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Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

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Then why did He say in Matthew 24:33 (ESV), "So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates." He had just told them what will happen at the tribulation. It will be a sign preceeding His coming.
John


The quote is: " When you see these things.."


Not : " Watch for these things.."



The natural conclusion of the scripture is: it will be plainly obvious at that time.

Jesus' words are spirit and they are life John 6:63. His word is alive.
It will be alive to the one who recalls it, at the appropriate time. When they see these things..


LoJ
 
Member
It is true that the words "When you see these things" is not a command to watch. Instead the words assume that Christ's followers will see the events of the Great Tribulation. Also, Rev. 7:14 is clear evidence that they will be in that Great Tribulation. Rev. 7:14 (ESV) "And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The normal meaning of the words of Matthw 24 tell us the Church will experience it.

The rapture of the Church will be later.

John
 
Member
Well all I can say is if you believe in the pre-trib rapture you better be going, it is geting late...
What makes us so much better than the Christians in China and other countries who are suffering for their faith. Ask them if they believe in the pre-trib rapture.

Blessings and Shalom,
debbi rennier
 
Member
reply

Young John, Who are the ones who are going to was their robes? It couldn't be the Jews and others who have accepted Christ, could it?


Peace, Golfjack
 
Member
Well all I can say is if you believe in the pre-trib rapture you better be going, it is geting late...
What makes us so much better than the Christians in China and other countries who are suffering for their faith. Ask them if they believe in the pre-trib rapture.

Blessings and Shalom,
debbi rennier

I'm not sure I understand your statement, but to clarify one thought here.
We all suffer at some degree for our faith, the tribulation is Gods wrath upon an unbelieving world.
Totally different from our walk in the Lord, and Gods wrath as in Revelation.
We are not appointed unto his wrath....so therefore he takes us out pre-trib.

And yes, it is getting late, the time is at hand, and soon now our Lord will call his bride home. Praise his name forever
 
Member
Yes we all do suffer for our faith, but tell me gracealone have you been beaten for your faith? Yes, I agree God's wrath does not abide on us, but it does not mean will not go through the tribualtion. I believe I am not just going to be sitting and then I'll fly away. Why would Jesus take out His soliders when He needs them the most...

Blessings & Shalom,
debbi
 
Member
Yes we all do suffer for our faith, but tell me gracealone have you been beaten for your faith? Yes, I agree God's wrath does not abide on us, but it does not mean will not go through the tribualtion. I believe I am not just going to be sitting and then I'll fly away. Why would Jesus take out His soliders when He needs them the most...

I have been abused for my faith, twice threatened by choking, another time saved by God intervention from a man who thought to kill me.

The Bible says we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, what do you think this means, except for what it says literally?

Again I say quoting Gods word, we are not appointed unto wrath, and the Gospel has already been preached.
Those who are in the tribulation know themselves they are experiencing the wrath of God, then too, there will be two witnesses in Jerusalem that for a time cannot be killed, they are witnesses of God... Rev.11:
 
Member
If it is true that the post trib rapture is the most common view among evangelicals, of course that doesn't mean that it must be true. The question must be, What does the Bible say? No other authority is as important as the Bible. I ask, "What is the biblical basis for the pretrib rapture view? I have never heard a satisfactory answer to that question.

John
 
Member
If it is true that the post trib rapture is the most common view among evangelicals, of course that doesn't mean that it must be true. The question must be, What does the Bible say? No other authority is as important as the Bible. I ask, "What is the biblical basis for the pretrib rapture view? I have never heard a satisfactory answer to that question.

John
Very true, No other authority is as important as the Bible.
Pre-trib is evident, clearly in Gods word.

In order to believe any other way you have to tear out the page from the Bible in 1Thes. 5:9 for one, and I wont go over all the others.

Chad has posted an awesome forum on the subject already.

Our fellowship has gone through the entire Revelation, and Daniel three times line upon line.
Daniel, and many others, and have seen all the pieces fit perfectly.
To go any other route you have to ignore many passages.
I pray we can one day be like minded on this, for God has promised, and it grieves him to see so much division.
 
