Faith or works or both?
Loyal
Really Dave . ( eyes are rolling , with a sign )
Every word you type out here are your thoughts on print
Im beginning to think ppl are scrutinizing a wee bit much .
Loyal
We are to love one another, but what kind of love are we to show to one another?
Romans 12:10-13 (NKJV - New King James Bible)
10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;
11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;
13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
Romans 12:10-13 (NIV2011)
10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves.
11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.
12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.
13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
Romans 12:10-13 (CJB - Complete Jewish Bible)
10 Love each other devotedly and with brotherly love; and set examples for each other in showing respect.
11 Don’t be lazy when hard work is needed, but serve the Lord with spiritual fervor.
12 Rejoice in your hope, be patient in your troubles, and continue steadfastly in prayer.
13 Share what you have with God’s people, and practice hospitality.
Romans 12:10-13 (NJB - New Jerusalem Bible)
10 In brotherly love let your feelings of deep affection for one another come to expression and regard others as more important than yourself.
11 In the service of the Lord, work not halfheartedly but with conscientiousness and an eager spirit.
12 Be joyful in hope, persevere in hardship; keep praying regularly;
13 share with any of God's holy people who are in need; look for opportunities to be hospitable.
John 15:12 (NKJV)
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
In this verse love is from the Strong's Greek dictionary <G25>
you love - agapao
as I have loved - agapao
to love one another in a 'social and moral sense'
In the next verse 'Greater Love has no one than this.
The Strong's Greek definition of the word love is <G26> is God's love
love - agape - being a Divine Love, affection or benevolence.
Blessings and Peace
Jesus loves you, we do too.
Romans 12:10-13 (NKJV - New King James Bible)
10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;
11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;
13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
Romans 12:10-13 (NIV2011)
10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves.
11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.
12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.
13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
Romans 12:10-13 (CJB - Complete Jewish Bible)
10 Love each other devotedly and with brotherly love; and set examples for each other in showing respect.
11 Don’t be lazy when hard work is needed, but serve the Lord with spiritual fervor.
12 Rejoice in your hope, be patient in your troubles, and continue steadfastly in prayer.
13 Share what you have with God’s people, and practice hospitality.
Romans 12:10-13 (NJB - New Jerusalem Bible)
10 In brotherly love let your feelings of deep affection for one another come to expression and regard others as more important than yourself.
11 In the service of the Lord, work not halfheartedly but with conscientiousness and an eager spirit.
12 Be joyful in hope, persevere in hardship; keep praying regularly;
13 share with any of God's holy people who are in need; look for opportunities to be hospitable.
John 15:12 (NKJV)
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
In this verse love is from the Strong's Greek dictionary <G25>
you love - agapao
as I have loved - agapao
to love one another in a 'social and moral sense'
In the next verse 'Greater Love has no one than this.
The Strong's Greek definition of the word love is <G26> is God's love
love - agape - being a Divine Love, affection or benevolence.
Blessings and Peace
Jesus loves you, we do too.
Loyal
Loyal
I think ppl get stuck on the " word " works , because it sounds catholic .
To me when i see how Jesus wants us to express an action , such as compassion or love . These are things that require effort . Faith in itself is effortless until acted upon .
The notion or thought that comes to us via God's Grace is a free gift , that is faith . But we still have to have actions . Even to say , i believe that Jesus is Lord , is an effort.
So many ppl feel they have faith , and never express it . They bury the free gift given to them in the sand . ( the talent )
What is even the greater action , accepting Jesus . " No one can go to the Father , but through me "
Our faith brings us to face Jesus . It brings us to the door . But we still have to take the action , or in otherwords " a work " . It takes an action on our part to knock on that door . To accept and recieve Jesus into our being .
Here again , the action must also continue . It is written , " if salt looses its saltiness what good is it " it is also written " the tree that bears no fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire " . Understand both the salt and tree were at one time whole. It is the same with us . We are the salt and fruit tree Jesus speaks of . We must strive to walk in God .
What i am saying , if after recieving Jesus as Lord and Savior , you choose to walk your own path . Without God . (If in your head you think , i have accepted Jesus as God. Now i can do whatever i want) you will be in danger of hellfire. It is the same walk Judas took.
