Eradication of the Sin Nature?

[NetChaplain]

This post is a response to a reply in my thread “Old Man Crucified; But Not Dead.” Due to the relevancy of the doctrine of indwelling sin within the believer, I thought this share-worthy.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

In our zeal to please God we can unknowingly, due to possessing less Scriptural-comprehension than we realize, accept doctrine before confirming Scriptural support; which can result in nothing more than conjecture.

Concerning the eradication of the sin nature (“old man”) during regeneration (born again), it conflicts with a multitude of scriptural doctrine, esp. with Galatians 5:17: "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

To me, this is a description of the Adamic nature (old man) and the Holy Spirit co-existing (not cohabitation) within the believer and I think it would be quite an ingenious invention for anyone to explain it otherwise.

There remains also the lack of an explanation for the phrase "so that you do not do the things that you wish;" which implies the ongoing tendency for the believer to do wrong, evincing the presence of the sin nature. I also believe Scripture would be more clear in identifying it's death in like manner as it has concerning our death in Christ, i.e., "For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God" (Col 3:3).

Blessings to your Families!

 

[spirit1st]

Galatians 5:17: "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

That scripture was Only met for the Person born of GOD ! given a New birth ! a new spirit !
other wise our spirit is no better than our flesh ! Both are Defiled by Sin !When we are Born into this world ! God changes our Spirit at salvation ! giving us a brand new spirit 1 that does not make our flesh any better ! It still has the same old sin nature ! which it dies with ! Thank GOD !


Born again , born of GOd , born from above is All a New birth! God gives us a New spirit! It has His nature ! our flesh part still has the old nature ! It a sin nature ! The more we live thur our Spirit ? the less we will Sin !

the more our flesh mind controls things ? The less we serve god perfectly !

That why He tells us our minds need renewed ! filled with his living words !Replacing the old thoughts of our old Man ! our old spirit! It gone but the thoughts it had are still in our flesh mind !

We need to understand Salvation and what takes place within us ! It our beginning in the Kingdom of GOD ! Without knowing the beginning ? We will not get the correct understanding of the REST! Only after He makes us a New sinless creature , Can HE dwell in mankind ! and then only in the part He has Perfected !


Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb_10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Gal_4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Heb_2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


1Co_6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Just means we have a place Now for HIm to dwell Forever more ! in our new spirit !

which is made from GOD seed and is just like our LORD JESUS ! but a baby as any New Birth is !




oh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:6 explains John 3:5
Our first birth is Water from our mothers !Our Next Birth which is Just as Profound is from God , a Spiritual birth ! A New Spirit being , made like our LORD JESUS ! Our Perfect example and Pattern for all of GOD Holy Righteous perfect children ! There is No sin in Jesus nor his perfect church and we are IN JESUS [our spirit] and we are All part of his perfect unseen church !

1Jn_3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Our flesh dies because of SIN ! We Never die [our Spirit] because it Has NO SIN !

Joh_11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Col_1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Only our spirit is perfected !


Eph_5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Only our spirit being is like that !

 

[NetChaplain]

That scripture was Only met for the Person born of GOD ! given a New birth ! a new spirit !

Are you meaning that our sinful nature is conflicting with the Holy Spirit, on its way out as the Holy Spirit enters?

 

[B-A-C]

There are certain things that can corrupt and defile us.

Matt 15:11; "It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."
Mark 7:20; And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
Jas 3:6; And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.

Jud 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8; Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.

2 Pet 2:10; and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
2 Pet 2:13; suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
2 Pet 2:14; having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
2 Pet 2:15; forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

1 Cor 6:18; Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

1 Cor 15:33; Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2 Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

This is why we need to be washed sometimes.
John 13:10; Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."

I think this is more true of our minds, than our bodies.
Tit 3:5; He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[B-A-C]

I don't think just because we become a believer, we immediately change all of our old habits. Some might change immediately, but I don't think we ever truly conquer the flesh, while we are in the flesh.

