False teacher, prophets and doctrines.. again.

[Jonathan_Gale]

That's my point, Mr. Gale. IT DOES SAY PRAYER. There's no confusion when one reads it in Greek. The grammatical principle of gender matching for noun and modifier clearly stipulates that the PNEUMA (spirit) is the RHEMA (word) of God, not the BIBLOS (Bible). Neither the word GRAPHOS or BIBLOS are used anywhere. When the modifying clauses are parsed out, the text literally reads, TAKE YE THE SWORD BY MEANS OF ALL PRAYER, PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT.

(My slight apologies, in that I'm not shouting, I'm using capital letters for Greek words and their English equivalents when necessary. Then again, I guess I was being a bit emphatic in my second sentence.)

But one might just as well ask why confuse anything with a metaphor of "armor"? Why just not list the elements of salvation, righteousness, truth, et. al. and be done with it?

It's interesting to note, though, that in the metaphor, everything is defensive, with only prayer remaining as offensive. (Ahhh... I see you understand this.

The metaphor of "armor" was based on the OT with specific reference, not Paul's jailer wearing a set of such armor, as a lot of pastor taught.

And limited? This thing you call "spirit" is only limited to your definition from John 16?

What about John 14?

(John 14:26 KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
And the Holy Spirit certainly did other things, like give utterance to tongues.

(Acts 2:4 KJV) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
What of direction? Does not the Spirit give direction as well?

(Acts 8:29 KJV) Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
(Acts 16:6 KJV) Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
(The implications of the Holy Spirit forbidding the word to be preached is staggering.)

I have had the Holy Spirit speak to me on more than several occasions. It is both terrifying and wonderful.

At this point, Mr. Gale, I'm going to risk an assumption, and perhaps even risk being banned. It would seem to me that you haven't had much interaction with the Pentecostal branch of the Christian Church? Go say hi to a few fellow Pentecostal brethren (the ones that aren't completely insane, of course).

May His Love abound,
Rhema

Yes, the Holy Spirit is capable of a lot of things, but when it's compared to a sword, it's only referring to the conviction of sins. No other roles you mentioned "cut to the heart", to the church (Acts 2:37) and the mob (Acts 7:54) alike. When Yeshua was tempted by Satan, did he pray him away? Give a lecture on him? Point to another direction to escape from him? Or face him and fight - with specific quotes all from Deut. 6 to 8?

First, I am not a fan of numerology. it smacks of astrology and witchcraft. But....

Within the metaphor (as stated above) the Sword, (as the weapon) IS prayer. It's not an addition.

Eph. 6:17-18) και (AND) την (THE) περικεφαλαιαν (HELMET) του (OF) σωτηριου (SALVATION) δεξασθε (TAKE YE) και (AND) την (THE) μαχαιραν (SWORD) [....] δια (BY MEANS OF / "via") πασης (ALL) προσευχης (PRAYER) ...

Neither am I a fan of that, but certain numbers do have significant meanings in the biblical text, especially seven. You know, regarding bible interpretation, although the text is so deep for us to fathom, when it comes to numbers, always stick to the literal meaning. When it says 7 day creation, then just 7 24-hour days; when it says Christ will reign a thousand years, then a thousand years; when it says the Dragon is given 1260 days, then 1260 days. If it's bent towards a man made doctrine, for example, either of these now suddenly indicate an "indefinite, unspecified period of time", then this is very likely from the devil.

 

[Rhema]

So, do you/we think that the regurgitating of the error is something that perhaps has been done in ignorance? [by the many and most]

I think what we have here is language drift.

As mentioned before, in the King's English, the modifying clause in Eph. 6:17 "which is the word of God" attaches directly to the prior noun (spirit). The SPIRIT is the WORD of God, not the sword.

In America, for some reason, the possessive clause "of the spirit" gets dropped out, and the phrase "word of God" gets attached to "SWORD," Regardless, though, in Greek this mistake cannot be made, since the modifying clause "which is the word of God" is NEUTER in gender to describe PNEUMA (spirit) and not feminine to indicate "sword." It can't be misread in Greek.

