Evidence Beyond Question

[amadeus2]

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[TD="class: xl23, width: 740, bgcolor: transparent"]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->In what people call apologetics, they usually use certain things as pieces of evidence to support their own case or to show that the other guy is in error. For people bearing the label of Christian, the most common source of evidence is probably the Bible or scripture. Of course, we know the Catholic Church (and perhaps others) hold pretty strongly to other evidences outside of scripture.

As probably all of us know, there are, at least, many hundreds (some indicate as many as 30,000) different Christian groups or churches, most, if not all of them, based, at least, in part on the Bible. Yet, we know that they have some very contradictory viewpoints... many supposedly "proven" by scripture. Each of the larger groups will have knowlegeable people who are able to provide what they consider, almost absolute proof that their supported beliefs or doctrines are the correct ones rather than those of other group with different views.

Probably many of these groups will declare they have been led by the Holy Ghost into the truth that they hold. This is fine, but when two people holding apparently contradictory viewpoints or doctrines each claim to have been led to his particular belief by the Holy Ghost, how is a person to decide, which of the two, if either, is what thus "saith the Lord"?

I have some answers of my own to this question, but they are my answers (at least in part as per the Holy Ghost) and they also very likely be opposed by others.

I would hope to receive some definite feedback on this without a more specific initial input on my part. As I see that some others are, (or even one is), interested enough to open this up, I will undoubtedly put in my 2 cents as well.

Thanks and give God the glory for anything He adds to us here!


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[B-A-C]

Joh 20:29 Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."


We are saved by faith. If there was "evidence beyond question" it would no longer be faith. It requires faith in an unknown unprovable element to be saved.
The Holy Spirit will never contradict existing Bible doctrine, and in fact will never bring any "new" doctrine.
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

If the Bible isn't your authority, if you don't believe it is the Word of God, then what is your authority? What do you believe in?
There are hundreds of other doctrines out there to choose from, and they all disagree with each other at some major point.

 

[Boanerges]

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[TD="class: xl23, width: 740, bgcolor: transparent"]<!-- google_ad_section_start -->In what people call apologetics, they usually use certain things as pieces of evidence to support their own case or to show that the other guy is in error. For people bearing the label of Christian, the most common source of evidence is probably the Bible or scripture. Of course, we know the Catholic Church (and perhaps others) hold pretty strongly to other evidences outside of scripture.

As probably all of us know, there are, at least, many hundreds (some indicate as many as 30,000) different Christian groups or churches, most, if not all of them, based, at least, in part on the Bible. Yet, we know that they have some very contradictory viewpoints... many supposedly "proven" by scripture. Each of the larger groups will have knowlegeable people who are able to provide what they consider, almost absolute proof that their supported beliefs or doctrines are the correct ones rather than those of other group with different views.

Probably many of these groups will declare they have been led by the Holy Ghost into the truth that they hold. This is fine, but when two people holding apparently contradictory viewpoints or doctrines each claim to have been led to his particular belief by the Holy Ghost, how is a person to decide, which of the two, if either, is what thus "saith the Lord"?

I have some answers of my own to this question, but they are my answers (at least in part as per the Holy Ghost) and they also very likely be opposed by others.

I would hope to receive some definite feedback on this without a more specific initial input on my part. As I see that some others are, (or even one is), interested enough to open this up, I will undoubtedly put in my 2 cents as well.

Thanks and give God the glory for anything He adds to us here!


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I understand what you are saying but am not entirely sure what your question is or what you are looking for.
That being said I would like to through out a few random thoughts:

Many would take one side of scriptural evidence and make it doctrine. We can easily see this in Jehovah's Witness doctrine and their position on the very nature of Christ- it is viewed entirely from one aspect of the Word while ignoring what they choose not to accept. One scripture should always be seen in the light of other scripture and no "inconvenient " words discarded or modified to suit doctrine.

Biblically based scholarship does not always seek to discredit other sources but Christian's do generally agree that the bible is the standard by which the variety of other evidence be measured. I for example(as a young person) grew up in a huge denomination that regularly "transgresses or violates the commandment of God by it's traditions and extra biblical teachings".
.

The church itself is composed of born again believers who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God Himself. Jesus said that unless a man is born again he cannot see (fathom, envision, or even understand the premise of) the Kingdom of God. Any others are simply trying to teach a blind man what color look like.

The older I get the more I am convinced that the whole body of Christ may not agree on everything doctrinally until His very return. There are many flavors, so to speak of Christianity (different members in the body) and while some tenets may be different we are called to unity in the Spirit, in Love and in our mission to share Christ with the lost world.

 

[amadeus2]

Many would take one side of scriptural evidence and make it doctrine. We can easily see this in Jehovah's Witness doctrine and their position on the very nature of Christ- it is viewed entirely from one aspect of the Word while ignoring what they choose not to accept. One scripture should always be seen in the light of other scripture and no "inconvenient " words discarded or modified to suit doctrine.

