bible teaches we are free to choose heaven or earth, that God knows our choices already period! God does not 'predestine' anyone to hell. Then I will not worship that kind of 'god' as loving. Love without choice is not love at all but slavery!

 

[evstevemd]

friends, this stains God's character; so be careful with 'discussions'

 

[evstevemd]

Please explain man's responsilibility?

How do you reconcile man's responsibility with the Soveriengty of God?

If God has predetermined election, then it does not matter what you think or do, you are chosen, saved.

Let's be serious Mr Rojocolo. If you are chosen this is not retractable, this is God's will. Nothing you can do or say will change this. Man's responsibility? Perhaps, better said, responsibility of the elect?

This is a definite conflict in ideas.

Plus why loose resources preaching to people who are not elects?:shock:

 

[rojoloco]

I guess you can make Bible say anything by using this logic of yours!
God made free agents and not robots. Adam sinned by himself, God didn't predestine that, You sin, I sin and God didn't predestine that. God always puts life and death and says Choose. How can anyone choose if their fate is sealed?

Bible teaches we are free to choose heaven or earth, that God knows our choices already period! God does not 'predestine' anyone to hell. Then I will not worship that kind of 'god' as loving.

You are absolutely correct. God did not make robots. Adam DID sin by his own choosing. We are quite good at that. God does NOT predestine anyone to Hell. We go there all on our own. He does, however, predestine some to Heaven. To send some to Hell would be wrong. To choose to save some out of the many that are already going there may seem unfair to us but, in reality, even choosing to save one is the most loving act ever because none of us deserve it. How can you truly claim saving some but not all is unloving when even Jesus did not doubt the Father's love when it was the Father who sent him to the cross? Think about it in that perspective for a bit. God says choose but it never says man is capable of it. The Old Testament Law was not put in place to show that man could be holy but to show that man was incapable of fulfilling it. This is the purpose of Christ. He fulfilled what we couldn't even though we were commanded to do so. In the exact same way, we are incapable of choosing God despite the fact that He tells us to simply because our very unregenerated natures do not allow us to because we hate Him by nature and would never choose Him. We gladly choose anything but Him because it is all our nature knows and our nature drives our desires.

Love without choice is not love at all but slavery!

That is EXACTLY what we are to God. We are His slaves. Like it or not, look at the Greek word doulos. It is used 127 times in 119 verses in the New Testament. The Hebrew word is [ebed[/i] and is used 800 times in 714 verses in the Old Testament. They both literally mean slave. It is not the same as a servant (though you will see that as a secondary definition because of our modern understanding of salves and servants) because a servant is still free to himself while serving his master. A slave had no freedom and was completely owned by his master. We are not our own. We were bought with a price and that price was the blood of our Savior Jesus Christ. We are indeed slaves to Christ but we should be so thankful to have such a kind master that He rescued us from eternal darkness and suffering.

 

[rojoloco]

Plus why loose resources preaching to people who are not elects?:shock:

Because I have no idea who the Elect are. Once again, it is because God commanded us to. Need we a better reason? It is not my job to save people. It is my duty to obey my Master and do what He has commanded me.

 

[rojoloco]

Please explain man's responsilibility?

How do you reconcile man's responsibility with the Soveriengty of God?

If God has predetermined election, then it does not matter what you think or do, you are chosen, saved.

Let's be serious Mr Rojocolo. If you are chosen this is not retractable, this is God's will. Nothing you can do or say will change this. Man's responsibility? Perhaps, better said, responsibility of the elect?

This is a definite conflict in ideas.

I'll post 2 different things here for you to read. One of them is from a FAQ on monergism.com and the other is a sermon I wrote a while back.

What does the term “compatibilism” mean, and is it biblical? “Compatibilism” is a term which describes the concurrent non-contradictory existence of the two truths we have been discussing above: God's active sovereignty and governance over every event that takes place on earth, and man's responsibility for his actions and freedom (i.e. voluntary choice) to follow his natural desires (which since the fall are wholly corrupt) apart from external coercion. Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence over all events is "compatible" with voluntary choice. These concepts are both true and biblical, and hence, they are not at odds with each other, but are fully “compatible”.