And it doesn't help that both LOGOS and RHEMA are translated into "WORD," completely fusing these two separate concepts together. When one reads "word" in English, which word? Logos or Rhema? One cannot tell. And this "with-fusion" (con-fusion) has a direct impact on Romans chapter 10.

(Romans 10:17 KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the RHEMA of God.​

The RHEMA of God is the Holy Spirit speaking directly to a person, and Paul claims such an experience. The Faith of Paul came from God speaking directly to him. It is an experience that every believer is to have - daily.

Unfortunately, the English word "faith" today has been brutally deformed by the Kierkegaardian "leap" of faith. Modern philosophy has changed the definition of the word PISTIS, or rather, the English word into which PISTIS was translated.

The best way to destroy a concept is to change the definition of the words used to explain the concept. ( I learned this by studying the "commies.")

And we come now to a brutal reality where believers have not placed their faith in Xhrist, but rather in the Bible. And from my experience, these two things are not the same. Bart Ehrman clearly states that his faith was placed in the Bible, and when he started to understand the mistakes and errors within the Bible, his faith collapsed. It's not an easy thing to experience, and if my faith had not been in Jesus, then it too would have collapsed.

Br. Bear, I'm not sure if this had helped or not.

But there is one thing I would like to mention. I have heard throughout my lifetime that (these hated horrible SATANIC) Catholics prohibited people from reading the Bible. But how so? Because when the Vulgate was commissioned, Latin was the common language of the people, not Greek. Later, during the medieval ages when the Empire fell and civilization broke down, so did language. French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, English (whether Anglo-Norman or Anglo-Saxon)... none of these existed in the Empire. And so the one remaining language by which to preserve "the written word" was Latin. The Vulgate was then settled upon as a way to repel language drift and maintain the purity of the concepts of the Faith.




But since the SWORD is PRAYER, do we pray enough?

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

given that you abound in kindness, can you please help explain the seeming contradiction

The book of Hebrews uses the word LOGOS.

The book of Ephesians uses the word RHEMA.

Two different words, two different concepts.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

The Holy Spirit AND the word of God ....

Waggles, the Holy Spirit IS the word (Rhema) of God.

And one might say that the Gospel is the word (Logos) of God.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is capable of a lot of things, but when it's compared to a sword, it's only referring to the conviction of sins.

Mr. Gale, my apologies, it is late, and I need to get some sleep.

That said, where is the Holy Spirit ever compared to a sword? Perhaps I am missing something in the colloquial.

If I have a sword, I'm not being compared to a sword.

But I appreciate the reply, and shall have to read the rest tomorrow.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

That's my point, Mr. Gale. IT DOES SAY PRAYER. There's no confusion when one reads it in Greek. The grammatical principle of gender matching for noun and modifier clearly stipulates that the PNEUMA (spirit) is the RHEMA (word) of God, not the BIBLOS (Bible). Neither the word GRAPHOS or BIBLOS are used anywhere. When the modifying clauses are parsed out, the text literally reads, TAKE YE THE SWORD BY MEANS OF ALL PRAYER, PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT.

(My slight apologies, in that I'm not shouting, I'm using capital letters for Greek words and their English equivalents when necessary. Then again, I guess I was being a bit emphatic in my second sentence.)

But one might just as well ask why confuse anything with a metaphor of "armor"? Why just not list the elements of salvation, righteousness, truth, et. al. and be done with it?

It's interesting to note, though, that in the metaphor, everything is defensive, with only prayer remaining as offensive. (Ahhh... I see you understand this.)

And by the way, I looked up the two greek words "logos" and "rhema", although both are commonly translated as "words", the former could be any piece of information, the latter is specifically an "utterance", SPOKEN word. In a biblical context, it's very similar to the concepts of general revelation and personal revelation, "logos" is who Yeshua is - God incarnate, "rhema" is who YOU SAY he is - John the Baptist, Elijah, any other prophet or - God incarnate. The thing is, "logos" is NOT limited to a title of Yeshua, and "rhema" is not limited to prayer.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Mr. Gale, my apologies, it is late, and I need to get some sleep.