There are some as you say who focus on one particular point, or points, with a already established belief, which constitutes their essential doctrine, or doctrines. They may continue to read and study scripture, but they then have their already established essentials in mind as they go through the Bible looking for "new" things perhaps in a measure, but they are also looking for additional support for what they already believe. Their attitude may have the effect of quenching the Spirit, which would direct them into a closer walk with the Lord... or even A walk with the Lord.

Boanerges: Biblically based scholarship does not always seek to discredit other sources but Christian's do generally agree that the bible is the standard by which the variety of other evidence be measured. I for example(as a young person) grew up in a huge denomination that regularly "transgresses or violates the commandment of God by it's traditions and extra biblical teachings".

I agree that we have available this standard: the Bible. In this we have more than many who came before us as we see in many among those in the OT who did walk with God. I probably belonged to the same huge denomination as you in my youth (age 68 now).

Boanerges: The church itself is composed of born again believers who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God Himself. Jesus said that unless a man is born again he cannot see (fathom, envision, or even understand the premise of) the Kingdom of God. Any others are simply trying to teach a blind man what color look like.

Do you ever suspect that some people who claim to have the Holy Spirit are deceived? That is, they really believe that they do, but they do not understand what they are missing.

Boanerges:The older I get the more I am convinced that the whole body of Christ may not agree on everything doctrinally until His very return. There are many flavors, so to speak of Christianity (different members in the body) and while some tenets may be different we are called to unity in the Spirit, in Love and in our mission to share Christ with the lost world.

I am convinced that while doctrine is important, it is not the most important thing. The most important thing is charity or love as described in I Cor 13. Can a person not have a doctrine, or doctrines wrong and still manifest the fruits of the Spirit by they are to be known?

Back to my own question: I believe that all of the truth that God has for us is available in men, but no one man has all of it, unless he is already an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer. (I have not definitely met one yet.)

The most important thing is to be in His name, to be in His Spirit, which is really to be in His Love and to manifest as per I Cor 13.

 

[amadeus2]

We are saved by faith. If there was "evidence beyond question" it would no longer be faith. It requires faith in an unknown unprovable element to be saved.

I agree!

BAC: The Holy Spirit will never contradict existing Bible doctrine, and in fact will never bring any "new" doctrine.
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

I believe that the Holy Spirit will change or correct doctrine that is in error within a person, if the person is open to what the Spirit is saying. "New' doctrine? No there is nothing new under the sun and, God never changes, and His Word never changes. Men, however, who hold only a measure of God or His Word in their hearts can be changed in a positive way in the eyes of God, can they not?

BAC: If the Bible isn't your authority, if you don't believe it is the Word of God, then what is your authority? What do you believe in?

My authority is the Word of God, which is alive. The Bible, I believe, contains God Word, but it must be quickened by His Spirit in the heart of a man to be effective in the man. Someone who is not eating the scripture regularly and having what he eats quickened regularly by the Spirit may end up starving to death.

There are hundreds of other doctrines out there to choose from, and they all disagree with each other at some major point.

And is there nothing in your own held doctrines that may be in error?

I have changed too many times over the years to say that God will never change me again.

 

[Stan53]

In my view, the biggest issue that divides Christians IS how they read and interpret scripture. The translations are also a big part of the problem. We must remember that the Bible is basically in Greek. There is also no autographs(original manuscripts or versions)
It is therefore incumbent on teachers, professors and translators to be RESPONSIBLE in properly conveying the Greek text into our modern English language and vernacular. We need to find out which ones those are and use them. Personally I used the NIV, NASB and HCSB. I just started using the new MOUNCE Interlinear NT. The Mounce father and son team are the preeminent Greek scholars and translators of our day.
The next important factor in reading scripture is CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Don't cherry pick unless the context warrants it. The next important factor is proper hermenuetical exegesis. Look it up if you're not sure what it means. The one thing we need to avoid doing is using eisegesis when reading and studying the Bible. Again please look it up if you don't know what it means. One thing that a lot of people have trouble with is the style of any particular text. In other words, is it literal, or allegory, or metaphorical? For instance, some of the biggest gaps in understanding and agreeing on scripture, is whether people see Gen 1 & 2 as literal or allegorical. Maintaining these basics will NOT eliminate disagreements, but it will sure reduce them significantly.
What we need more than anything, is the Holy Spirit in our lives to help us imbibe the Word of God and bring it to our remembrance when needed. As God's Word percolates in our being, it begins to become real and meaningful. This of course does not happen right away. It really involves years of study. Paul, who was already a Pharisee, studied for another 14 years, after Jesus called him, before he started his ministry to the Gentiles.
May GOD's word be true, and EVERY man a liar.

