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Eternity in Hell
- Thread starter Cody
- Start date
Tusk Barnes
Member
Sometimes I go out to a shopping center and look at all the people around me. I see how some are acting and what they are wearing. I wonder to myself, how many of these people will go to hell? And it breaks my heart when I realize more of them will go to hell than heaven.
Matthew 7:14
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
This is the reason most in the world is going to hell. They look at the world and all of its pleasures and choose the path that is easiest for them. They do not want to follow the narrow path, because they choose worldly things over Jesus, the man that loved them and died for them. What they need to realize that everything in this world is going to pass away.
Actually, the reason most people in the world are going to hell is because God created hell for the purpose of sending people there.
Luke 21:33 "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."
The only thing they will have left when they die is their relationship with Jesus Christ. They might be having fun right now, but one thing is for sure. We all are going to live forever. The question is, where? There are two places a person can go after life and that is heaven or hell. If you go to heaven you will live forever with no more pain or sorrow. On the other hand, if you choose to deny God's Holy Word, you will go to hell and burn forever.
Is a relationship with Jesus Christ even Biblical? And if "HEAVEN and Earth shall pass away," as Jesus just said, then what do you mean when you say the saved will to go to Heaven to live there forever? How can they live in Heaven forever if Heaven shall pass away?
Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."
or
Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
It is sad that people let their pride take them to hell. Most the time they say "a loving God wouldn't send me to hell." The fact is they are the person sending themselves to hell. God does not want them to go to hell and that is why he sent his only son to die on the cross for the world's sins.
If nothing happens outside of God's sovereign will, than doesn't that mean that potentially, no one would have to go to hell, if that were God's will? But people will go to hell, yes? So this must be God's will. God is willing some (in fact, most as you pointed out) go to hell. If God had never created hell with the purpose of it being a "holding tank" for those who have displeased Him, there would be no reason for anybody to be sent there. He couldn't really send people to a place He hadn't made, right?
And the idea that He sent His Son (Himself even) to die on a cross to pay for our sins, sounds like He's paying the penalty for a debt which He also created.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
I don't understand people these days. They say they have their own relationship with God and he understands them. They think they love God when the Bible points out that they do not.
Believing in and loving are not the same thing. Jesus pointed this out when He said that not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord," would be saved. So apparently, according to one Scripture, belief is all that is necessary to have everlasting life. But then that's also not exactly ALL that is necessary...
Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
If sin entered through one man to all men, and sin was vanquished by one man for all men, then why do we still have sin? I may be misunderstanding you, but if Christ is the second Adam, as Paul states, then why are not all saved at the hand of Jesus, as all were sinners at the hand of Adam?
2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
If you do not accept Jesus Christ in your life and you die, you will go to hell and burn forever. There will be no way out and no more chances to repent. The Bible tells us that man is appointed to die once and then face judgment. It also says, no man knows what hour the Lord will come.
Why exactly does God demand an eternal and infinite penalty for finite sins in our 60-some odd years on this planet?
Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
Wait do we exist eternally or do we die? You're confusing me.
Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."
So it is your choice, where do you want to go when you die? God has made it so simple for us. All you have to do is believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins. Then show love towards him by obeying his commandments. I pray that this post may of helped you to see the reason to accept Jesus in your life. I do not want anyone to go to hell, that is the reason I posted this. So please do not let your pride take you to hell.
This does not sound so simple. I thought this gift was supposed to be free and given by grace without works. Now we're having to do things (believe and love and ask for forgiveness and obey) in order to merit this free gift? I don't want anyone going to hell either, but shouldn't we ask God to just forgive them instead of sending people to hell for not asking for forgiveness? Curious.
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Actually, the reason most people in the world are going to hell is because God created hell for the purpose of sending people there.
Got some scripture ?
Tusk Barnes
Member
Got some scripture ?
Yes.
Matthew 25:41 says that God created Hell for the devil and his angels. But we also know that God knows all things (See Psalm 139). So He surely knew Adam would sin, man would fall, and that the writing of His Word in Revelation 14:11 (Where sinners are depicted as ceaselessly tormented) was coming.
