FOR ALL WHO THINK THERE IS ONLY ONE CHURCH

[RRLeath]

Please show me the scripture that makes you say there is just one church in the Bible and who our apostle(

Please show me the scripture that makes you say there is just one church in the Bible and who our apostle(s) are

DougE, I was raised in the Hyper-Dispensationalist Grace Movement. Many years later God has shown me the truth about that group I was indeed a participant in for over 40 years. Understand, that Paul, because of his background- a learned man and Pharisee, a citizen of Rome, was an extension to the original 12 to preach the same Gospel of Jesus Christ crucified and build churches in Rome. He was building churches and teaching baby believers...with milk. Paul taught from the Old Testament, because, naturally there wasn't a New T. He told Timothy to do the same-ALL SCRIPTURE is profitable. The "Jews" were descendants of one tribe; Judah. Israel are the descendants of all 12 Tribes and they are not in a literal sense "Jews." Any people group outside of Judaic Jews are gentiles.The Church that Jesus Christ started and built with the help of his apostles and later Paul to minister to the gentiles of all nations, including the various tribes of Israel is ONE CHURCH. This was God's plan from the beginning. His plan was not divided or fractionated with loose ends here and there. Paul told us that there is no longer Jew or Gentile. We are now all one in Christ Jesus. The Old Covenant (that converged into the New...the blood of Christ,) isn't "dead" - any believing Jew will inherit their promised land just as all believers will, Jew or Gentile. When you read anything in the Bible, Old or New, regarding God's chosen we are all included. God does not operate on a timeline...he sees everything as current - not split up by time. Another reason you cannot separate people groups is because you don't know who you are. The Israelites, all 12 tribes, were scattered and sifted into every nation. Just as God promised Abraham, they are as numerous as dust or stars...you can't count them. Very few true Jews actually live in the the real estate called Israel. You don't know after thousands of years later what tribe or son of Noah you descended from. God sorts that all out for us at the end. Satan has blinded the eyes and cast a spell on the Grace movement...I know because I was part of the deceived. Read and learn your Bible...all of it! To throw it all out except Paul's letters (and even discount many things he himself taught) is great deception from the enemy. If you think you are saved by grace and not accountable to the teachings of Christ or the apostles- you want his gift but ignore Jesus himself, I will be bold enough to say you may not be saved. A true believer loves the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart, mind and soul! The apostle Paul certainly did! In that way Paul is an example to me. I will pray that your eyes will opened as mine were.

 

[DougE]

DougE, I was raised in the Hyper-Dispensationalist Grace Movement. Many years later God has shown me the truth about that group I was indeed a participant in for over 40 years. Understand, that Paul, because of his background- a learned man and Pharisee, a citizen of Rome, was an extension to the original 12 to preach the same Gospel of Jesus Christ crucified and build churches in Rome. He was building churches and teaching baby believers...with milk. Paul taught from the Old Testament, because, naturally there wasn't a New T. He told Timothy to do the same-ALL SCRIPTURE is profitable. The "Jews" were descendants of one tribe; Judah. Israel are the descendants of all 12 Tribes and they are not in a literal sense "Jews." Any people group outside of Judaic Jews are gentiles.The Church that Jesus Christ started and built with the help of his apostles and later Paul to minister to the gentiles of all nations, including the various tribes of Israel is ONE CHURCH. This was God's plan from the beginning. His plan was not divided or fractionated with loose ends here and there. Paul told us that there is no longer Jew or Gentile. We are now all one in Christ Jesus. The Old Covenant (that converged into the New...the blood of Christ,) isn't "dead" - any believing Jew will inherit their promised land just as all believers will, Jew or Gentile. When you read anything in the Bible, Old or New, regarding God's chosen we are all included. God does not operate on a timeline...he sees everything as current - not split up by time. Another reason you cannot separate people groups is because you don't know who you are. The Israelites, all 12 tribes, were scattered and sifted into every nation. Just as God promised Abraham, they are as numerous as dust or stars...you can't count them. Very few true Jews actually live in the the real estate called Israel. You don't know after thousands of years later what tribe or son of Noah you descended from. God sorts that all out for us at the end. Satan has blinded the eyes and cast a spell on the Grace movement...I know because I was part of the deceived. Read and learn your Bible...all of it! To throw it all out except Paul's letters (and even discount many things he himself taught) is great deception from the enemy. If you think you are saved by grace and not accountable to the teachings of Christ or the apostles- you want his gift but ignore Jesus himself, I will be bold enough to say you may not be saved. A true believer loves the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart, mind and soul! The apostle Paul certainly did! In that way Paul is an example to me. I will pray that your eyes will opened as mine were.

any believing Jew will inherit their promised land just as all believers will,........... are you saying a believing Jew today inherits the millennial kingdom?

What are the implications if we are part of the lost tribes? Do we in the body of Christ get the earthly kingdom?

 

[DougE]

If you think you are saved by grace and not accountable to the teachings of Christ or the apostles- you want his gift but ignore Jesus himself,

So if you are saying we have to keep all Jesus commandments do you obey these?

