Flying creeping things with four feet
- Thread starter WaterRock
- Start date
Brother Paul
Active
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,046
Plenty. This language was given so as to be comprehended by those to whom it was spoken. Note the humble fly or grasshopper....its two forward appendages (though we call them feet) are used much like hands....they use them to pick things up and for eating, etc., so to an ancient viewer this is what was being implicated (the semantics are irrelevant and should not be judged through the filter of literal modern English...but alas we all do it here or there)....
In His love
Paul
Brother Paul
Active
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,046
I know but the point is what was important. Many flying "insects" appear to use their two front appendages as arms (6 - 2 = 4). Secondly, only in general were "all" off limits because the next passage tells us they were allowed to eat certain ones (though that discussion is not the point).
Paul
Would that be speaking of those spirits who the LORD said “Let us make man in our image, and after our likeness”? :thumbsup:
I understand your use of the term appendages, however having considered that line of reasoning myself I found a couple of flaws with that precept. Now we wouldn't consider the antennae of the insect was a leg for the simple reason that even though they too are appendages, they are not used by the insect to produce motion, or movement upon the earth [ground]
However, one of the main points that those who believe the Bible is a myth cite is the reference to ‘four’ regarding the creeping flying thing. Thus they claim that the passage of Leviticus 11:21-23 implies that insects only have four legs. However, do all flying creeping things have six legs? If so then would be necessary to restate the obvious?
Answers in Genesis response is “The Bible in Leviticus 11:21 indicates that the hind jumping legs are not included in the four “walking” or “creeping” feet. The feet are the four front limbs used for walking and look the same. The back two limbs are primarily for long hops.” Although today, people lump them all together and say there are six legs, the Bible distinguished them here. The Bible referred to them in more detail than perhaps expected. Notice how the feet and legs are separated in the verses and referred to separately. The Bible is being very precise as to distinguish the front four from the back two. So, there is no contradiction at all:”
So in Leviticus 11:21 wherein it is written, “Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;” , one can’t not overstate the significance of having legs above their feet.:whistle When you say the humble fly or grasshopper have two forward appendages which they use for grasping, while I do not disagree but would ask if either of the insects cited can move upon the earth, or walk, using only four of their six appendages? So if they do require all six for their normal movement then one could not say they walk on the earth upon all four legs.
From the LOCOMOTION IN INSECTS website
Walking and Running in Insects
The standard explanation of insect walking is as follows. The insect maximizes stability by keeping a supporting tripod of three feet on the ground at any one time, the front and hind-leg
of one side and the middle leg on the other, whilst the other three are lifted in the air stepping forward to form the next tripod. With each step the insect falls from one tripod to the next, such that there is an alternation
from a tripod formed by the fore and hind-legs of the right side with the middle leg of the left side and a tripod formed by the middle leg of the right-side and the fore and hind-legs of the left side and so on. In each step the
hindleg on the ground provides most of the thrust, causing the insect to pivot to the side. (When the right hindleg is pushing on the ground it pivots to the right, and when the left hindleg is pushing it pivots to the
left). Thus, the insect moves in a zig-zag path as it advances. Keeping at least three feet on the ground at any one time gives optimum stability,as a tripod is a very stable structure, preventing the insect from
falling over.
Climbing in Insects the insect foot is a remarkable mechanical device. The five segments of the tarsus can bend to take the insects weight, and the pretarsus has special equipment for gripping different surfaces. The pretarsus has a pair of claws (pretarsal claws) and between these is typically a retractible cushion called the arolium. The claws are used to grip a rough surface, whilst the arolium, aided by an oily secretion, is used to grip smooth surfaces. This allows most insects to walk up walls and across ceilings, or up plant stems and underneath leaves. Consider ants, they can support up to 100 times their body weight before their feet
detach!
The mechanisms by which the arolium grips very smooth surfaces is not entirely understood. The secretion doe snot seem to act like simple glue. Clearly intermolecular forces must be involved. The figure
below illustrates the anatomy of the ant pretarsus, externally in frontal view and internally in side-view:
However, note how the illustration demonstrates that the movement of the six legs are in sequence wherein each legs moves one time as the insect moves forward. It is the same as man who walks upon two legs, while yes it is possible for man to hop on one leg, the normal sequence of walking is one foot followed by the other foot, thus he goes upon the earth. or walks upon two legs.
Were off limits?
Since all insects have six legs, then which flying insect can walk upon four legs?
Brother Paul
Active
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,046
Plenty. This language was given so as to be comprehended by those to whom it was spoken.
Would that be speaking of those spirits who the LORD said “Let us make man in our image, and after our likeness”? :thumbsup:
Huh? That isn't related at all...not even analogically!