:shade:

 

[amadeus2]

In my view, the biggest issue that divides Christians IS how they read and interpret scripture. The translations are also a big part of the problem. We must remember that the Bible is basically in Greek. There is also no autographs(original manuscripts or versions)

Yes, how they read and interpret! As you say at toward the end of the post it is the Holy Spirit that makes anything at all possible. This is particularly so in understanding the message God has for the reader of scripture.

Stan53: It is therefore incumbent on teachers, professors and translators to be RESPONSIBLE in properly conveying the Greek text into our modern English language and vernacular. We need to find out which ones those are and use them. Personally I used the NIV, NASB and HCSB. I just started using the new MOUNCE Interlinear NT. The Mounce father and son team are the preeminent Greek scholars and translators of our day.

For those of us without personal knowledge of the original languages (most of us) and without being able to see the original writings ourselves (all of us), we must trust God to provide us all that is needed to receive all that He wants us to receive. What man can we always trust? I have been a translator/interpreter (not original Bible languages) so I understand the difficulties involved in expressing the meaning of the author into another language without losing anything. Fortunately, the Holy Ghost is willing to help us no matter how bad the translation may be.

Stan53: The next important factor in reading scripture is CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Don't cherry pick unless the context warrants it.

Sometimes the proper context is the place that the verse fits in the live situation to which God applies it to explain something to us. This context may not necessarily apply to another person's apparently similar context.

Stan53: The next important factor is proper hermenuetical exegesis. Look it up if you're not sure what it means. The one thing we need to avoid doing is using eisegesis when reading and studying the Bible. Again please look it up if you don't know what it means.

God's order is always in order and it is not necessary to even understand the words you used (hermeneutical exegesis) to do something in His order. Even a naturally illiterate person with a below average I.Q. is able to follow the lead of the Holy Ghost. Often the problem for people with more education and more reference books and several Bible versions available is that they are too "rich" to fit through the "eye of the needle".

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

Stan53: One thing that a lot of people have trouble with is the style of any particular text. In other words, is it literal, or allegory, or metaphorical? For instance, some of the biggest gaps in understanding and agreeing on scripture, is whether people see Gen 1 & 2 as literal or allegorical. Maintaining these basics will NOT eliminate disagreements, but it will sure reduce them significantly.

A particular text may be all of the above. Because we have previously found an answer or been given an answer regarding the message from God in a verse does not mean that it is the only possible answer. We need to be careful not to limit God.

Stan53: What we need more than anything, is the Holy Spirit in our lives to help us imbibe the Word of God and bring it to our remembrance when needed.

With this I agree!

Stan53: As God's Word percolates in our being, it begins to become real and meaningful. This of course does not happen right away. It really involves years of study. Paul, who was already a Pharisee, studied for another 14 years, after Jesus called him, before he started his ministry to the Gentiles.
May GOD's word be true, and EVERY man a liar.

Even a coffee pot finishes its works in time. I would never start a person off in Christ by telling them you will need to study for years. While that may be so for some, some will get closer to God in a day than others will ever get after attending church meetings and studying all of their lives. Remember the thief on the cross.

 

[Stan53]

For those of us without personal knowledge of the original languages (most of us) and without being able to see the original writings ourselves (all of us), we must trust God to provide us all that is needed to receive all that He wants us to receive. What man can we always trust? I have been a translator/interpreter (not original Bible languages) so I understand the difficulties involved in expressing the meaning of the author into another language without losing anything. Fortunately, the Holy Ghost is willing to help us no matter how bad the translation may be.

Exactly...like I said, we must trust for the most part, unless God leads us to look further, that the current modern English versions of the Bible will be more accurate at conveying the words and thoughts in the Greek manuscripts, into our current vernacular.

Sometimes the proper context is the place that the verse fits in the live situation to which God applies it to explain something to us. This context may not necessarily apply to another person's apparently similar context.

Context is IN the scripture. Application is how it can affect our lives. Scripture can have application to us personally, without us being in the same context as the verses are. The two are not diametricly opposed, however context is the main factor.

God's order is always in order and it is not necessary to even understand the words you used (hermeneutical exegesis) to do something in His order. Even a naturally illiterate person with a below average I.Q. is able to follow the lead of the Holy Ghost. Often the problem for people with more education and more reference books and several Bible versions available is that they are too "rich" to fit through the "eye of the needle".

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

Yes and that is why I said to look up the meaning. I'm not allowed to post links yet. Unfortunately your analogy is OUT of context in this application, although I understand how you are trying to apply it.

Luke 12:47-48 should be read together as follows;
“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

In this context I agree whole heartily that we will be disciplined much for what we do know, and asked for more as we walk in Christ.

A particular text may be all of the above. Because we have previously found an answer or been given an answer regarding the message from God in a verse does not mean that it is the only possible answer. We need to be careful not to limit God.