God was certainly not ignorant, being outside of time, that although He prepared Hell for the devil and his angels, He would be sending man there too. He was not taken by surprise by this, for nothing happens outside of God's sovereign will. In essence, God wasn't unprepared for men, women, and children to be heading to hell also. So while the Bible doesn't explicitly say that God created it for the purpose of sending man their, we know that God knew He would be sending people there.
And if this wasn't His will, then it wouldn't happen. Since it does happen (or will happen, depending on your millennial doctrine), we can safely assume that it is His will, and thus hell was created for the devil, his angels, and mankind as well.
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SpiritLedEd
Member
And if this wasn't His will, then it wouldn't happen. Since it does happen (or will happen, depending on your millennial doctrine), we can safely assume that it is His will, and thus hell was created for the devil, his angels, and mankind as well.
I don't claim to be of a scientific mind, nor am I steeped in knowledge of philosophy, but, wasn't it Einstein who said that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction? And if that is true, couldn't it be argued that if good exists and is rewarded - and we know it does and is , evil must also exist and be punished?
SLE
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Word of Life
Member
Is a relationship with Jesus Christ even Biblical?
(1Jo 1:3) This is the life we have seen and heard. We are reporting about it to you also so that you, too, can have a relationship with us. Our relationship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
And if "HEAVEN and Earth shall pass away," as Jesus just said, then what do you mean when you say the saved will to go to Heaven to live there forever? How can they live in Heaven forever if Heaven shall pass away?
Who said we are going to be living in Heaven?
A believers hope, is in the New Heaven and the New Earth. Everything in the universe, is going melt. God is going to redo things, and create a New Heaven and New Earth.
Many things are still yet to happen, before this takes place:-
Act 3:20-21
(20) Then times will come when the Lord will refresh you. He will send you Jesus, whom he has appointed to be the Christ.
(21) Heaven must receive Jesus until the time when everything will be restored as God promised through his holy prophets long ago.
(Isa 65:17) I will create a new heaven and a new earth. Past things will not be remembered. They will not come to mind.
(Isa 66:22) "The new heaven and earth that I am about to make will continue in my presence," declares the LORD. "So your descendants and your name will also continue in my presence.
(2Pe 3:13) But we look forward to what God has promised-a new heaven and a new earth-a place where everything that has God's approval lives.
(Rev 21:1) I saw a new heaven and a new earth, because the first heaven and earth had disappeared, and the sea was gone.
Remember, the Word of God says, Kingdom of Heaven, it does not say Kingdom in Heaven.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Wickedness is going to be destroyed.
(Mat 10:15) I can guarantee this truth: Judgment day will be better for Sodom and Gomorrah than for that city.
2Pe 3:12-13
(12) as you look forward to the day of God and eagerly wait for it to come. When that day comes, heaven will be on fire and will be destroyed. Everything that makes up the universe will burn and melt.(13)
But we look forward to what God has promised-a new heaven and a new earth-a place where everything that has God's approval lives.
Yes.
Matthew 25:41 says that God created Hell for the devil and his angels. But we also know that God knows all things (See Psalm 139). So He surely knew Adam would sin, man would fall, and that the writing of His Word in Revelation 14:11 (Where sinners are depicted as ceaselessly tormented) was coming.
God was certainly not ignorant, being outside of time, that although He prepared Hell for the devil and his angels, He would be sending man there too. He was not taken by surprise by this, for nothing happens outside of God's sovereign will. In essence, God wasn't unprepared for men, women, and children to be heading to hell also. So while the Bible doesn't explicitly say that God created it for the purpose of sending man their, we know that God knew He would be sending people there.
And if this wasn't His will, then it wouldn't happen. Since it does happen (or will happen, depending on your millennial doctrine), we can safely assume that it is His will, and thus hell was created for the devil, his angels, and mankind as well.
Your post is speculative, try again and show scripture that states God created hell for the purpose of sending people there.
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Tusk Barnes
Member
I don't claim to be of a scientific mind, nor am I steeped in knowledge of philosophy, but, wasn't it Einstein who said that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction?