Not only is the teaching of compatibilism biblical, it is the only solution to the so-called “free will problem” that scriptures allow. The bible teaches, first, that God does not lie, or contradict himself (Hebrews 6:18); second, that God ordains everything that comes to pass (see question 43); and third, that man is fully responsible for his wicked actions, and will suffer eternal punishment for them unless he is given the free grace of God in Christ (Jam 1:13-15; Rev 20:11-15; Rom 2:5-6). Hence, the bible demands that God's active sovereignty and man's real choice and responsibility do not contradict each other, or else God would be a liar, or the author of confusion. Whether we can comprehend the way in which the truths co-exist harmoniously is relatively minor; what matters is that we take God at his word, and believe that these two eminently biblical teachings are in fact compatible with each other.

And here is the sermon I wrote on the subject:

Choose Responsibly

Tonight’s lesson is going to cover quite a bit regarding the sovereignty of God. In particular, we are going to go over man’s role in regards to the sovereignty of God. There are 3 basic positions on the subject.

1) If man has free will, God cannot truly be sovereign
2) If God is sovereign, man cannot be held accountable for his actions as he has no free will
3) God is sovereign yet man is still accountable for his actions

I cling to the 3rd option. By the end of this lesson, it is my hope that all of you will as well. Before we get into man, we must begin with God. We know God is sovereign because the Scriptures tell us so. Before we go into the Scriptural backing, let’s define sovereign. Dictionary.com defines sovereign as “having supreme rank, power, or authority.”

Psalm 103:19
The LORD has established His throne in the heavens,
And His sovereignty rules over all.

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Job 42:2
I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.

2 Chronicles 20:6
and he said, "O LORD, the God of our fathers, are You not God in the heavens? And are You not ruler over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in Your hand so that no one can stand against You.

We can clearly see that God is in control at all times. All things work after the counsel of His will according to His purpose and His purpose can never be thwarted.

John Piper
It is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things but that He does so always and without exception.

This sovereignty flows into all areas. Nothing escapes it. Psalm 103:19 said His sovereignty rules over all.

Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the LORD.

Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

Psalm 135:6-7
Whatever the LORD pleases, He does,
In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
Who makes lightnings for the rain,
Who brings forth the wind from His treasuries.

Galatians 1:15-16a
But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles

Most people don’t take issue with the teaching of God’s sovereignty so long as it is spoken of in these terms. Up until now, all the verses have been describing God and leaving man out of the picture. Man naturally likes to live a guilt free life. Nobody likes a buzz kill. It is unfortunate that, even in the Church, God is viewed as sovereign so long He does not interfere with our own free will. This concept is unbiblical. Not only does heaven and earth fall under the sovereignty of God but so do we as people. The Lord rules over all things; even mankind.

Acts 2:23
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Even the crucifixion was ordained by God. Notice what is taking place in the verse above. It says that godless men will put him to death. Godless men will nail him to a cross. Both of these things imply man will make the choice to perform a wicked act. However, take note that it only takes place because of the predetermined plan of God. It also speaks of His foreknowledge. Don’t be confused. God didn’t ordain His plan based on choices He knew man would make. Rather, He knew the choices man would make because He foreordained it to be so.

Acts 4:27-28
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

This just drives home the previous point. Both Herod and Pontius Pilate had gathered together to go against Christ. In fact, they were not alone. It says the Gentiles and people of Israel had gathered as well. There were countless people rising up against Christ. This was of their own doing and their own choices. They had made the decision to put Jesus to death for his claims. Again, however, notice that it says they were only doing whatever God’s hand and purpose had predestined to occur. While they were making their own choices in life, there was only one way it would play out. God had decreed it to be so and that was the end of it.

Another example in Scripture of God’s sovereignty mixing with man’s choices is in the story of Joseph.