I agree, but only to the extent that it has a personal application to us. There can ONLY be one meaning in God's word.

Even a coffee pot finishes its works in time. I would never start a person off in Christ by telling them you will need to study for years. While that may be so for some, some will get closer to God in a day than others will ever get after attending church meetings and studying all of their lives. Remember the thief on the cross.

Sorry I don't get this colloquialism. A new convert must be nurtured and mentored. You start them off by emphasizing the importance of reading and studying God's Word, as well as their devotional and prayer life. In my walk, it took me a long time to learn that. This is now why I feel it is so important to learn early on. 2 Timothy 2:15, 2 Peter 1:5-8, and of course 1 Peter 3:15.

Ahh yes the thief on the cross. Nice analogy but it will never happen to anyone else, so not an extremely applicable one. :wink:

Thanks for you responses.

 

[amadeus2]

I believe ultimately we must trust God. A man’s mind, even one of the caliber of Einstein, is limited. Paul himself gave us a good example of thelimitations of a good mind even with a good education. He had both, yet before he met Jesus on the road to Damascus, he persecuted God’s people believing hewas doing right.

I believe that no version of theBible, without the Holy Spirit, can save anyone. Have you never met an atheistwho knew the Bible better than many Christians?

I believe, rather than finding theanswer in the context of the scripture itself the answer is in the proper timingand application Word of God. The timing of things for men is described in Ecclesiastes 3 and the determination of thecorrect time to do or not to do is as per the direction of the Holy Ghost in aperson’s heart.

“But let your communication be, Yea,yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.” Matt 5:37

The yea or the nay is all we have to say, unless we are led by the Holy Ghost in every word we speak and in everything we do.


So what does a person do who is unableto look up the meanings do? Do we suppose the Peter, the apostle, had access to a concordance and a Bible dictionary and all of the other references to which you and I many others on this forum have access? The most he likely had was the OT and even that is indefinite, isn’t it?

Instead of referring to the people inscripture, who had little or nothing of what you and I may have available,consider this real life example: Notlong ago I met a Christian from Guatemala who spoke only Spanish and was completely illiterate in that language as well. He had better things to sayabout the things of God than some who have access to the references we havementioned. He could not even read the Bible in his own language!


Is there only one meaning in God’sWord! Who has that single meaning for any one verse? A Catholic priest? A Doctor of Divinity in the local Baptist Church? Stephen, who was chosen, ineffect, to waited on tables until he was stoned to death?

Jesus had all of the answers needed when they were needed, but… who else does? The Pentecostal preacher, the Methodist minister, you or I, etc?

Did David understand the application of the psalms he wrote to our problems in this society of today?
You used the word percolates so I used the coffeepot. As with the coffee pot percolating the coffee there is or should be an end in view: Ephesians 4:13-14.

As to the thief on the cross (actually both thieves, theone who repented and the one who did not) being the only one in that situation,you may be literally correct. But… but have you ever witnessed a death bedrepentance? Have you ever witnessed to a person who refused to hear or consideryour words and died naturally, apparently, before he had another opportunity?

Could a person’s last moment decision for or against what he understood not be accepted by God who is no respecter of persons and whonever changes?

When we have access to a Bible, we are able to read and reference books as well as knowlegeable teachers and preachers, we surely should use them, but we cannot use that which is not available. Will God not supply the needs of those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, but are missing some or all of those above mentioned resources? Let us not limit God!


II Tim 2:15 tells us to study to be approved by God, notto learn truth. The study is to done to obey God. The learning of truth comesby means of the Holy Ghost as per John 14:26. The Holy Ghost will quicken(bring to Life) in us the words that we have consumed out of obedience when they are needed (as determined by God) rather than we want them.


The other verses you mention also apply, but again, without the working of the God’s Love in us through the Holy Ghost, the knowledge of those verses will come to nothing at all in the eyes of God. (ICor 13:2)


[/SIZE]

 

[Stan53]

Yes Amadeus I agree. Not sure why you're yelling this but as the OP, you brought it up. One of my points was to trust God in the way He protects and brings about new, more accurate translations, and to use the tools we now have available to us. We can't very well compare ourselves to Apostles who were particularly called to their ministry, so we do the best we can.
I'm really not looking to argue with you on these small issues so I'll just leave it at that.
We agree that the Holy Spirit is the most important tool we have in understanding God's word. The rest follow in importance.
God Bless

 

[amadeus2]

I did not intend to argue Stan, merely to clarify where I was on it. Was I yelling? That was not my intention either. I only just started posted here recently even though I have long been a member. I do not read most of the posts because they are printed so small and neither my eyes nor my brain easily read them. The formats on this forum are different than those on other forums. I am attempting to adapt myself. I do apologize for seeming to come on too strong and for "yelling"!