So yes , it is faith that brings us to Jesus . But it is our actions that recieve Jesus , our faith and our actions walk hand in hand . Faith without the action of Love is like a gong clanging in the wind . These are Pauls own words.
Moderator
Staff Member
Loyal
And I would add that the people who have the concept that 'now that I'm saved, I can go do anything I want' , don't understand what takes place in a person's heart as a result Of having been saved. Which means that chances Are that they themselves haven't experienced salvation. And 'they' have observed people who haven't had a 'heart' acknolwegement of salvation. In all probability haven't understood salvation in the first place. Maybe walked an aisle because 'everyone else was doing it' or someone they were with wanted them to do that. Maybe in a group, they were given some literature and took part in a group prayer and then 'sent on their way'. And, often times, going forward in a church, everyone is waiting for a prayer to be prayed and an announcement of what has happened. And everyone one says 'Amen' and there's no further counseling. What Should happen is that the person walking down that aisle needs to be taken to a quiet room so there can be uninterrupted conversation. Find out what the person came forward For. Maybe the person Doesn't really understand 'salvation' and isn't ready To pray a prayer. Pray with the person -- take time to talk with the person they came with. Write down some Scripture verses for them to read. A phone # to call with questions. They Still need the Lord as their Savior and they Still need to be growing spiritually.
And, yes, the Holy Spirit Does 'knock' at our hearts-door and we Do need to answer -- open our heart's door. He doesn't come In without our opening our heart To Him. Everyone Is spiritually Dead but physically Alive. We Can respond.
My 'faith' -- what am I doing in my daily life -- for Others. Am I a friendly person / do I help out when I'm able to ? If I feel a Need to go help at the local soup kitchen then great. But don't do it Grudgingly as if ''if I Don't then I'll be in trouble do with God'' or That effort has become a 'good work' that you feel compelled to do to 'sustain' your salvation. Which would be an indication of Not really understanding salvation.
do I put my interests to work in the local church where I go to? Am I a front-door greeter? Or 'something'?!
When a person Does accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior , the Holy Spirit does come to indwell and Puts desires within us To Be different. There's the verse that says -- well Christian liberty -- just because I CAN doesn't mean I SHOULD
Is what I'm doing going to glorify God? that which I'm thinking about putting in my body -- is it Good for me ? Food-wise. There are some medications that we Need to take for a short time that make us Wonder. But usually we have a choice of what we Do take-in. Both our bodies and our Minds And people Do observe us. And we know how we feel.
And, yes, the Holy Spirit Does 'knock' at our hearts-door and we Do need to answer -- open our heart's door. He doesn't come In without our opening our heart To Him. Everyone Is spiritually Dead but physically Alive. We Can respond.
My 'faith' -- what am I doing in my daily life -- for Others. Am I a friendly person / do I help out when I'm able to ? If I feel a Need to go help at the local soup kitchen then great. But don't do it Grudgingly as if ''if I Don't then I'll be in trouble do with God'' or That effort has become a 'good work' that you feel compelled to do to 'sustain' your salvation. Which would be an indication of Not really understanding salvation.
do I put my interests to work in the local church where I go to? Am I a front-door greeter? Or 'something'?!
When a person Does accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior , the Holy Spirit does come to indwell and Puts desires within us To Be different. There's the verse that says -- well Christian liberty -- just because I CAN doesn't mean I SHOULD
Is what I'm doing going to glorify God? that which I'm thinking about putting in my body -- is it Good for me ? Food-wise. There are some medications that we Need to take for a short time that make us Wonder. But usually we have a choice of what we Do take-in. Both our bodies and our Minds And people Do observe us. And we know how we feel.
Loyal
I think i missed the connection of what i was talking about , and your responce .another way of putting it, Bill....
takes a little doing on our part ....><>
I was explaining the need of how faith and " works " or personal action ( love ) must occur together.
Bro Bear , certainly forgiveness is important . But where is the connection on these 2 topics
Loyal
I often go to the life of Judas Iscariot as an example of losing your salvation .
1st we have to understand what Jesus says when talking with the Pharisees. This is after Jesus casts a demon out, and the Pharisees claim it done through the Devil. Jesus says, "a house divided against itself can not stand".
2nd Jesus sends the Apostles out to the towns. He gives them authority over demons and to heal ppl.
