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Election vs. Free Will

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RJ

This explains my views on this subject better that I could do myself.


Election vs. Free Will

The Doctrine of Election is a theological truth that threads throughout God’s Word. Note the following remarks by C. Fred Dickason, Th.D., Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois, as recorded in the Wycliffe Bible Dictionary (Hendrickson Publishers).

ELECT. “Chosen” or “selected.” The main OT verb for this is “bahar” a deliberate selecting of something or someone with attendant preference or pleasure. The NT verb “eklegomai” means to choose or select out of a larger group something or someone for oneself. The related adjectives “hahir” and “eklektos” are translated “elect” or “chosen” and are the result of an act of selection. The words are used of choices human (Gen 6:2; Deut 30:19; Lk 10:42; 14:7) and divine for salvation ( Ephesians 1:4 ), and for service (Jn 15:16).

Various objects are termed “elect” or “chosen” by God: the nation Israel for special favor and purpose (Isa 44:1; 45:4); several individuals, such as Abraham (Neh 9:7), Aaron (Ps 105:26), David (1 Sam 16:8 ff.); Jerusalem (2 Chr 6:6); a remnant of Jews near the second coming of Christ (Mt 24:22; Isa 65:9); the Church, the body of Christ

(1 Pet 2:9; 5:13; Col 3:12; Tit 1:1); Christ Himself (Isa 42:1; 1 Pet 2:6); the “lady”

(2 Jn 1); and angels (1 Tim 5:21). Elect men are chosen by God’s grace (Rom 11:5) and love (Rom 8:33-39; 11:28; Eph 1:4-5) and according to His foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2); it is never on the basis of human merit (Rom 9:11; cf. 2 Tim 1:9).

Election, as it applies to the salvation of a person, encompasses several steps, e.g., foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification and glorification (Romans 8:29, 30). The difficulty in Election in the matter of salvation, for man anyway, lies in reconciling the sovereignty of God with the freedom of man to choose. God chose every person who would be saved before the foundation of the world, i.e., before creation (Ephesians 1:4, 5). Man’s merit or his works have nothing to do with the election process or the act of salvation, since man has no merit and could not generate any merit from the time of his fall in the Garden of Eden onward. Even though man is capable of producing “human good,” this commodity is as “filthy rags” in the sight of God (Isaiah 64:6) and is totally insufficient for the purpose of achieving eternal salvation. Only faith alone in Christ alone brings eternal salvation to the recipient. God chose those who are to be saved strictly in accordance with His purpose, pleasure and will (Acts 4:28; Romans 9:11; Ephesians 1:5; 3:11).

Therefore God, in accordance with His purpose and before time, selected every single person who was to be saved through Jesus Christ. On the “other side of the coin” the Bible clearly spells out that salvation is for everyone and is a function of man’s will. Note the following passages of Scripture.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

But whosoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14)

And it shall come to pass that whosoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. (Acts 2:21)

To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whosoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (Romans 5:18)

For whosoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. (Romans 10:13)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3, 4)

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men . . . . (Titus 2:11)

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. (1 John 5:1)

And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whosoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)

Therefore it is just as clear in the Word of God that the love and grace of God is provided for every single man and woman within the realm of time through the sacrifice of His Son. What’s more, any person may obtain this love and grace, this gift of eternal life, by exercising his will (choice) to receive by faith (trusting in) Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross for his personal salvation.

How does a believer reconcile “election” with “free agency?” It is fact that the Bible supports both doctrines. To the rational mind they conflict with each other, but it is not totally unreasonable to believe that God has allowed man sufficient mental capacity to understand each doctrine and how they fit together in God’s purpose and plan. Of course the simplistic approach could be to simply deny man’s ability to reconcile these doctrines, relegating the entire matter to the arena of faith.

There is of course merit in the simplistic approach. Reason can never be elevated over supernatural revelation. If every aspect of God’s plan could be reduced to the level of human reason, there would be no need for faith. The reconciliation of these two doctrines may very well fall within the purview of the following two passages of Scripture.