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Member
post trib rapture

it does not mean will not go through the tribualtion

Intellectual, logical, pragmatic thinking is in order here.

Please read Revelation 21:9

"And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues,
and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

We see here and understand, the angel is holding the vials, or bowls, of the last plagues..
which is to be poured out on the earth for judgement Rev. 16:1.

John is shown the bride.. now also.. for the first time.. called the wife of the Lamb.

The wife of the bride is shown to John and the bowls, or vials, have not been poured out on the earth! They are full still!


We can come up with one of two conclusions about the "church":


She is taken up in the middle..


or She is taken up at the beginning..


of the 7 year tribulation period.

Revelation 21:9 reveals to us, it cannot be after.



LoJ
 
Member
I guess that depends on if one counts the saints who have gone home before us as also being the Bride (2,000 years worth).

There is also this:

<DIR><DIR>1Th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: </DIR><DIR>1Th 4:17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. </DIR><DIR></DIR><DIR></DIR><DIR></DIR><DIR></DIR><DIR></DIR><DIR></DIR><DIR></DIR><DIR></DIR>
These verses seem to indicate the chruch being caugth up at Christ's return (Jesus descending from heaven).

</DIR>
 
Member
Thank you, Gracealone, for your answer. I asked for the biblical basis of your view, and you give one verse. 1 Thes. 5:9 (ESV) reads "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." But please look at another verse.

Rev. 12:12 (ESV) says, "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!" This wrath is directed towad Christians.

In Rev. 7:14 we see a great number of Christians who are "coming out of the Great Tribulation." Since this is an ongoing process, not the action of a single moment like the rapture. They apparently were in the process of being killed by the beast, the antichrist. This killing is consistent wth another verse. Rev. 13:7 (ESV) "Also it (the beast) was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,"

Your interpretation of 1 Thess. 5:9 does not really help in trying to supply a biblical basis for a pretrib rapture.

John
 
Member
Thank you, Gracealone, for your answer. I asked for the biblical basis of your view, and you give one verse. 1 Thes. 5:9 (ESV) reads "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." But please look at another verse.

Rev. 12:12 (ESV) says, "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!" This wrath is directed towad Christians.

In Rev. 7:14 we see a great number of Christians who are "coming out of the Great Tribulation." Since this is an ongoing process, not the action of a single moment like the rapture. They apparently were in the process of being killed by the beast, the antichrist. This killing is consistent wth another verse. Rev. 13:7 (ESV) "Also it (the beast) was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,"

Your interpretation of 1 Thess. 5:9 does not really help in trying to supply a biblical basis for a pretrib rapture.

John

The Christians coming out of the tribulation are tribulation Saints, not the church.
By the time this is being said, the Church has left the earth, and the church age ended.
The Church as we know it, from the time we were first called Christian in Antioch , to the rapture, is the bride of Christ.
Totally different than the saints mentioned in Revelation, and also different than the old testament saints.
WE are called the bride of Christ.

The seven year period of the tribulation, is a time we are with the Lord in Heaven celebrating a marriage feast, and in Chapter 19: I believe, we come back with him to rule,and reign for 1000 years.

Quote:
Rev. 12:12 (ESV) says, "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!" This wrath is directed towad Christians.

You are right in this to a point:
These are those who come out of the tribulation, and are martyred for their faith, but not the Church, but tribulation saints.

May God give us understanding, I pray in Jesus name. amen
 
Member
You say the Tribulation saints are not part of the Church. Where does the Bible say that? Aren't you assuming what you are asked to prove? I think all born again people, the saints, are part of the Church. There is one body. Jesus has one Bride.

John
 
Member
You say the Tribulation saints are not part of the Church. Where does the Bible say that? Aren't you assuming what you are asked to prove? I think all born again people, the saints, are part of the Church. There is one body. Jesus has one Bride.

John
Amen John.
 