3rd Judas's full name is written as amoung those who did this.
4th. We need to remember Judus could not cast out demons unless he was doing it in God.
5th after returning to Jesus , the Apostles were excited, and were talking about it. To which Jesus responded, " rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven" ( this conversation was directed at the Apostles)
6th Jesus stated thier names are written in heaven. Judas Iscariot 's full name , written in the word. He cast out demons and healed ppl in the Lord.
7th. Judas chose to walk his own path. ( i know better than God ) and eventually betreyed Jesus.
There should be no doubts where he was in the beginning of his Walk with Jesus. These Apostles were With Jesus. They saw it all .
But Judas still threw that place in heaven away
Loyal
The "works" of "faith" is more of proof to you that you really do have faith. If you believe (have faith) in the promises of God, then you should be experiencing their reality in your life. If not then what you thought as being faith was something else.
Faith is a "spirit", and that spirit of faith comes when it hears the Word of God. The Word of God describes the "work" that faith is supposed to do if you speak it.
If you never confess the promises of God then your faith has no work to perform and does nothing.
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according to as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe and therefore speak;
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Faith is so powerful that not only can it change the circumstances of life, it can change things that are not as though they were. It can and will move you to do things that you could never do or would not usually want to do.
Faith is a "spirit", and that spirit of faith comes when it hears the Word of God. The Word of God describes the "work" that faith is supposed to do if you speak it.
If you never confess the promises of God then your faith has no work to perform and does nothing.
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according to as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe and therefore speak;
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Faith is so powerful that not only can it change the circumstances of life, it can change things that are not as though they were. It can and will move you to do things that you could never do or would not usually want to do.
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings Bill,
Love is For Giving, Bill.
Perhaps the one most overlooked parts of the Gospel is forgiveness.
It has to be love, surely?
While we were yet sinners.....
the Loving Kindness of God,
Actually, really forgiving someone requires 100% Love. You wrote about faith and works, yes? You called out Love as the operative of Faith or, the works of Faith, yes?
When God forgives someone, does He say , "you're forgiven", and then brush them off and go on His way, letting the forgiven one be forgiven and that is that... OR....
does He open those Arms of Love and embrace and take in, and brush off, and pour out unspeakable love and by so doing show His forgiveness in real terms that are the very foundation of all we have in Him?
Christ did not simply die so all are forgiven and then get back to Heaven and play cards or watch video games or do a little gardening or the like. No, He took us in! We can now cry out ABBA, Father!
So, when we forgive one another, is that something we do? If so, it is a verb, sort of thing, like love. A doing word.
Tell me why we should forgive? Could it be an act of faith.... based on what we have both been told to do AND because we believe that is what God wants.?
Do we have enough faith that in forgiving, we are doing His will?
Why forgive someone? Could love have something to do with it?
Is it not loving God, because we are doing that which He both tells us to do and it pleases Him AND loving another by forgiving them and letting love reign where unforgiveness, resentment, bitterness and hatred might otherwise like to rule the roost? (not to mention back biting, division, strife, anger, etc)
Does this help, Bill?
Bless you ....><>
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Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,
Faith without works is dead.
I think we all know that, or should.
Abraham believed God. Did Abraham believe God or what God told him or both? When he believed, did he kick back and chill? Or, did he get to and do the thing that God said?
The word obedience is an interesting word that can shed some light on this subject. (with the help of God, via the Helper)
Did you know that 'obedience' is made up of a couple of words or word parts?
Let me explain, if i can:
naturally, obedience is from obey.
c. 1300, obeien, "carry out the commands of (someone); submit to (a command, rule, etc.); be ruled by," from Old French obeir "obey, be obedient, do one's duty" (12c.), from Latin obedire, oboedire "obey, be subject, serve; pay attention to, give ear," literally "listen to," from ob "to" (see ob-) + audire "listen, hear" (from PIE root *au- "to perceive"). Same sense development is in hiersumnian, the Old English word for the same thing. Related: Obeyed; obeying.
kindly pinched from: obey | Origin and meaning of obey by Online Etymology Dictionary
See something there?
Guess what, Faith comes by...... hearing!
But it is not simply hearing or listening to, without taking any notice and if need be [which is usually the case with things from God] doing that which we have heard. hence, "carry out the commands of (someone); submit to (a command, rule, etc.); be ruled by,"
Did you see that? Doing that which we have heard = obey or obedience.