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8, 9)

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

Nevertheless, the number of words penned in commentary regarding the relationship of these two doctrines over the centuries is legion. On the one hand you have the strictly Calvinistic approach stating that man essentially has no say in his salvation, that even his ability to choose must be activated—maybe even controlled— by God. Then there is the strictly Arminian view that has God’s plan teetering on man’s will. There is truth in both views and maybe even some error. So what is the solution? The following is offered as a possibility and not as a concrete (dogmatic) fact—based on the following:

1. God has elected everyone that is to be saved prior to time and creation.
2. God has offered the possibility of salvation to everyone.
3. Christ paid for the sins of everyone on the cross.
4. Man was created in the image of God, i.e. with a mind, soul and spirit and with the ability to chose (free agency).
5. God has stipulated to man that he must exercise his will and receive (trusting in) His Son for salvation.
6. Although God chose before time in accordance with His purpose, He made His selection in conjunction within an orderly process—a prescribed set of steps (Romans 8:29, 30), which are foreknowledge, predestination, calling (otherwise known as the convicting power of the Holy Spirit), justification (by faith alone in Christ alone) and glorification (sanctification from time and into eternity).
7. Foreknowledge appears to be the foundational or commencement step in the election process (Romans 8:29, 30; 1 Peter 1:2)
8. God’s election was not made in a vacuum. The election process cannot be divorced from all of God’s attributes, such as His sovereignty (Lord over all), His immutability (unchanging), His omnipotence (all-powerful), His omniscience (all-knowing), His omnipresence (present everywhere all at once) His holiness and His justice—all such attributes coming to focus and to appliance at the moment of selection.

The conclusion is this. Since both doctrines are true and since God transcends all dimensions, to include time and eternity past and present, simultaneously, they (election and man’s choice) must transpire in the mind of God at the same instant. God’s election does not precede man’s choice and man’s choice does not precede God’s election. One does not depend on the other; rather, they materialize hand-in-hand and are co-dependent on each other in the mind of God. This concept is impossible to understand by the human mind if it thinks only in the realm of “linear time.” Mankind normally thinks in terms of linear time—the fact that everything has a beginning and an end. Eternity to man is a place of a lot of time, and God is a Person who has lots of time.

The fact is that God transcends time. He is not subject to it. A study of the physics of time reveals that it is a physical property dependent upon mass, gravity and velocity. An understanding of this scientific reality may be achieved by studying various commentary treatments offered by Chuck Missler . Once this is understood, it is also important to note that God exists outside the dimension of time. Whereas man views a parade in various increments from a set position along the parade route, God sees both the beginning and the end of it from a position far above it. God exists everywhere, all at the same time. This understanding is necessary when considering what is meant by the “mind of God.”

This may be something akin to the “chicken and the egg first” riddle or an accusation of “fence-riding,” unless of course one takes into account the nature of God. Multiple transactions that are separated by both time and eternity transpiring simultaneously may be impossible with man, who is confined to four dimensions (width, length, height and time), but it presents no difficulty with God who is not confined to any dimension. In fact science now believes there may be upwards to ten or eleven dimensions. God is not only present in each of them, and probably many more, but He also exists everywhere throughout eternity before and after time. In other words He is everywhere (in every dimension) simultaneously. He is at the beginning, at the end and at all in between simultaneously. This then appears to clarify the meaning of “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God . . .” (1 Peter 1:2) and “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined . . .” (Romans 8:29).

Election therefore does not cancel out free agency, and free agency does not cancel out election. Neither doctrine invalidates the other. They compliment each other. God does in fact elect a person to be saved, but He does it in conjunction (partnership) with the person who exercises his God-given capability to accept His Son once the person has been awakened to his sin and need of Jesus by the Holy Spirit. This process—both the act of electing and the person’s exercise of will to receive—happens at the same exact moment in the mind of God who exists before time and creation and at the moment of a person’s salvation, all simultaneously. Both acts—one by God and one by man—are executed together in the mind of God “before the foundation of the world.”

This concept does not invalidate man’s God-given ability and responsibility to choose. Furthermore it does not violate God’s sovereignty or any other of His attributes. In fact, it may very well clarify the concept of foreknowledge and its commencement relationship to the election process. As a person, in time, is faced with the decision to either by faith accept or to reject God’s offer of salvation, God by means of His foreknowledge and attendance fully comprehends the decision the person will make and correspondingly elects or rejects the person in the matter of eternal life. One may argue that this subjugates God to man, but this writer differs with that assessment. Since the ability and obligation for man to make a choice comes from God in the first place, God is therefore supreme in the entire process. The process is totally in accordance with God’s purpose and plan. It is true that God being sovereign could have brought man to eternal life—kicking and screaming—in any manner He would choose. The fact is that He has opted to do it within the parameters of mercy and grace—and the will of man.

Regardless of what position a believer may take regarding these two doctrines, there is one way a person may know if someone is one of the “elect.” He need only apply the test of John 3:18, which is “He who believes in Him [Jesus Christ] is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he had not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Furthermore even if a believer is an adherent to the strict Calvinist viewpoint, he is still under the obligation to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to everyone in accordance with the commission given to him by Christ. In the words of J. Vernon McGee in his Thru the Bible commentary, “If God would somehow reveal to me who are the elect ones, I would give the gospel only to them. But God does not do this. He has said that whosoever will may come. That is a legitimate offer to every person.”
 