Peter tried to talk Jesus out of getting crucified, after he was a believer.
Peter denied Jesus three times after he was a believer.
Paul said some times he did the things he didn't want to do, and didn't do the things he knew he should do.
Peter was "too good" to eat with the Gentiles.
Peter cut off a soldiers ear while trying to protect Jesus.
James and John (the sons of thunder) argued over who got to sit next to Jesus in heaven.
the list goes on....

The Lords prayer says we will be forgiven as we forgive others. If we are already saved, why do we need to be forgiven?
First John says if we confess our sins, he will forgive us. If we are saved, why do we need to be forgiven?
First John also says if we sin, we have an advocate, why do we need an advocate if we are already saved?
1 Corinthians says we can sin against our "brethren" even after we are saved. (else they wouldn't be our 'brethren')
James says we should confess our sins one to another? Why, if we are already saved?

 

[Barny]

This post is a response to a reply in my thread “Old Man Crucified; But Not Dead.” Due to the relevancy of the doctrine of indwelling sin within the believer, I thought this share-worthy.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

In our zeal to please God we can unknowingly, due to possessing less Scriptural-comprehension than we realize, accept doctrine before confirming Scriptural support; which can result in nothing more than conjecture.

Concerning the eradication of the sin nature (“old man”) during regeneration (born again), it conflicts with a multitude of scriptural doctrine, esp. with Galatians 5:17: "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

To me, this is a description of the Adamic nature (old man) and the Holy Spirit co-existing (not cohabitation) within the believer and I think it would be quite an ingenious invention for anyone to explain it otherwise.

There remains also the lack of an explanation for the phrase "so that you do not do the things that you wish;" which implies the ongoing tendency for the believer to do wrong, evincing the presence of the sin nature. I also believe Scripture would be more clear in identifying it's death in like manner as it has concerning our death in Christ, i.e., "For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God" (Col 3:3).

Blessings to your Families!

Compare Gal 5:17 with Rom 7
Galatians 5:17: "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

Rom 7:19-23
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Both these scriptures speak of the battle within mankind for who will rule. It's either the Spirit or the flesh.
But contrary to the view of some, Christians have the victory in Christ.

Note Rom 7:24,25
O wretched man that I am! (referring to our position before we received Christ) who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (Spirit, Eph 4:23) I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here we see that Christ has delivered those who believe in him. Christians are in the Spirit, Rom 8:9 and not in the flesh.
And as long as we continue to believe in Jesus, enduring to the end, then we remain in the Spirit.

 

[brakelite]

We are called to walk in the Spirit. That is a walk of faith. The scriptures tell us that we are dead!! in Christ. The Holy Spirit spoke these words. They are not a lie. WE ARE DEAD!!! What God asks of us is that we believe it! Know ye not that ye were buried with Him!!!! Now my friends unless you were buried alive there is a dead body down in that grave and it belongs to the old man. Your old man. And now? You are resurrected with Him to new life. You start off as a babe, and you grow into the image of Christ. Now yoy don't sin because the old man is still alive and well. You sin because you believe he is alive and well. You walk in the Spirit, you believe your old man is dead, you starve that old man by refusing to believe in him, refusing to feed him, you feed the new man by prayer, Bible study, and witness, and sin no longer has dominion over you. You have the very same power that Jesus had. Yes, that's right. The same power available as Jesus had when He overcame sin!!! He walked by faith, and we are called to walk by that very same faith.
Revelation 14:12 Here are they who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.

 

[spirit1st]

We once Born of GOD perfect seed are perfectly in the image of our LORD JESUS ! But a Baby as any New Birth would be !

Salvation is a New Creature , a New Spirit made like the Last Adam , our LORD JESUS CHRISt we Just are not Mature 1 we do not have the knowledge Yet 1Like any Baby we grow 1 Our Food is GOD living word ! It causes our Spirit to grow ! That why We must read the Bible !