Genesis 37:18-22
When they saw him from a distance and before he came close to them, they plotted against him to put him to death. They said to one another, "Here comes this dreamer! "Now then, come and let us kill him and throw him into one of the pits; and we will say, 'A wild beast devoured him.' Then let us see what will become of his dreams!" But Reuben heard this and rescued him out of their hands and said, "Let us not take his life." Reuben further said to them, "Shed no blood. Throw him into this pit that is in the wilderness, but do not lay hands on him"--that he might rescue him out of their hands, to restore him to his father.

This entire discussion is between Joseph’s brothers. There discussion is not being coerced or pushed in any direction. It is not being moderated. They are freely coming up with a plan to murder Joseph. At the same time, Reuben takes it upon himself to talk them into sparing his life and throwing him into a dry ditch instead. On the surface, it appears they are free to do as they wished with nothing else to lean on other than their own desires. While it is true that they were coming up with this plan on their own, there is more to the story.

Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Joseph was rescued, sold into slavery, and eventually took on a prestigious position under the pharaoh. None of this was by accident. Scripture is clear that God had a plan and that plan was good.

Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

While Joseph’s brothers were free in the choices they made and the actions they took, they only made these choices because God had decreed it to be so. God is always in charge. Sometimes he actively takes part in an event such as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah whereas most times, He allows man to freely make decisions and choices. However, even when left to freely make decisions, they are always within the constraints of God’s sovereign plan and purpose.

Ask congregation if they believe God’s sovereignty is limited in any way.
Ask congregation if they believe God’s sovereignty is limited in salvation.

A.W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God
To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the vast majority of men will not let Him save them, is to imply that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent.

Acts 13:48b
and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

While I firmly believe salvation falls under the sovereign decrees of God, I don’t intend on getting into a lesson on God’s Election tonight. While it is true that only those whom God has called unto Himself will respond to the call of Christ, I want to focus on those whom He does not call unto Himself. Are these men condemned because of God? Should they be given a free pass? Can they possibly be guilty if they were never given a fair chance or opportunity? No, no, and yes!

While they are indeed condemned, it is certainly not because of God. These men will never choose Christ because God has ordained that they will not but this does not mean God is responsible. Each man is still held accountable for his actions as we saw earlier in the cases of the crucifixion as well as Joseph. There is no free pass to be given because each man is guilty to begin with. The term used to describe man’s responsibility despite God’s sovereignty is compatibilism.

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

John 9:41
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

We can see a clear distinction being taught between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. While there is no doubt that God is sovereign and all things only come to pass because He ordained it to be so, it is equally as true that man makes his own choices without being forced. His choice will always be the outcome that God decreed but man will gladly make it. This is because man is bound by his nature and that nature is wretched and fallen.

Genesis 8:21b
for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth;

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?

John 3:19
This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

John 3:20a
For everyone who does evil hates the Light

We simply follow our nature. Before salvation, Romans tells us we were slaves to sin. We had to choice but to give our all to sin. However, this was not a grudging state as we did it with pleasure. Our hearts were evil. Our hearts were deceitful. Our deeds were evil and we hated the Light. We hid from the Light lest our evil deeds should be exposed (John 3:20). Our natural inclination was to sin. We were in bondage to sin but we enjoyed every minute of it. This is why we are still found guilty for our sins despite following God’s sovereignly decreed plan.

Romans 6:22-23a
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death,

While once enslaved to sin, we are now enslaved to God. The unregenerate man, despite being in full accord with God’s sovereign decrees, is still found guilty and deserves death. He works as a slave to sin and, as a result, he will be paid death for wages. It is what we all deserved as we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Thankfully, God chose us and called us unto Himself. This does not make us perfect but it does make us His own. When we sin, we are covered by the blood of Christ.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

We still sin daily in our battle with the flesh but we will not see Hell for it. We have been justified by the blood of Christ. His blood alone has fully atoned for our sins. There is no more debt. The blood was substitutionary.

Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Just because we are covered by the blood does not mean we are to abuse our justification. Paul makes it very clear that we are not to sin so that the grace we fall under may increase. We are free from sinning. This is where we differ from the unregenerate man. We have a new nature in Christ whereas he does not.

Ask congregation if they love God.
Ask congregation if they feel they are being forced to love Him unwillingly.