It was Newton, actually, but your statement of the theory is correct. Well done! And while his theory was really only binding on the field of science (Physics, chemistry, biology, etc.), I imagine there could possibly be some philosophical implications.
And if that is true, couldn't it be argued that if good exists and is rewarded - and we know it does and is , evil must also exist and be punished?
SLE
This is a BRILLIANT question, SLE. I salute you, seriously.
This certainly could be argued, but it would first need a little tweaking to be logically sound. Before we get into the meat of it, though, we need to adjust some of the syntax to make it consistent.
"If good exists and good is rewarded, evil must exist and evil must be punished." There is an inconsistency here known as the "is-ought" fallacy. This happens when we make an observation on how something is, and try to draw implications from that, about how they ought or must be. In order for us to get rid of this fallacy, you and I have two choices...we can reword the statement in two different ways.
- Holding Newton's third Law of Motion as a foundation, "If good exists and good is rewarded, then evil exists and evil is punished." You may not think this is a big change, but the differences matter. OR...
- Holding Newton's third Law of Motion as a foundation, "If good exists and good must be rewarded, then evil exists and evil must be punished. Do you see the changes? We have to be either all "is" or all "ought" in order to be logically consistent.
Now that we've got two syntactically sound arguments, we can look into the logical meat of it. I'll start with the IS version.
Holding Newton's third Law of Motion as a foundation, "If good exists and good is rewarded, then evil exists and evil is rewarded." We start with a premise that is a conjunction (an "and" statement) of two assumptions..."Good exists," and "Good is rewarded." This leads to or implies a conclusion that is also a conjunction (an "and" statement) of two implications..."Evil exists," and "Evil is punished." Really quickly, let's look at "rewarded" and "punished," because they too are important. In this thread, "Eternity in Hell," I imagine we would focus on Heaven as the reward and Hell as the punishment.
Now, if our premise is false, you don't necessarily have a logical problem. The statement would still be valid, it just wouldn't be saying much.
You said that we know our premise to be true...but do we? I'll grant you that Good does exist; that part of the conjunction is True. However, do we actually know that Good is rewarded? I don't think we do know that. Even by Christian doctrine, being Good is not good enough for the reward we are talking about (Heaven).
In fact, according to Christian doctrine, even some Good people will end up being punished (in Hell) for having not known Christ as their Savior. So since this part of the conjunction is not necessarily true, the conjunction, "Good exists (True) and Good is rewarded (False)" gives us a false premise. Again, this does not make your argument invalid...it's still logically sound...it just doesn't say much, because we are now essentially starting with a hypothetical. Whether your conclusion, "Evil exists and evil is punished" be True or False, your argument will still make sense, but it doesn't mean anything because we have a false premise. You could have just as easily stated "If all dogs have 7 legs, then evil exists and evil is punished." Haha. See? Logically sound but purely hypothetical and meaningless.
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Now let's try the must or ought version.
Holding Newton's third Law of Motion as a foundation, "If good exists and good must be rewarded, then evil exists and evil must be punished." Again, we start with a premise that is a conjunction of two assumptions, "Good exists" and "Good must be rewarded." Which leads to or implies a conclusion that is also a conjunction, "Evil exists" and "Evil must be punished." Again, remember that in this discussion "rewarded" is Heaven, and "punished" is Hell.
Now, here's where I have to ask for your input, because in this argument I have had to tweak one of your original assumptions in order for us to avoid the "is-ought" fallacy. Again, we know Good exists, and you said that you knew that "Good is rewarded" was true, but I don't want to speak for you here, so I'm asking...Do you believe "Good must be rewarded" is true? If we know that "Good must be rewarded" is true, we would give your initial statement a chance to become a real meaningful argument! We would have a completely true premise..."Good exists (True) and Good must be rewarded (True)" would make the whole premise True, and we would be able to proceed to the implications and our conclusion.
So I guess my question before we can go on is, do you believe that "Good must be rewarded" is a true assumption in our premise? If not, then we again have a false premise, and the argument is hypothetical and meaningless. But if you do believe it's true, then let me know and we'll talk about it further.