Heb_5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
1Pe_2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


His Words are Living word !FOOd for our Spirit ! You do not feed your New spirit ? It cannot grow ! It Very important to READ God Living word !even if we do not feel like it !

 

[spirit1st]

Are you meaning that our sinful nature is conflicting with the Holy Spirit, on its way out as the Holy Spirit enters?

It Not the HOLY SPIRIT where the problem is ! The Holy spirit has been dealing with mankind from the beginning ! We Live and walk min our Own spirit 1 That where our problem is ! Our spirit only wants to PLEASE GOD 100% ! Our flesh wants to please it self ! Our spirit has GOD NATURE ! Our Flesh still has the Sin nature !


It a daily job keeping our flesh under control ! It desires to sin !our spirit HATES SIN ! But that why All of us should FAST once in a while to give our Spirit power over the weak Flesh ! We can tell when we not hearing the LORD very well ? We then know our flesh has gained some power ocer the Spirit and temptation will be more! We stop living in much LOVE ! The more LOVe we live in ! The stronger in our Spirit we are 1 He puts HIS LOVe within our Spirit !

Rom_5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
All the Things of GOD are within our Spirit ! when it in control we see those things in our Lives and others we deal with ! Our spirit has Everything Even His Spirit within it ! He gave Us everyting we will ever need !

 

[B-A-C]

The scriptures tell us that we are dead!! in Christ. The Holy Spirit spoke these words. They are not a lie.

I am not doubting you, but could you give a scripture reference for this?

 

[james1523]

The scriptures tell us that we are dead!! in Christ.

Amen.. and the key words there are "in Christ".. in ourselves we are not dead.. so we must abide in Christ (aka walk in the Spirit) ..by setting our mind (the neutral part of us that has free will to choose) on the Spirit.

Not many realise that abiding in Christ and walking in the Spirit are the same thing. To Paul.. who experienced Christ not in the flesh but His Spirit.. the Spirit was the presence of Christ within him. So when Jesus said "abide in Me".. in Paul's experience this equals "walk in the Spirit". Not many realise that abiding in Christ means we need to keep our mind on the things above, the spiritual things, the heavenly places.. we do this through praying at all times, rejoicing in all circumstances, being thankful. 1 Thess 5:16-18 "Rejoice always, pray continually, 1give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus."

 

[brakelite]

I am not doubting you, but could you give a scripture reference for this?

Romans 6:3 Know ye not that as many as are baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into His death?
4. therefore we are buried with by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father so also should we walk in newness of life
5. for if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe we shall also live with Him....
11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Also Romans 7 speaks of the death of the husband freeing the woman to remarry. This is a brilliant analogy of what the Christian is to experience in the new birth. We cannot be born again unless we die first. The husband represents the old nature which is now crucified with Christ: this allows a new relationship between the risen man (the woman being representative of the church) and Christ.

 

[B-A-C]

8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe we shall also live with Him....

I personally would take these verses to say we are ALIVE with him, and dead to the flesh, not dead in him.

 

[B-A-C]

Not many realise that abiding in Christ and walking in the Spirit are the same thing. To Paul.. who experienced Christ not in the flesh but His Spirit.. the Spirit was the presence of Christ within him. So when Jesus said "abide in Me".. in Paul's experience this equals "walk in the Spirit". Not many realise that abiding in Christ means we need to keep our mind on the things above, the spiritual things, the heavenly places.. we do this through praying at all times, rejoicing in all circumstances, being thankful. 1 Thess 5:16-18 "Rejoice always, pray continually, 1give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus."

But do we... I mean really, honestly, do we always "keep our mind on the things above"? Sure we do it a lot, maybe most of the time. But honestly do all of us do this 100% of the time?

 

[spirit1st]

Our New Creature , Our spirit is DEAD to Sin ! It CANNOT SIN ! but we are alive in JESUS CHRIST because we have No Sin ! The part that is in JESUS CHRISt and has eternal life is our Spirit ! We still Dwell in sin filled weak flesh , But It not in Our LORD JESUS CHRIST! It still alive in sin ! It can still sin ! We CANNOT ! We being the HOLY CHILD OF GOD!