Just as we love God and desire to serve Him with all we have so does the unregenerate man hate God and desires to hide from the Light. Even if an unsaved individual says he is not at war with anyone, his refusal to submit to the authority of God proves otherwise. A man cannot serve two masters (Matthew 6:24). He is either for God or he is against God (Matthew 12:30). Both sides serve their masters willingly yet both sides do so only because God has declared and ordained it to be so. God is sovereign yet we are responsible.

John Calvin, Bondage and Liberation of the Will
…we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man’s innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.

 

[David777]

Phew.

Massive post. Read it. Have to read it again and again.
If you insist on "massive posts" you will have to wait for my reply.
Some of these points require considerable thought and contextual reference. Be patient, I will reply, just not soon.
Over and out.

 

[evstevemd]

You are absolutely correct. God did not make robots. Adam DID sin by his own choosing. We are quite good at that. God does NOT predestine anyone to Hell. We go there all on our own. He does, however, predestine some to Heaven. To send some to Hell would be wrong. To choose to save some out of the many that are already going there may seem unfair to us but, in reality, even choosing to save one is the most loving act ever because none of us deserve it. How can you truly claim saving some but not all is unloving when even Jesus did not doubt the Father's love when it was the Father who sent him to the cross? Think about it in that perspective for a bit. God says choose but it never says man is capable of it. The Old Testament Law was not put in place to show that man could be holy but to show that man was incapable of fulfilling it. This is the purpose of Christ. He fulfilled what we couldn't even though we were commanded to do so. In the exact same way, we are incapable of choosing God despite the fact that He tells us to simply because our very unregenerated natures do not allow us to because we hate Him by nature and would never choose Him. We gladly choose anything but Him because it is all our nature knows and our nature drives our desires.



That is EXACTLY what we are to God. We are His slaves. Like it or not, look at the Greek word doulos. It is used 127 times in 119 verses in the New Testament. The Hebrew word is [ebed[/i] and is used 800 times in 714 verses in the Old Testament. They both literally mean slave. It is not the same as a servant (though you will see that as a secondary definition because of our modern understanding of salves and servants) because a servant is still free to himself while serving his master. A slave had no freedom and was completely owned by his master. We are not our own. We were bought with a price and that price was the blood of our Savior Jesus Christ. We are indeed slaves to Christ but we should be so thankful to have such a kind master that He rescued us from eternal darkness and suffering.

I don't agree we are slaves in the first place. Before knowing and accepting Christ we are enemies. After reconcile with God we are Children and ambassadors (servants), period!

As for God predestine some to heaven still is making someone a robot by making a choice for Him. Suppose I want to go to hell (which I don't anyway), and God predestine me to heaven, then where is my choice? am I not a puppet with God pulling the strings?

 

[David777]

First part.

My friend, you said
------------------------------------------------------
1) If man has free will, God cannot truly be sovereign
-------------------------------------------------------

Number 1) God can be Sovereign and man can have free will.

"Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God" Mark 10:27

All things are possible with God, this is the key point.

Our problem is being able to understand, just how does this creation interact with an obviously Sovereign God.

Our only option of course is God's written word.

A further problem is immediately encountered. Does God provide sufficient information for us to answer this question. Or is the written word's purpose a pure revelation. A revelation of Jesus Christ, the reconciliation of mankind to God.

How does the Holy Spirit influence this human choice?

How does Jesus in fact draw all men to himself?

I sometimes have to work hard when I read the scripture.

I do notice that God's plan was Sovereign regarding Jesus Christ.

God did select certain individuals through Jewish history for the purpose of His plan.

This is beyond question.

But, is this seperate from the revelation that Paul makes clear. The reconciliation of the two groups, Jew and Gentile. Does God employ mercy and compassion, even Love (John 3:16) towards the human race. This is one of the main problems with just how does God exert His sovereignty.

God may seperate these two processes, be careful.

For examples sake, when God hardened Pharohs heart. Did this affect Pharoh's election, we are not told. It was done to amplify God's power, to make His presence felt around the World, etc.