Member
read Revelation.....The first 3 chapters are to the churches.
The church age is from the time at Antioch where we were first called Christian (not saints alone, but Christian) to the church being taken out at the rapture.
During the tribulation those who come to believe are called Saints alone, not christian.
The church is the body of Christ, but we were never called his bride, or a church until after his ascension, and the events at Antioch.
The church age is from Antioch, and the time of the rapture.
This period alone is the believer called Christian, or the bride of Christ.
We who have come to Jesus have an unique relationship with our King of Kings, we are his bride. Revelation 19:6

I would exhort you to read chads break down of these events, and read the scripture concerning them..........

Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture
by Kent Crockett

Let me first say that our fellowship as Christians is not based upon the timing of the rapture, but upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Some have accused those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture as "escapists," trying to avoid all trouble or persecution. On the contrary, the Church always has been and always will be persecuted as long as we are in the world, but this is not the same as the wrath of God poured out during the Tribulation. We believe the rapture occurs before the Tribulation because scriptures overwhelmingly support a pre-tribulation rapture, as opposed to the a-millennial, post-millennial, and post-tribulation theories.

The following is a look at 16 scriptural evidence that indicate the rapture will be Pre-Tribulation. ("Pre-tribulation" rapture means Jesus will gather those who believe in Him together in heaven before the Seven Year Tribulation starts.)

Evidence #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection

The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.
.
Evidence #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection

This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Evidence #3: Two different pictures are painted

In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

Evidence #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day

Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

Evidence #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)

The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

Evidence #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)

A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

Evidence #7: The 24 elders have their crowns

After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

Evidence #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)

The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

Evidence #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)

Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

Evidence #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment

When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41) says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

Evidence #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first

First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

Evidence #12: Jesus returns from the wedding
 
Member
Gracealone: Someone reading what you have written here will think that I believe ideas that I did not propose and do not believe.

If you think you have biblical evidence to support a pretrib rapture view, I suggest you send your ideas one at a time. If I were to answer all the points that you sent, I would have to write a book. One point at a time would be fine. Thank you for your cooperation.

John
 
Member
You say the Tribulation saints are not part of the Church. Where does the Bible say that? Aren't you assuming what you are asked to prove? I think all born again people, the saints, are part of the Church. There is one body. Jesus has one Bride.

John
First you show me where the saints in the old Testament are called Christian. (?)
Acts says in Acts 11:26 The Disciples were first called Christian in Antioch.

Then go from there and show me where they are called the church, after Revelation 4:
Revelation 4:1 Says......After these things, referring to the letters to the churches. So,the church age ends ,After these things.... John is called to come up hither, which is a picture of the Rapture, or if you prefer the "catching away. "
The Saints that are saved after this time, are not called the Church, but saints, and there will be many saved during this time of the tribulation, but the Church as such has been caught up,and away.
I have to stop here:

So you understand, I may not be in for awhile.
My daughter in Denver has cancer, and I may be leaving here ,for there, soon.

Also, I am not trying to fight with you, but share a wonderful truth.
I wish we were able to share studies, or even the location of the study of Revelation we just went through, but as I understand we are not suppose to ?
Simply saying, I am pre-trib, and believe with all my heart,from the word of God that we, meaning all Christians from the time at Antioch to the catching away of the church, have an unique position of being the Bride of Christ.
The Old Testament Saints have their unique position, as well as the tribulation Saints have their unique position, but are not the bride of Christ......We have been caught up,and away from the wrath of God.
 
Member
Long tread lol i guess we will have to wait and see here, as far as a rapture separate from the actual second coming, its going to be difficult to implement with or without scripture. There are two many views here as well, and all claim to have their proof text for these beliefs. Did you know that there are some who teach that the rapture and second coming are all in the past? We need to be careful on what we believe here or teach, as prophecy is very hard to interpret...

God bless
 
Member
Long tread lol i guess we will have to wait and see here, as far as a rapture separate from the actual second coming, its going to be difficult to implement with or without scripture. There are two many views here as well, and all claim to have their proof text for these beliefs. Did you know that there are some who teach that the rapture and second coming are all in the past? We need to be careful on what we believe here or teach, as prophecy is very hard to interpret...

God bless
Amen x 10 my brother.:shade:
There have been a lot of wise men over the last 2,000 years and it is a safe bet that even they are in for at least a few surprises when it comes to interpretation of prophecy.
 
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