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Well it just shows you that men have been getting God's Word wrong for centuries.

Now if women had interpreted all those years ago...:wink:

{tongue in cheek, this a joke, please don't be so stuffy as to think you have to so a sermon in reply}

You can't discuss this topic without lots of argument, debate and in the end still have two schools of thought on the matter.


 
Active

RJ

You can't discuss this topic without lots of argument, debate and in the end still have two schools of thought on the matter.



Oh that's right, it's already been proven many times over, but one think that is discussed too little is God's Soveriengity.

Simply put, I believe in all of the Bible, and in this case both Election and free will. I believe that , in the end, we will all know the truth. We will discover that it was impossible for us to have know the fullness of God and that he had, in fact, made all of his word work together perfectly!
 
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Free will a myth

There is no free will in Christianity. Just as God elects some to go to heaven, by default he also chooses some to go to hell.

If I have free will, I can choose. If the consequence of that choice is death/hell, then I have no choice. If someone points a gun at your head and says "do this" what choice do I have? Is the one with the gun actually giving me a choice or forcing me to do what he wants?

God must have known ahead of time that the atheist would not choose Christ in the way set down. God chose to go ahead and make imperfect creatures and then to punish them for being imperfect. If he wanted to make creatures who would always choose him freely, he could have, being omnipotent.
 
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Yes Election

Not to salvation, but to service, my misguided friend that is why we are told to "rightly divide the word" so as not to be ashamed, scripture is not written to the lost but to the saved. Leave Calvin alone.
 
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RJ

How can God, being perfect, create imperfect creatures?

God, being perfect and all powerful can do as he pleases! Aside from that, his plans that are still being unfolded are perfect and who are we to question them? The true Christian doesn't care to question him but to obey his perfect word and love him with all their heart and soul.
 
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God can't do anything he wants. He can't do what is logically impossible. He can't commit sin. Can he?

What God seems to have done is create imperfect creatures. Why didn't he decide to make them perfect instead? Why did he decide in advance that some of his creatures would be subject to eternal torment?
 
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RJ

God can't do anything he wants. He can't do what is logically impossible. He can't commit sin. Can he?

What God seems to have done is create imperfect creatures. Why didn't he decide to make them perfect instead? Why did he decide in advance that some of his creatures would be subject to eternal torment?

That is silly. An all powerful being can do anything, he simply perfectly chooses not to sin.The Bible tells us that, in his perfection, God holds the Universe together, and if he sinned, corruption and chaos would be in control.

You will just have to ask him someday on your way to judgement or paradise, or perhaps, as some believe, you won't have to worry about
either one, you will just vanish for ever.
 
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"That is silly" is not an argument.

Clearly God cannot commit sin, or he wouldn't be perfect and would have to punish himself.

The idea that God can do anything he wants changes the nature of God if accepted. Or do you believe in a malevolent God?
 
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RJ

"That is silly" is not an argument.

Clearly God cannot commit sin, or he wouldn't be perfect and would have to punish himself.

The idea that God can do anything he wants changes the nature of God if accepted. Or do you believe in a malevolent God?

I believe you do not know what you believe in and are reaching for straws for answers. I suggest you be honest with yourself and just spend some real time reading a Bible before making statements or asking questions that make no sense.

If it is an argument you want, you best look to someone else. I am completely happy with my believing relationship with Jesus Christ and don't even care for a debate, much less an argument.

The best of wishes in what ever it is that you are looking for here at Talk Jesus.
 
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StephenC,

Read Genesis carefully. Adam & Eve were sinless before they sinned (aka "the fall"). They chose to sin, therefore becoming sinful creatures. Its very simple truth.

Just a little article about Adam & Eve too:
Questions about Adam and Eve
 
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There is no free will in Christianity.

I have to object here. There is most certainly free will within Christianity just as there is free will outside of it. However, that will is bound by our nature and is only as free as our nature allows it to be.

Just as God elects some to go to heaven, by default he also chooses some to go to hell.

This is definite heresy. While it is true that God elects His own to be reconciled to Him, He is not forcing anybody to go to Hell in a direct sense. While, in a secondary and indirect sense, He is playing a role in it, He is not responsible at all. Yes, He chose some for Heaven. One could say that, out of necessity, He chose the rest for Hell simply by leaving them out of Heaven. However, this is not the case. At one point, we were all bound for Hell out of our own sinfulness. God merely chose to save some of us. As a result, those whom He did not choose to save are not going to Hell because He left them out. They are going to Hell because they were already headed there by their own doing. Getting what one deserves while another does not does not make God unjust. Selfishness leads us to look at it from that perspective. From God's perspective, He was merciful and kind solely because He even chose to save one. What you are proposing is the view that Hyper-Calvinists teach and it is very, very wrong.