Just what does Free Will mean, in light of the Holy Spirits powerful conviction. How do you explain this.

Another problem is encountered with individual election and Sovereignty.

This is what deeply concerns me about Romans 8:29-30. Is this in fact referring to the spiritual Israel. If it is then it is not speaking about individual election. Same for Ephesians 1. Romans 11:2 deepens the problem for individual election. Check it out.

I don't apologise Mr Rojocolo for being deeply concerned. I am hesitant to adopt any theological position at all. It is far to risky to push sovereignty too far, risking over running that God may have allowed choice to be made. Choice for or against Christ.

I repeat, God's power is beyond question.

Defining God's and man's roles in this reconciliation and just how this unfolds. Is an exceedingly difficult process.

But you have to agree (which you will not) that both ideas in 1) are possible. Not necessary for them to be mutually exclusive.

 

[rojoloco]

Massive post. Read it. Have to read it again and again.
If you insist on "massive posts" you will have to wait for my reply.
Some of these points require considerable thought and contextual reference. Be patient, I will reply, just not soon.
Over and out.

No problem. I try to avoid massive posts but I felt this was an acceptable time to make one. I know we don't have all the time in the world to spend on here replying so feel free to take your time. In fact, jiggyfly just sent me a PM reminding me of a thread I accidentally let slip away that I still need to get back to. lol

 

[David777]

Yo

Appreciate that Mr Rojocolo. This is an extremely tough area.
It does take time, reading, thinking, prayer.
We all make mistakes.
In Christ.

 

[rojoloco]

I don't agree we are slaves in the first place. Before knowing and accepting Christ we are enemies. After reconcile with God we are Children and ambassadors (servants), period!

Oh, really?

For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

The Bible clearly tells us we were bought with a price and that we are now slaves to Christ. It is a concept that the high and lofty despise while the humble are grateful for. For everybody in between, it is almost a taboo subject.

As for God predestine some to heaven still is making someone a robot by making a choice for Him. Suppose I want to go to hell (which I don't anyway), and God predestine me to heaven, then where is my choice? am I not a puppet with God pulling the strings?

You're still not getting it. No man wants anything to do with God unless God gives that man a new heart with a new desire. Salvation is of God from beginning to end.

Here is a passage out of John MacArthur's new book titled Slave. It really is an amazing and insightful book. Where it has Scripture references, I'll go ahead and post all the verses at the end so you don't have to look them up. I know a lot of people don't bother to look up the verses for confirmation and to refuse to do so on a topic this important would be a mistake.

As those chosen by God, believers were "purchased with [Christ's] own blood" (acts 20:28), predestined to be freed from slavery to sin and ushered into the household of God. He pursued us even though we did not seek Him, drawing us to Himself and snatching us from the clutches and condemnation of sin. Like Paul, we were "laid hold of by Christ Jesus" (Philippians 3:12), becoming His willing captives, His joyful prisoners, and part of the people for His own possession. We are those who belong to Him, not because we chose Him but because He chose us.

But unlike the Romans slave market -- where slaves were selected based on their positive qualities, like strength, health, and physical appearance -- God chose His slaves with the full knowledge of their weaknesses and failures. We "were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong" (1 Corinthians 1:26-27). Indeed, He mercifully elected us to salvation in spite of ourselves, saving us -- not because of any inherent goodness in us -- but according to His own eternal purposes and for the sake of His glory.

The New Testament is replete with examples of God's electing and initiating work in salvation. In John 15:16, Jesus told His disciples, "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." In Acts 2:39, Peter emphasized that the promise of salvation extended to "as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." Acts 13:48 reports that, in response to Paul's missionary work among the Gentiles, "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." A couple chapters later, we learn that Lydia believed only after "the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14). In each instance, it was God who did the work of choosing, calling, appointing, and opening the heart. Such is still the case whenever a soul is saved, for the new birth always comes, not by "the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13).