So faith, a doing word, comes from/by hearing (obeying-style-hearing).
Back to Abraham, by faith, he believed and we know that he did, as in, he did that which he heard (to do)... and, it was counted to him as righteousness. Groovy stuff, if i may use such modern terminology.
Let's go now to the Garden, that beautiful place we might all long to be able to at least visit, yes?
God told Adam to not eat of the fruit of the tree in the midst of the Garden, and we know what happened. Adam did not obey God. He took no notice in real terms and action. BUT..... BUT ..... he did listen to and believe a liar and his dirty lie... and we know that sin and death entered at that moment.
Obeying God is Life.
How do we obey?
A quick look at Jesus.... What did He do? What did He speak? That which He heard from the Father.
Jesus was OBEDIENT unto death, the death of the Cross. He listened to and did what He heard, all the way, even at the Garden He did not turn away but prayed like none other ever has but submitted to His Father. Wow!
So, for us, how do we do the works? Jesus did the works. He lived out before us all, faith.
We are to listen and hear (he who has ears let him hear) and do that which we have heard (from God).
If we or any others do not obey, we can not be walking by faith.
Faith, is not a magical power to get things. It is obedience (in action to that which we have heard.)
A simple picture from science: An apple obeys gravity when tossed into the air (unless a passing gull snaffles it! ) But remember , apples do not have ears, either real live floppy ones nor those we might call spiritual. But, they do as the rules dictate and always did, long before some chap discovered that rule in a way that could be written down and applied. The difference is that the fruit of an apple is not empowered or equipped with senses or the like and will not 'disobey'.
the fruit in us can be either obedient unto life and righteousness or.... rotten and full of worms.
Faith is the working of itself in love. We love God? We keep His commandments, which are not grievous.
God gave because He loved, in other words, Love is for giving. It is an action word and if we love God we will listen to what He says and do accordingly. We will give him the honour and obedience over and above any other. That is faith with and by works, or, working faith, doing faith.
Trying to muster enough faith to believe you can receive? Forget it.
Because you believe, you do, and that is the working of faith..... and true love.
With God, He always has a receivable part of His Commands and Promises, and so we don;t need to get enough faith to receive... we need to follow directions and do... and in doing we recieve ... even if we can not yet see how... like Abraham... being old and Sarah too. He believed. He then did, because he believed and as part of his believing... a living faith..... faith by and with works.
guess what... if Abraham did not and had not.... we would not be.
did Abraham receive?
by the way, who does God talk to?
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him
Hebrews 11:5-6
Praise the LORD!
Bless you ....><>
Faith without works is dead.
I think we all know that, or should.
Abraham believed God. Did Abraham believe God or what God told him or both? When he believed, did he kick back and chill? Or, did he get to and do the thing that God said?
The word obedience is an interesting word that can shed some light on this subject. (with the help of God, via the Helper)
Did you know that 'obedience' is made up of a couple of words or word parts?
Let me explain, if i can:
naturally, obedience is from obey.
c. 1300, obeien, "carry out the commands of (someone); submit to (a command, rule, etc.); be ruled by," from Old French obeir "obey, be obedient, do one's duty" (12c.), from Latin obedire, oboedire "obey, be subject, serve; pay attention to, give ear," literally "listen to," from ob "to" (see ob-) + audire "listen, hear" (from PIE root *au- "to perceive"). Same sense development is in hiersumnian, the Old English word for the same thing. Related: Obeyed; obeying.
kindly pinched from: obey | Origin and meaning of obey by Online Etymology Dictionary
See something there?
Guess what, Faith comes by...... hearing!
But it is not simply hearing or listening to, without taking any notice and if need be [which is usually the case with things from God] doing that which we have heard. hence, "carry out the commands of (someone); submit to (a command, rule, etc.); be ruled by,"
Did you see that? Doing that which we have heard = obey or obedience.
So faith, a doing word, comes from/by hearing (obeying-style-hearing).
Back to Abraham, by faith, he believed and we know that he did, as in, he did that which he heard (to do)... and, it was counted to him as righteousness. Groovy stuff, if i may use such modern terminology.
Let's go now to the Garden, that beautiful place we might all long to be able to at least visit, yes?