If I have free will, I can choose. If the consequence of that choice is death/hell, then I have no choice. If someone points a gun at your head and says "do this" what choice do I have? Is the one with the gun actually giving me a choice or forcing me to do what he wants?

Except someone with a gun to their head does something against their will. Tell me the last time you didn't enjoy sinning. I'm not talking about the after effect of it. I'm talking about the present act of it. You did it out of your own choice, not against your will. However, you did it out of your own choice because your flesh allowed you to do so. As a Christian, one still struggles against the flesh but he is no longer bound by it. We have the choice to do good whereas an unbeliever has no good found in him because God is not found in him.

God must have known ahead of time that the atheist would not choose Christ in the way set down. God chose to go ahead and make imperfect creatures and then to punish them for being imperfect. If he wanted to make creatures who would always choose him freely, he could have, being omnipotent.

This is the same old crying routine that has gone on for ages. All it boils down to is a toddler yelling, "THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!" Well, He is the Father and He says it is. I think He knows a little more than we do.
 
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Christology

Perhaps, another way to view election is to view it with
Jesus Christ at the centre.

Jesus Christ was predestined from eternity to perform
His work, opening the door to the Kingdom of heaven.
This is clearly and concisely explained in OT prophecy.

Now an individual's election only occurs as a consequence
of this predetermined event. Further, then from all eternity
God has elected those He saves makes complete sense.

Obvously, God knows who is saved and who is not. But,
Love drives God's decisions. He always does that which
is caring, compassionate, just etc. So He sent His son to
die for us all. Are we all ressurected, yes. Do we all have the
opportunity to hear the gospel and respond, yes.

Beware of theology, it is the queen of the subjects that
can be studied, but it is written by man. As such it will
excite debate, argument, division, need I go on.

Christology is a much safer option, it does not create
questions without answers. It includes all scripture.
It does not distort the nature of God. God's perfect
rescue plan for humanity is not for the few, but for
the entire World.

Am I ashamed to put Christ in the centre, certainly not.
 
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Christology

The apostle Paul was commissioned to preach Christ.

We are commissioned to preach Christ.

We are not commissioned to preach Calvinism.

Calvinism is a theology.

Who really cares whether you have been elected by
foreknowledge or free will.

I am escaping through the flames as I am sure the
rest of you are. For without Christ I was dead and I am
sure also you were also.

As an exercise if you want to waste months of your
life. Check out Calvin's institutes. By the way, look up the Holy
Spirit, I could not find the relevant chapter. Perhaps, Calvin
thought the Holy Spirit died out in 300AD as some maintain.

Please note, all questions will be answered on Judgement Day
but I am not sure there will be anyone asking such questions.
Rather, I think kneeling in jaw dropping amazement at the
eternal, unlimited revelation of the one and only.
 
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We are commissioned to preach Christ.

We are not commissioned to preach Calvinism.

Calvinism is a theology.

John Piper had a great way of putting this. I'll post what he had to say:

John Piper said:
We are Christians. Radical, full-blooded, Bible-saturated, Christ-exalting, God-centered, mission-advancing, soul-winning, church-loving, holiness-pursing, sovereignty-savoring, grace-besotted, broken-hearted, happy followers of the omnipotent, crucified Christ. At least that’s our imperfect commitment.
In other words, we are Calvinists. But that label is not nearly as useful as telling people what you actually believe! So forget the label, if it helps, and tell them clearly, without evasion or ambiguity, what you believe about salvation.
If they say, “Are you a Calvinist?” say, “You decide. Here is what I believe . . .”
I believe I am so spiritually corrupt and prideful and rebellious that I would never have come to faith in Jesus without God’s merciful, sovereign victory over the last vestiges of my rebellion. (1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 3:1–4; Romans 8:7).
I believe that God chose me to be his child before the foundation of the world, on the basis of nothing in me, foreknown or otherwise. (Ephesians 1:4–6; Acts 13:48; Romans 8:29–30; 11:5–7)
I believe Christ died as a substitute for sinners to provide a bona fide offer of salvation to all people, and that he had an invincible design in his death to obtain his chosen bride, namely, the assembly of all believers, whose names were eternally written in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (John 3:16; John 10:15; Ephesians 5:25; Revelation 13:8)
When I was dead in my trespasses, and blind to the beauty of Christ, God made me alive, opened the eyes of my heart, granted me to believe, and united me to Jesus, with all the benefits of forgiveness and justification and eternal life. (Ephesians 2:4–5; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Philippians 2:29; Ephesians 2:8–9; Acts 16:14; Ephesians 1:7; Philippians 3:9)
I am eternally secure not mainly because of anything I did in the past, but decisively because God is faithful to complete the work he began—to sustain my faith, and to keep me from apostasy, and to hold me back from sin that leads to death. (1 Corinthians 1:8–9; 1 Thessalonians 5:23–24; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:25; John 10:28–29; 1 John 5:16)
Call it what you will, this is my life. I believe it because I see it in the Bible. And because I have experienced it. Everlasting praise to the greatness of the glory of the grace of God!