God's will in salvation is singular, dependent on nothing other than His uninfluenced, free, electing choice. Therefore, the Holy Spirit works where He wills, the Son gives life to whomever He wishes, and unless the Father draws them, unbelievers cannot come to Christ. When we were bound in our sins, the Son set us free (John 8:36). When we were blinded by unbelief, God "shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6). When we were dead in our trespasses and sins, He "made us alive together with Christ" (Ephesians 2:5). He is the one who initiated every aspect of the work of salvation in our hearts, such that we can take no credit for anything in our salvation. All the glory goes to Him.

In salvation, the triune God sovereignly acts upon those whom He wills to rescue, imparting life to dead hearts and sight to darkened minds. Salvation, then, "does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16). Just as we did not choose to be born in the physical sense, so we did not choose to be born from above (John 3:3-8).

Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--

Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and also Barnabas's cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,

who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To Philemon our beloved brother and fellow worker,

yet for love's sake I rather appeal to you--since I am such a person as Paul, the aged, and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus--

Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you,

But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

 

[evstevemd]

It is you who is not getting it!
1. We are not puppets and God is not pulling string on us, so we've got a choice!
Check bolded and tell me what it means:
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2. We are servants and Never slaves:

1Co 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.


Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

We have greater value than mere slave!

 

[rojoloco]

It is you who is not getting it!
1. We are not puppets and God is not pulling string on us, so we've got a choice!

Of course we have a choice. The problem is that we will ALWAYS, without fail, choose sin for we are incapable of choosing God.

Check bolded and tell me what it means:
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It says whosoever believes will have eternal life. Take note that it does not list who will believe any more than it says one is capable of believing. It simply says, if one believes, he will receive eternal life. As I stated earlier, if one steps up to the rope, he will surely be hanged. Does this imply a man who loves his life will step up to the rope or just that death by rope exists? Just because something exists does not mean it is feasible. We are called to be holy just as God is holy. Does this mean we can actually be as holy as God? Certainly not! However, by your interpretation of John 3:16, you are compelled to admit it is possible. If you say it is not, you are compelled to admit John 3:16 does not necessarily imply a possibility either. You can't accept one yet forsake the other because the same logic applies to both.

2. We are servants and Never slaves:

Did you know it is mainly in English translations where the meaning of doulos was lost in translation? The most common use of that word was a literal slave. It was used in Scripture that way just as it was used in history as that way. You are ignoring the Greek for the sake of your own belief instead of forming your belief based on the original Greek.

1Co 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Once again, you are relying on an English translation while ignoring the Greek. There is no denying that we are called prisoners of Christ. I don't know too many servants (men of their own mind and free will that only serve as a job) who are prisoners to their Master. Furthermore, it says we were bought with a price. Servants were paid wages yet they retained their freedom. They were never bought. Going even further, it compares us as being slaves to sin as well as slaves to Christ when it tells us he rescued us from being a slave to sin and now he owns us. We are His prisoner. We are His slave. We are bought by Him. We are His possession. To do away with the doctrine of being His slave means you must also do away with the doctrine of being His possession and His prisoner. Are you sure you are ready to take on that task because I think you will be hard pressed. Even if you do not want to accept the word "slave" as being the translation of doulos (even though that was its most common use), you still cannot ignore the other descriptions. Prisoners are not servants of their own freedom. Furthermore, servants are not a possession of anyone but themselves because they are free. If they are not free, they are owned by someone. If they are owned by someone, they are a slave. Cut and dry.

We have greater value than mere slave!

A slave often had great value. It all depended on whether the master was caring or brutal. We were once owned by the worst master of all; sin and death. We were bought with a price by our new Master who is the most loving and caring of all. He owns us. We are His slaves. However, He has also put us in high regard just as many kind masters did with their slaves in those times. Many slaves even ran the master's business and dressed in high class clothing making them indistinguishable from free men. It is your understanding of the slave system based on what is taught in schools about our past that has tainted your ability to understand the Biblical doctrine of being slaves of Christ.

 

[evstevemd]

Very funny that God will hide everything in Greek knowing that many of his people me included does not know Greek! Interesting.
As for other points, God does not predestine anybody to heaven or hell, that is plain meaning of choice. We are servants and never slaves. That is what plain Bible reading shows. Period!