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Tusk Barnes
Member
Your post is speculative, try again and show scripture that states God created hell for the purpose of sending people there.
I'm not sure what you disagree with. Do you not agree that God created Hell? Or do you not agree that when He created it He knew that He'd eventually be sending people there? I'm not speculating at all. I'm drawing conclusions based on what Christians tell me about God...He is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. If those qualities are Biblical, then you have nothing to complain about regarding the implications I've drawn from those qualities.
Tusk Barnes
Member
(1Jo 1:3) This is the life we have seen and heard. We are reporting about it to you also so that you, too, can have a relationship with us. Our relationship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Hold on there. This Scripture states that the author had a relationship with Jesus Christ. Of course he did, because had seen and heard. He was there. And he is reporting this so that the readers of this letter could have a relationship with them...the author and those that had seen and heard. He's not suggesting that you can have a relationship with Jesus as he did. He's suggesting that you "can have a relationship with" them... the author those who have seen and heard. I think you're reading back into Scripture. Those who were there with Jesus, obviously had a relationship with Him, but the author is writing to those who weren't there, and offering his friendship (a relationship). Not His friendship, but just his friendship.
I'm not sure what you disagree with. Do you not agree that God created Hell? Or do you not agree that when He created it He knew that He'd eventually be sending people there? I'm not speculating at all. I'm drawing conclusions based on what Christians tell me about God...He is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. If those qualities are Biblical, then you have nothing to complain about regarding the implications I've drawn from those qualities.
So basically your post is based on hearsay and not scripture, right?
Tusk Barnes
Member
So basically your post is based on hearsay and not scripture, right?
Hahaha. Nice try. But if it's based on hearsay, it's hearsay from the Bible. Unless you disagree that the Bible and every Christians says God has these Omni- qualities, I don't know why you would be disagreeing with me, and why you're so upset that hell is a place God created knowing full well that He would be sending people there...in accordance with His will.
Hahaha. Nice try. But if it's based on hearsay, it's hearsay from the Bible. Unless you disagree that the Bible and every Christians says God has these Omni- qualities, I don't know why you would be disagreeing with me, and why you're so upset that hell is a place God created knowing full well that He would be sending people there...in accordance with His will.
I'm not upset at all but it seems you are very misinformed about God. You should meet Him and form your impression free from the bias of others. :wink:
Tusk Barnes
Member
I'm not upset at all but it seems you are very misinformed about God. You should meet Him and form your impression free from the bias of others. :wink:
Great idea! How will I know when I've actually met Him? Will it be when my impression of Him aligns with your own personal bias?:wink:
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Hahaha. Nice try. But if it's based on hearsay, it's hearsay from the Bible. Unless you disagree that the Bible and every Christians says God has these Omni- qualities, I don't know why you would be disagreeing with me, and why you're so upset that hell is a place God created knowing full well that He would be sending people there...in accordance with His will.
You should add the rest of what the bible says about hell. God created it but NOT for Human kind, it was designed and intended only for satan and his angels. Heaven does not need to expand, however hell does, to prove what i was saying before.
If man chooses to be a servant to satan, then hell will be his punishment, but it was not inteended that any should be.
Tusk Barnes
Member
You should add the rest of what the bible says about hell. God created it but NOT for Human kind, it was designed and intended only for satan and his angels. Heaven does not need to expand, however hell does, to prove what i was saying before.
If man chooses to be a servant to satan, then hell will be his punishment, but it was not inteended that any should be.
No disagreement here. But again didn't God know, before all of this ever happened, what the "decisions" of 60-80% of mankind would be? Even those who don't believe in Satan have apparently elected to swear allegiance to him. Even they are treated as if they serve a king who was never their own...and punished in kind. That's pretty messed up. Where's all this justice I've been hearing about?
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Word of Life
Member
Hold on there. This Scripture states that the author had a relationship with Jesus Christ.
The author is God. The writer of 1 John, is ''John'' (I think).