[Matthew 5:18 KJV] "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
[Matthew 5:19 KJV] "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

[Luke 14:33 KJV] "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

 

[RRLeath]

So if you are saying we have to keep all Jesus commandments do you obey these?

[Matthew 5:18 KJV] "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
[Matthew 5:19 KJV] "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

[Luke 14:33 KJV] "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

We are free from obeying the law as far as salvation/atonement for our sin....because we are "saved" by Grace! But as Jesus (who is God) said in the verses you posted we are to teach them and be accountable to living Godly lives by living in obedience to them. That should be every true Christian's desire! Keeping in mind..the Mosaic laws...purity laws, food laws, circumcision etc were nullified. Paul and Peter showed us that but the big Ten and all Jesus's teachings were to establish Godly humble members of his new found church. Paul in establishing the gentile churches, taught exactly what Jesus himself taught.

 

[RRLeath]

any believing Jew will inherit their promised land just as all believers will,........... are you saying a believing Jew today inherits the millennial kingdom?

What are the implications if we are part of the lost tribes? Do we in the body of Christ get the earthly kingdom?

Remember what Paul said- No longer Jew or Gentile. A Jew today is saved by the blood of Christ. We will all inherit the promised land together. As far as the Kingdom age how will those that survive the Great Tribulation know who they are? It will be people from all tribes and nations worldwide.

 

[DougE]

Remember what Paul said- No longer Jew or Gentile. A Jew today is saved by the blood of Christ. We will all inherit the promised land together. As far as the Kingdom age how will those that survive the Great Tribulation know who they are? It will be people from all tribes and nations worldwide.

Where does Paul say we inherit the land?

 

[DougE]

We are free from obeying the law as far as salvation/atonement for our sin....because we are "saved" by Grace! But as Jesus (who is God) said in the verses you posted we are to teach them and be accountable to living Godly lives by living in obedience to them. That should be every true Christian's desire! Keeping in mind..the Mosaic laws...purity laws, food laws, circumcision etc were nullified. Paul and Peter showed us that but the big Ten and all Jesus's teachings were to establish Godly humble members of his new found church. Paul in establishing the gentile churches, taught exactly what Jesus himself taught.

So what you are contending makes no sense
You say we have to obey the law, but not obey it because they have been nullified

What about this verse ********* [Matthew 19:29 KJV] "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." ********* So have you forsaken all? or has that been nullified as well?

 

[RRLeath]

So what you are contending makes no sense
You say we have to obey the law, but not obey it because they have been nullified

What about this verse ********* [Matthew 19:29 KJV] "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." ********* So have you forsaken all? or has that been nullified as well?

In John 14 Jesus said those that love me will obey my commands. He told us HE fulfilled the law...now we obey him because we love him! // The Mosaic law of do's and don'ts was not the Great Ten Commandments. //Matt. 19 means that if you love any person or material possessions more than you love Jesus, you are not worthy to be his disciple. A disciple is a learner and follower. The overcomers and the victorious are disciples that follow, love and obey Jesus. Read Paul's teachings to those baby Christians...he was trying to present them a a spotless bride/wife/church

Paul- “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it; that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭25‬-‭27‬

​

 

[DoYouREALLYthinkThat?]

RRL- keep in mind that what was referred to was a group of people that honored Yehovah and the one he sent!
Who does THAT anymore?

 

[DougE]

if you love any person or material possessions more than you love Jesus, you are not worthy to be his disciple.

Jesus didnt say that in this verse
There are consequences if they dont forsake all
[Matthew 10:37 KJV] "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
[Matthew 10:38 KJV] "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
[Matthew 10:39 KJV] "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

 

[DougE]

RRL- keep in mind that what was referred to was a group of people that honored Yehovah and the one he sent!
Who does THAT anymore?

Thanks for the posts

 

[RRLeath]

RRL- keep in mind that what was referred to was a group of people that honored Yehovah and the one he sent!
Who does THAT anymore?

Jesus didnt say that in this verse
There are consequences if they dont forsake all
[Matthew 10:37 KJV] "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
[Matthew 10:38 KJV] "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
[Matthew 10:39 KJV] "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

Jesus didnt say that in this verse
There are consequences if they dont forsake all
[Matthew 10:37 KJV] "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
[Matthew 10:38 KJV] "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
[Matthew 10:39 KJV] "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

This teaching was the same message to the rich young ruler...sell all you own. It's a message of surrender and abandonment. "love not the world" The rich young ruler like everyone else, was not willing to give up the world. He is telling you in those precious verses to forsake the world and all it's ties, surrender your life to him and then HE IS YOUR LIFE and if Christ is your life you are His and all he is and has is yours! You will wear the white robes of righteousness on that glorious day!

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”1 John‬ ‭2‬:‭15‬ ‭

The point of surrendering your life to Christ and salvation...Christ's death on behalf of man was to restore the original pre-fall love relationship God had with Adam. Everything that transpired between Eden and Calvary was to restore God's Spirit in man and once again God could enjoy that love relationship he originally had with His own creation...he made us for himself. It wasn't ego that Jesus was telling us to love, obey, give up, follow, - it was to restore us to Himself. God came in flesh, humbled himself to die an outrageous death to pay for our sin...to bring us most unworthy sinners back to Himself..that my friend, is Grace. We dont deserve it and if we would drop our sin loving self centeredness and consider all this we wouldn't be chopping up the Bible and finding reasons to excuse our selves from living a holy, righteous, God fearing life.