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


Rom_6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom_6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Those scriptures reveal it Clearly , I think !

 

[B-A-C]

Our New Creature , Our spirit is DEAD to Sin ! It CANNOT SIN !

1 Cor 6:17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

It's true we become one Spirit with the Lord, but...

2 Cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

... that spirit can become defiled by sin.

 

[spirit1st]

Yes He was talking to both the Elect [Born of GOD ] and the called who were Not yet born of GOD !

We see our new creature [Spirit] Cannot sin ! It made in our LORDS IMAGE ! If He could have sinned ? Then we could ! But We All know He could not ! Nor can We [our spirit] God cannot dwell in SIN ! He could not dwell in Us if we could sin ! There is No sin in The LORDS perfect church ! and we are in HIm and His unseen church of course!
There are many scriptures taken by them selves can lead us , if we use our own understanding to have the wrong understanding ! But the Spirit of Truth teaches by comparing Spiritual with spiritual ! God always confirmed all trues with other scriptures !

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We are Born into His Family and Household and Kingdom from a Perfect uncorruptible SEED ! Only sin corrupts ! So we see our Spirit cannot be corrupted !Thank you LORD JESUS ! That why we have eternal life 1 That why He says ? We are Perfected [sinless] Forever more !

Heb_10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

The question becomes ? Are We really just like Him Now ? If so ? Where ! The answer of course is where we cannot see ! but Must accept by Faith ! Our inward man , our hidden man , our New Man ! Our spirit ! What scriptures reveal this Truth ?

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

If we accept these scriptures as truth ? Then of course we are just like our Lord in our New Creature , New Man , new spirit being !

1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
This is the SEED that every Holy Child of God is born INTO HIS FAMILY BY ! Then we are His elect ! Brothers of our LORD JESUS !

Heb_2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

You understand ? We will be a bit different having lived different lives here ! We will remember different things than others ! Nothing BAD ! But we have love different Dads and Moms and know others here ! Done different works out of LOVE ! we going to remember only those things we did out of pure Love! And deep in our hearts ! We all Loved our Dads and Moms , no matter how bad they were ?

He calls us all First 1 then tries us and tests us and if we follow ONLY HIM ? then He gives us the New Birth ! then we belong to HIm 100% ! His elect !

1Pe_1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe_5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

You know ? The disciples knew there rewards before they were ever born into His kingdom ! They were no more perfect than us in the flesh ! and Not born into GOD family til the day of penecost! Even then we see ? they refused at least one time to obey GOD !

 

[james1523]

1 Cor 6:17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

It's true we become one Spirit with the Lord, but...

2 Cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

... that spirit can become defiled by sin.

That is true. Defilement of the spirit happens if we turn to idols.. it includes defilement of the conscience which is a main part of our spirit.

 

[james1523]

But do we... I mean really, honestly, do we always "keep our mind on the things above"? Sure we do it a lot, maybe most of the time. But honestly do all of us do this 100% of the time?

Agree. It requires us to be strong in spirit and is only something we can do by cooperating with the Holy Spirit. We have to make the effort to pray always, rejoice always etc..and in doing this our mind is set on things above.

 

[NetChaplain]

I don't think just because we become a believer, we immediately change all of our old habits. Some might change immediately, but I don't think we ever truly conquer the flesh, while we are in the flesh.

I like your reasoning BAC - The conquering of the sinful nature lies within two factors and neither involves its removal; but rather its guilt is removed by Christ's atonement and its dominating control is restrained (Rom 6:12, 14) by His Cross (Rom 6:6).

When we were born again the guilt of sin was conquered in our lives (Rom 8:1). The dominance of sin will gradually loose its ground as the Spirit continues to change us, "into the same image from glory to glory" (2 Cor 3:18); and this process continues until we depart.