As an exercise if you want to waste months of your
life. Check out Calvin's institutes. By the way, look up the Holy
Spirit, I could not find the relevant chapter. Perhaps, Calvin
thought the Holy Spirit died out in 300AD as some maintain.

Does the ignorance gain any more depth? You obviously have no read the Institutes nor have you bothered to look into them beyond and elementary (and that might be giving you too much credit) level in order to support your uninformed stance. Try reading Book III of the Institutes. You'll see it focuses primarily on faith and how the Spirit interacts. Here is a snippet from the opening of Book III.

John Calvin said:
The two former Books treated of God the Creator and Redeemer. This Book, which contains a full exposition of the Third Part of the Apostles’ Creed, treats of the mode of procuring the grace
of Christ, the benefits which we derive and the effects which follow from it, or of the operations of the Holy Spirit in regard to our salvation.
 
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Dear Melody.

There are more than two schools of thought on the subject of election. Even within the Calvinism school there are varying degrees of adherence to TULIP. Theology, the study of mans relationship to God is overflowing with schools of thought.

Within the Catholic Church there are 140 denominations. Ranging from truly traditional to liberal in all its forms. Some are under the Vaticans rule some are not. But they are all Catholic.

Under the Protestant banner, those not adhering to Catholic dogma. I think I read somewhere that there may be up to 60,000 denominations. Frightening but true.

Thats why I am strictly Biblical fundamentalist with Christ as the centre of my faith. No denomination, no catechism, no hymn book. No theology, no constitution, no sacraments other than the breaking of bread.

I do not deal with church or state regarding my faith. Why, because the New Testament has not laid that foundation. Rather only Christ crucified.

Complete rejection of man's influence. Man's ideas cause division. More often than not what a church believes may be traced back to historical events.

For example The Church of England traces directly back to King Henry the 8th. The catholic church would not allow him a divorce so he broke away and started his own church. As you do when you are a king.
 
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Dear Rojoloco.

The church that reached out to me before I became a follower of Jesus was the church I attended first. It had no theological bent.
It was not a denomination of any organistion. It had no inherent theology. No constitution.

Due to different influences from different adherents within the church, a small bible study was launched. This within a few years developed into a miniture theology school. Yes, Calvinism was a part of that development. But, three, four and five point Cavinism was also a part of the theology. Of course, this was increasingly oppossed by other viewpoints.

There were eschatology differences, differences on baptisms, differences on prophetic influences. heirarchial
differences, etc. In fact, the background of the congragation was as calidascope of theological influences and historical influences.

I heard one Cavinist a five pointer rebuking another four pointer Calvinist, "your not a Cavinist at all". So the four pointer Calvinist would leave and do the appropriate research to support his position.
On and on it went for years.

Meanwhile, I was in my infancy as a Christian still trying to find out what the Bible actually said. I was approached at different times by people carrying different theological texts, "here read this", to which I replied "that I can't, I have not even fully read the bible."

To cut a long story short, the church split clean in two. I was still reading the bible and asking Jesus to give me insight. I was unable to join any of the positions others held as I did not have sufficient knowledge.

I do admit that I saw the same thing occurring in the early churches that the apostle Paul was dealing with. Divisions were occurring.

Very little evidence of unity, of forgiveness. No meekness at all.

Incidently, some of my early Christian friends who adhered to Calvinism fell away from following Jesus. Caught up in the world.
This is bizarre as they were the ones pushing "election from eternity".

In my experience I am not able to adhere to any interpretation other than what I have recieved from the Holy Spirit. Twenty five years later the only confidence I have is in Jesus Christ, definitely not in any man's interpretation.

Sorry, dear Rojoloco, but I have in fact been exposed to the outworkings of Calvinism and have even read books on theological positions. Sometimes very interesting. But, I will always see them in the same light.

They do cause division. The bible does not, it only creates unity.
 
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