 

[DougE]

In John 14 Jesus said those that love me will obey my commands. He told us HE fulfilled the law...now we obey him because we love him! // The Mosaic law of do's and don'ts was not the Great Ten Commandments. //Matt. 19 means that if you love any person or material possessions more than you love Jesus, you are not worthy to be his disciple. A disciple is a learner and follower. The overcomers and the victorious are disciples that follow, love and obey Jesus. Read Paul's teachings to those baby Christians...he was trying to present them a a spotless bride/wife/church

Paul- “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it; that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭25‬-‭27‬

​

​

I couldnt reply to #52
You can follow Christ from his earthly ministry to Israel if you want
I will follow Christ thru Paul
Just realize everything Christ taught in his earthly ministry that was also meant for us will be found in Paul's epistles. An example would be to love

I see dispensations in scripture
I see a difference between Israel and the church, the body of Christ
I see Israel reconciling earth
I see the body reconciling heaven
I see all in one in the fulness of time

 

[Christ4Ever]

That post was irrelevant to addressing why you think there is one church as shown from scripture

Clearly you failed to understand it in my #4 post, and the scripture provided to you in it or just didn't like the significance of what it meant.
So, go ahead and define what “church/ekklesia” means, because what you’ve put forward will only be a dispensationalist attempt to split the Church/Body of Christ—a division that, according to Paul’s own words, doesn’t/cannot exist.

[Gal 3:26-29 KJV] 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Then put what you come up with what I wrote side by side and see which one agrees with what Paul wrote to the church in Galatia and was meant for all believers. In fact, you might as well read all of Chapter 3 it will do you good. \o/

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
Note: As a dispensationalist, you tend to conflate the Jewish hierarchical authority of the Temple in Jerusalem with the apostleship of Christ. Whose authority they followed no more than Saul did after his conversion and renaming as Paul. Location doesn't make the Church, the Body of Christ does. \o/

 

[Bill]

Jesus was NOT being liteal with the "bread and wine" statement.
He did turn Peter into a rock to use in the first church.
Jesus is not a door or water.
I've listed many times the many things Catholics believe and do and not one can back it with scripture in context.

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

Whoa , whoa

Where in the scripture did Jesus turn Peter into a Rock. Wow, never heard that before!!! LOL!

Now if if you want to try using the scripture and I will even use the King James

KJ21
And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And here Jesus is telling Peter that he is the leader of the church that he is building. And all the apostles recognized Peter as the head of this church.
-------------------

As far as the translation of the bread and the wine. It is clear that Jesus tells us that if you do not drink the blood or eat the flesh that you will not have life within you.

We do know that Jesus is not talking about cannibalism. But he is offering us the body and the blood through the means of blessing the bread and the wine.

Jesus does not expect us to be cannibals obviously, but he does expect us to eat and drink the bread and the wine that has been blessed in his name.

Now I personally don't have a problem with those of you that cannot accept that bread and wine actually being the body and the blood of Jesus, but I do expect you to at least receive the bread and wine after it has been blessed because Jesus has told us to do this.

If you are not doing this receiving Bread and Wine that has been blessed then you are not fulfilling what Jesus has asked you to do. And I would strongly suggest that you should look at going to another church that at least accepts this practice.

--------------------------

By the way Jesus is the one who stated that he is the door. I do understand what he means by this but if you wish to argue with Jesus on these Concepts maybe you should talk to him and not me or anyone else.

However with the water, it is written in the scripture that The Rock that followed the Israelites in the desert for 40 years was Jesus and from that rock sprung life-giving water. And if you remember Jesus at the well with the lady, he tells her that I will give you life giving water.

 

[MedicBravo]

I'm stating what the Catholics believe.
Their magic cross. Absurd idea they have a monopoly on ecorcising demons.
Purgatry. Babies in Hell. The list goes on.

 

[DougE]

Clearly you failed to understand it in my #4 post, and the scripture provided to you in it or just didn't like the significance of what it meant.
So, go ahead and define what “church/ekklesia” means, because what you’ve put forward will only be a dispensationalist attempt to split the Church/Body of Christ—a division that, according to Paul’s own words, doesn’t/cannot exist.

[Gal 3:26-29 KJV] 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Then put what you come up with what I wrote side by side and see which one agrees with what Paul wrote to the church in Galatia and was meant for all believers. In fact, you might as well read all of Chapter 3 it will do you good. \o/

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
Note: As a dispensationalist, you tend to conflate the Jewish hierarchical authority of the Temple in Jerusalem with the apostleship of Christ. Whose authority they followed no more than Saul did after his conversion and renaming as Paul. Location doesn't make the Church, the Body of Christ does. \o/

I agree with your definition of the church. I am saying that doesnt provide reasons to think there was only one church or not

I have no idea what you are saying in your note