That said, where is the Holy Spirit ever compared to a sword? Perhaps I am missing something in the colloquial.

If I have a sword, I'm not being compared to a sword.

But I appreciate the reply, and shall have to read the rest tomorrow.

God bless,
Rhema

Alright, sweet dream, sir. It's twilight over here, sorry for being inconsiderate. However, regardless of what you think the "word" means, in all translations it says "the sword of the Spirit". As a matter of fact, Holy Spirit is also compared to a dove and a fire. If you don't like the rhetoric of "sword", then that's not my problem.

Ephesians 6:17 - The Armor of God

And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

biblehub.com

 

[Rhema]

"rhema" is not limited to prayer.

My apologies for not being clear. I never said that the RHEMA of God is limited to prayer. I said that the SWORD is PRAYER, within the metaphor of the Armor.

Yes, Rhema is when God speaks to you. The best known example of Rhema is the Ten Dabar (Commandments).

(Exodus 20:1 KJV) And God spake all these words, saying,​

All the prophets (the legitimate ones) in the OT received the RHEMA of God. The Spirit is the Rhema(Word) of God.

And by the way, I looked up the two greek words "logos" and "rhema"

Don't you love learning new and wonderful things about God?

Rhema

(John 14:13-14 KJV) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.​

​

(John 16:23-24 KJV) And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.​

 

[Rhema]

If you don't like the rhetoric of "sword", then that's not my problem.

What on earth gave you that impression?

We need to be using the Sword... We need to be Praying.

(Ephesians 6:18 YLT+) by means of all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the Spirit, and in regard to this same, watching in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—​

But if we perpetuate this false teaching that the sword is a book, rather than prayer..... well.... what we do matters. And how we perceive truth matters. (Does it not?)

Rhema


Nearly four decades ago, I attended the weekly Wed. prayer meeting at the church I was attending - a church that taught the Sword was the Bible. This was to be a special prayer meeting where the pastor was to stress the importance of prayer..... I was the only one who showed up.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

What on earth gave you that impression?

Because all you talked about is prayer and this pesky issue of translation. You know, etymology is helpful sometimes, but not all the time. A single word by and of itself never doesn't mean anything, you always have to put it in the context to make some sense out of it. If you get the right context and understand the general narrative, when there's a bad translation that looks out of place, you can spot it. Eph 6:19-20 says, "and for me, that utterance - rhema - may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains, that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak." Whatever you believe, this sounds more like preaching than praying to me. Of course, praying is essential, but I don't think praying in privacy behind closed doors (Matt. 5:6) can make the gospel known to anybody.

 

[Rhema]

pesky issue of translation.

Don't you use a translation? Why denigrate translation issues as "pesky"? I stopped using translations a looong time ago. So, I'm not reading messed up scripture.

Eph 6:19-20 says, "and for me, that utterance - rhema - may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains, that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak." Whatever you believe, this sounds more like preaching than praying to me.

Truly what is wrong with you?

RHEMA is the Holy Spirit of God, not prayer.

The SWORD is prayer.

(Well this has truly morphed into the bizarre... please, try and read what I actually wrote. Thank you.)

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Don't you use a translation? Why denigrate translation issues as "pesky"? I stopped using translations a looong time ago. So, I'm not reading messed up scripture.

To be honest, English is not my mother tongue, so a translation is better than a translation - of a translation. If you can read the original, good for you, I'll take what I can get.

Truly what is wrong with you?

RHEMA is the Holy Spirit of God, not prayer.

The SWORD is prayer.

(Well this has truly morphed into the bizarre... please, try and read what I actually wrote. Thank you.)

You're one whose claim is bizarre. I'm not an expert of ancient Greek as much as you are, but I'm pretty sure that "PNEUMA HAGION" is the Holy Spirit of God. If you ask an average parishioner, "pneuma" is probably the only Greek word they know.

 

[Rhema]

To be honest, English is not my mother tongue, so a translation is better than a translation - of a translation. If you can read the original, good for you, I'll take what I can get.