1Jo 1:3
(3) This is the life we have seen and heard. We are reporting about it to you also so that you, too, can have a relationship with us. Our relationship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
God has clearly told us that relationship is with Him and His Son. It's up to you whether you believe that or not.
Your first and very important lesson, the Word of God is the will of God, and the words came from God, not from man. Look on what's unseen, not at the writer. John did not get up one day and say, ''what am I going to do today, I know, I will write some scriptures and give it to the people''
God inspired him to write and told him what to write down. The words are God's Words.
1Th 2:13
(13) Here is another reason why we never stop thanking God: When you received God's word from us, you realized it wasn't the word of humans. Instead, you accepted it for what it really is-the word of God. This word is at work in you believers.
No disagreement here. But again didn't God know, before all of this ever happened, what the "decisions" of 60-80% of mankind would be? Even those who don't believe in Satan have apparently elected to swear allegiance to him. Even they are treated as if they serve a king who was never their own...and punished in kind. That pretty messed up. Where's all this justice I've been hearing about?
God knows all, but god allows free will, an opportunity for all to recieve salvation. If you wanted to live, yet jumped out in front of a speeding 18 wheeler, how much chance would you have of making it out alive???? If a man wants to live for eternity, he must make the right decision to do so, or else, he himself is in a way stepping right out into death.
We are all told of hell, we know what it is, what its like, it's our decision alone to make.God gives us all the chance to go to heaven if we accept it/
Tusk Barnes
Member
The author is God. The writer of 1 John, is ''John'' (I think).
1Jo 1:3
(3) This is the life we have seen and heard. We are reporting about it to you also so that you, too, can have a relationship with us. Our relationship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
God has clearly told us that relationship is with Him and His Son. It's up to you whether you believe that or not.
Goodness, where to begin? The author is God? I don't believe you. And I don't know how many Christians will disagree with you...especially when an alleged contradiction arises. I can't count the times I've been told, "Well, you're just reading it out of context," or, "This is a book still written by fallible men." C'mon...if the God who loves us all wrote it, He would have made the text clearer, the language would have been understandable to all mankind. There would have been no reason for this current contention, and nothing to disagree about. It would be evident to everyone. It would definitely not look so human. And if the author is God, you are going to run into a whole lot of problems reading the OT.
"God has CLEARLY(?) told us..."? Again, I don't believe you. Don't get upset, just tell me why I should. Because this is absolutely unclear. If it were clearly stated, we wouldn't have apologists around the world trying to explain and justify and make clear the atrocities of the past. People aren't stupid.
Your first and very important lesson, the Word of God is the will of God, and the words came from God, not from man. Look on what's unseen, not at the writer.
The Word of God is the will of God. OK, how do you know this?
Look on what is unseen? Huh? How?
John did not get up one day and say, ''what am I going to do today, I know, I will write some scriptures and give it to the people''
God inspired him to write and told him what to write down. The words are God's Words.
How on Earth could you possibly know this?
1Th 2:13
(13) Here is another reason why we never stop thanking God: When you received God's word from us, you realized it wasn't the word of humans. Instead, you accepted it for what it really is-the word of God. This word is at work in you believers.
This doesn't sound like propaganda to you?
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Tusk Barnes
Member
God knows all, but god allows free will, an opportunity for all to receive salvation. If you wanted to live, yet jumped out in front of a speeding 18 wheeler, how much chance would you have of making it out alive???? If a man wants to live for eternity, he must make the right decision to do so, or else, he himself is in a way stepping right out into death.
Firstly, this opportunity has not been granted to all...say everyone who ever lived anywhere in the world prior to Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. And do you anticipate having free will in Heaven?
We are all told of hell, we know what it is, what its like, it's our decision alone to make.God gives us all the chance to go to heaven if we accept it/
Yes, yes, yes. We're all told about it, but IS IT REAL? I am doubtful. None of us actually knows what it's like, by the way. None of us has been there, and none of us has ever come back. We're told about Santa's workshop at the North Pole too, but you may be surprised to find Santa's workshop is actually just a story used to get children to behave.