God told Adam to not eat of the fruit of the tree in the midst of the Garden, and we know what happened. Adam did not obey God. He took no notice in real terms and action. BUT..... BUT ..... he did listen to and believe a liar and his dirty lie... and we know that sin and death entered at that moment.
Obeying God is Life.
How do we obey?
A quick look at Jesus.... What did He do? What did He speak? That which He heard from the Father.
Jesus was OBEDIENT unto death, the death of the Cross. He listened to and did what He heard, all the way, even at the Garden He did not turn away but prayed like none other ever has but submitted to His Father. Wow!
So, for us, how do we do the works? Jesus did the works. He lived out before us all, faith.
We are to listen and hear (he who has ears let him hear) and do that which we have heard (from God).
If we or any others do not obey, we can not be walking by faith.
Faith, is not a magical power to get things. It is obedience (in action to that which we have heard.)
A simple picture from science: An apple obeys gravity when tossed into the air (unless a passing gull snaffles it! ) But remember , apples do not have ears, either real live floppy ones nor those we might call spiritual. But, they do as the rules dictate and always did, long before some chap discovered that rule in a way that could be written down and applied. The difference is that the fruit of an apple is not empowered or equipped with senses or the like and will not 'disobey'.
the fruit in us can be either obedient unto life and righteousness or.... rotten and full of worms.
Faith is the working of itself in love. We love God? We keep His commandments, which are not grievous.
God gave because He loved, in other words, Love is for giving. It is an action word and if we love God we will listen to what He says and do accordingly. We will give him the honour and obedience over and above any other. That is faith with and by works, or, working faith, doing faith.
Trying to muster enough faith to believe you can receive? Forget it.
Because you believe, you do, and that is the working of faith..... and true love.
With God, He always has a receivable part of His Commands and Promises, and so we don;t need to get enough faith to receive... we need to follow directions and do... and in doing we recieve ... even if we can not yet see how... like Abraham... being old and Sarah too. He believed. He then did, because he believed and as part of his believing... a living faith..... faith by and with works.
guess what... if Abraham did not and had not.... we would not be.
did Abraham receive?
by the way, who does God talk to?
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him
Hebrews 11:5-6
Praise the LORD!
Bless you ....><>
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Loyal
Yes it does . And you are right . Forgiveness is one of the Greatest Gifts . It is most nessicary in any healing and growth.
I think vastly misunderstood, as is suffering . Yes there is blessings through struggle . Something for another conversation.
When it comes to doing the will of God, i like to think im not doing it because i have to, or that i should do it. Rather, i do it because i love God
Loyal
Wow that is really good. Maybe i will step aside and let you have at it . Lol.
I know what im saying in my heart , but expressing / explaining it seems difficult sometimes .
Loyal
The greatest lesson Abraham learned, and it took him a long time to get it. God promised him that his descendants would be more numerous as the stars in the sky, and as the sand along the shore. Abraham took matters into his own hands and failed.
The promise(s) of God (AKA the Word of God) is where our faith comes from. Where is faith suppose to be put once we have it?
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Abraham learned that the only person who could perform his faith was the one who promised him (God)
Think about it, if God promises you something, and that promise gives you the faith to believe it, and then that person who promises it does it for you how cool is that?
If Jesus requires us to have faith in him, and he gives us that faith to have faith in him how could you ever go wrong?
The promise(s) of God (AKA the Word of God) is where our faith comes from. Where is faith suppose to be put once we have it?
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Abraham learned that the only person who could perform his faith was the one who promised him (God)
Think about it, if God promises you something, and that promise gives you the faith to believe it, and then that person who promises it does it for you how cool is that?
If Jesus requires us to have faith in him, and he gives us that faith to have faith in him how could you ever go wrong?
Loyal
Of course the flip side of many of those verses is...
"Let "US" hold fast..." ... "without wavering"...
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings B-A-C,
Absolutely!
"Let "US" hold fast..." as in, 'Our Father....'
and
"without wavering" like Noah, 120 years without wavering.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:1
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
1Corinthians 15:58
Bless you ....><>
Absolutely!
"Let "US" hold fast..." as in, 'Our Father....'
and
"without wavering" like Noah, 120 years without wavering.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:1
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
1Corinthians 15:58
Bless you ....><>