Thank you. That does explain why my posts have failed to convey sufficient meaning. Might I ask what translation you use? My wife is Chinese, and we've had much fun over the years finding what is obviously denominational bias. My abilities to read the original Greek texts was hard won.... and I tend to use the LXX for the OT, as it just hurts my head to think in Hebrew.

Here's a fun example:

(Isaiah 22:18 KJV) He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house.​

Isaiah was a contemporary of the ancient Greek Olympic Games. And rather than "ball," a better word would be discus.

btw, in English, the phrase "good for you" is considered rather derogatory. As with other phrases you've used, why so mean? Are you looking to pick a fight? Why? If so, find someone else.

but I'm pretty sure that "PNEUMA HAGION" is the Holy Spirit of God.

Yes, but I fail to see your point. The passage in Ephesians directly defines the RHEMA of God as the PNEUMA HAGION. It describes an event where the Holy Spirit of God comes upon you and either speaks directly to you, or gives you words to proclaim. That said, though, in the metaphor of the armor, the SWORD is PRAYER.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Brother Paul]

Thank you. That does explain why my posts have failed to convey sufficient meaning. Might I ask what translation you use? My wife is Chinese, and we've had much fun over the years finding what is obviously denominational bias. My abilities to read the original Greek texts was hard won.... and I tend to use the LXX for the OT, as it just hurts my head to think in Hebrew.

Here's a fun example:

(Isaiah 22:18 KJV) He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house.​

Isaiah was a contemporary of the ancient Greek Olympic Games. And rather than "ball," a better word would be discus.

btw, in English, the phrase "good for you" is considered rather derogatory. As with other phrases you've used, why so mean? Are you looking to pick a fight? Why? If so, find someone else.


Yes, but I fail to see your point. The passage in Ephesians directly defines the RHEMA of God as the PNEUMA HAGION. It describes an event where the Holy Spirit of God comes upon you and either speaks directly to you, or gives you words to proclaim. That said, though, in the metaphor of the armor, the SWORD is PRAYER.

Kindly,
Rhema

Isaiah was in no way a contemporary of the Greek Games. They were not even in his frame of reference. The Hebrew word Dur literally means Ball NOT discus

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Thank you. That does explain why my posts have failed to convey sufficient meaning. Might I ask what translation you use? My wife is Chinese, and we've had much fun over the years finding what is obviously denominational bias. My abilities to read the original Greek texts was hard won.... and I tend to use the LXX for the OT, as it just hurts my head to think in Hebrew.

Here's a fun example:

(Isaiah 22:18 KJV) He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house.
Isaiah was a contemporary of the ancient Greek Olympic Games. And rather than "ball," a better word would be discus.

btw, in English, the phrase "good for you" is considered rather derogatory. As with other phrases you've used, why so mean? Are you looking to pick a fight? Why? If so, find someone else.

Alright, I apologize for inadvertantly being mean. To answer your question, a hardcover NKJV is all I have. I'm well aware of the errors and biases in this version, the deeper I dive in the more I find, but I don't want translation issue to become a stumbling block on my spiritual journey to follow the Lord.

When it comes to Bible interpretation, especially the NT, I keep both an open mind and a closed mind. A closed mind is connecting the NT with OT instead of being preoccupied with any "denominational bias" or man made traditions, follow the Bereans' example, whatever teaching I receive, always examine them in the Torah, look for OT references and Jewish cultural background, go to the OT instead of a dictionary for help. For example, what is the mark of the Beast? Instead of all kinds of wild conspiracy and irrational fear, there's only one answer: a counterfeit of the Seal of God, God's holy commandment, which is also bound on the hand and the forehead (Deut. 6:8). Any teaching that fails to mention this is not legitimate. An open mind, though, is drawing inspirational and practical values from Bible, view all things in this crazy world through the lens of the Scripture, never, ever compartmentalize Christianity by putting God in a box labeled "religion" and dismissing everything else in politics, economy, etertainment, etc as "secular".

Yes, but I fail to see your point. The passage in Ephesians directly defines the RHEMA of God as the PNEUMA HAGION. It describes an event where the Holy Spirit of God comes upon you and either speaks directly to you, or gives you words to proclaim. That said, though, in the metaphor of the armor, the SWORD is PRAYER.