Now we wouldn't consider the antennae of the insect was a leg for the simple reason that even though they too are appendages
Technically but they do not also walk on their antennae
Would that be speaking of those spirits who the LORD said “Let us make man in our image, and after our likeness”? :thumbsup:
Huh? That isn't related at all...not even analogically!
Now we wouldn't consider the antennae of the insect was a leg for the simple reason that even though they too are appendages
Technically but they do not also walk on their antennae
The soul isn't an analog circuit, but for the sake of clarity, don't think that I am saying that I know what was meant by the written document which contain the
writings of what God said. Especially when it is written within those documents that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
Not trying to shut you down, in fact you have a good point. Since all flying insect have six appendages,Answers in Genesis cites that the two rear appendages [BLUE] are neither being walking or creeping legs whereas you cite that the front two appendages[RED]are capable of grasping like hands and used like arms therefore they are neither walking or creeping legs.
So in consideration of the fact that all flying insects have six appendages, then wouldn't all six legs be used to creep upon the ground? Of course. However the scripture defines the flying insect which goes upon all four, which a) have legs above their feet and b) used to leap .
Then in verse 22, are given an example of those go upon all four, having legs above their feet, to leap which again would validate your precept not considering the front two as legs. .
However, if we say that the front two appendages are not legs, then by what precept is this based upon? You appear to cite the use of the forward appendages that appear as arms to be the precept. Since all the front appendages of those flying insects which appear to use them as arms all extend forward, then would that not mean that all of front appendages of flying insects that extended forward could be used as arms? {Just questions for the sake of discussion, I can take em as well as give em either way is educational to me]
If subject to the law of God, could you eat a Praying Mantis?
Brother Paul
Active
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,046
If I were under their covenant I would eat only what God said I could....
Brother Paul
Active
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,046
A member of the new Covenant in His blood, I am in Christ and the Spirit of Christ is in me, a new creature after the order of the last Adam (not of this world) who has the law of the Spirit written on his heart, which covenant are you a part of?
All insects? While I am sure you mean flying insects since in Leviticus 11:41 it is written "And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten." The only insects that the Torah stated could be eaten where those written in Leviticus 11:20 "Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;" 23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.
If I recall correctly, in Genesis 2:9, it is written "out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Genesis 2:15
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: Genesis 2:16 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:17 So how would one distinguish between the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
In Leviticus 11:21 it says "Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind." However, you say crickets, yet do not list the beetle as being edible. Since the term cricket was not originally used but is a interpretation of the translation, what precept do you use to determine that which has legs above their feet, just presume? All I am suggesting is that faith is more than simply believing, if the LORD said we should not eat of those things, then if they can be consumed without any ill effect to the one eating them then what reason was the dietary law given?
In Leviticus 11:20, it is written that all fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. So is a fowl a winged insect? I know of at least one Biblical version [ESV] it which replaces the term 'fowls' with 'winged insect'. So then all are all winged insects going upon all four an abomination?
Speaking of fowls, if all fowls were created on day five as written in Genesis 1:20, then how is it written in Genesis 2:19, And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
So if the LORD God formed every fowl of the air out of the ground, which one might construe as being the dry land called Earth from Genesis 1:10, then how is it written that the waters brought forth moving creature that hath life, including the fowl that may fly above the earth as written in Genesis 1:20.
Not a part of any legal covenant. Heir by Hope in the Promise. (Romans 4:14)
Brother Paul
Active
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,046
Great so as far as that goes we are on the same page...
Brother Paul
Active
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,046
Lol! Indeed! Faith IS the evidence of things hoped for...and our hope is the eager expectation of that which we KNOW we we will receive...Christ IN you the hope of glory!
Actually faith is the confidence to believe all things, believers just hope, but faith searches and makes inquiry of the truth, examine the facts, tests the evidence and to proves all things. As written, 2 Cor 13:5, faith without works is dead, being alone. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 1 Cor 15:19
Brother Paul
Active
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,046
You do realize this line of inquiry has brought us away from the OP (guilty~)...
but regarding the passage in 15 it says "If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." Not "if in this life only we have hope in Christ" (implying we will not in the life to come) but if in Christ we have hope in this life only (as if believing for here alone)...there is a huge difference...Has someone taught you we should turn this this other way?
As far as the rest I totally agree but perhaps you can clear this 1 Cor 15 question up for me, as I may not get where you are going with it...thanks, and then I will return to the OP
Dovegiven
Active
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2012
- Messages
- 1,083
Rather than read, copy and paste from the http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ why not do that yourself. They know how the Hebrew is used, while trying to reverse-engineer from English to Hebrew is somewhat difficult.
I recommend you search it for "creeping things", clean animals, unclean animals, locusts, bats, unclean fowl, etc. to get the whole picture. Carnivores and scavengers are generally prohibited. But that has nothing to do with Christians. We are not bound to the Jewish dietary laws, or anything related except what was allowed in Acts 15.