Kindly,
Rhema

Whatever you say, boss. To be honest, I don't find any fun or benefit in this debate on one individual word. Reductionism is folly, the whole is greater than the sum total of its parts. It's a tragedy that you can't see the forest for the trees, and it's a greater tragedy when you can't see the tree for the leaves. Instead of playing word game, to me, any definition that fits the context of SPIRITUAL WARFARE will do.

 

[Rhema]

The Hebrew word Dur literally means Ball NOT discus

Citation? Which Hebrew Lexicon do you use. (Start with Strong's if you need to.)

Isaiah was in no way a contemporary of the Greek Games.

Isaiah: Born 8th century BC : Died 7th century BC

Isaiah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The originating Olympic Games are traditionally dated to 776 BC (in other words, 8th century BC).

Ancient Olympic Games - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Seriously, am I the only one who actually does their homework?

C'mon man. You should know better than to even think that I'm incompetent.

Rhema
(That's ONE)

 

[Rhema]

Instead of playing word game, to me, any definition that fits the context of SPIRITUAL WARFARE will do.

There were other parts that I would comment on, but this stood out first and foremost.

How many demons have you exorcised?
(And I'm asking a question, not trying to pick a fight.)

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

There were other parts that I would comment on, but this stood out first and foremost.

How many demons have you exorcised?
(And I'm asking a question, not trying to pick a fight.)

Thanks,
Rhema

Casting out demons is not something a true believer should brag about. Isn't that one typical behavior of a fake believer? "Lord, didn't we cast out demons in your name?" I can't speak for anybody else, but a lot of demons from my past are surely cast out, Yeshua has smashed these strongholds.

 

[Rhema]

Casting out demons is not something a true believer should brag about.

Why do you always snap to the malevolent? I wasn't bragging, nor enticing you to brag, I was trying to get a concrete feel for what you call "SPIRITUAL WARFARE" after you accused me of word games.

So after you accused me of words games I asked about hard accomplishments. I've run into many a believer whose "Spiritual Warfare" is just that... word games in loud prayers that have no effect.

Isn't that one typical behavior of a fake believer? "Lord, didn't we cast out demons in your name?"

No. It's not. I see this passage as one of misapplied self assurance, that this type of person says to himself, "I'm saved because I can cast out demons." And that's not the basis for our salvation. Our actions of Love toward one another composes the basis of our salvation... that the Holy Spirit cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

And yet there are other passages where Jesus says that Beelzebub doesn't help people cast out demons. Could those people cast out demons in the name of Beelzebub (ect.)? Certainly not. So at some point there would need to have been an outworking of the Holy Spirit for those demons to be cast out. Maybe they were mistaken in their belief that demons were even cast out.

So while I reject your accusation of bragging, I shall say that there needs to be evidence in a believer's life to the extent of:

(Mark 16:16-17 KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;​

These signs must follow them that believe, but they are not the basis for (and hence cannot be proof of) our salvation.

Rhema

a lot of demons from my past are surely cast out,

Actual Sentient Critters? Or are you speaking metaphorically? ( It's a bit hard to tell.)

 

[Rhema]

To answer your question, a hardcover NKJV is all I have.

Ah... Okay... But I was actually inquiring about what translation you might have in your Mother Tongue.

I'm well aware of the errors and biases in this version, the deeper I dive in the more I find, but I don't want translation issue to become a stumbling block on my spiritual journey to follow the Lord.

I can respect that, but at times, a bad translation can itself be a stumbling block.

If I may, I'd like to recommend this New Testament:

Amazon.com

There are a variety of combinations, most of which have the NIV in them (of which I am not a fan).

Amazon.com

the whole is greater than the sum total of its parts

As long as the parts aren't broken....

Instead of playing word game, to me, any definition that fits the context of SPIRITUAL WARFARE will do.

And we are right back to "whatever that means..." But if you plan to use a Sword in "SPIRITUAL WARFARE" one better know what that sword is.

Rhema