Ekklesia vs. christian religious institutions

[Swordman]

So what have you found Swordman?

I belong to a church that functions like the body of Christ. It's a not perfect church - but then again, it will only be perfect in heaven won't it?

Well, I don't want to call it a "house church" because that elicits in the minds of many the usual images of Violaism and Edwardism, and other various elements of radicalism. Real estate and all its outrageous costs simply isn't our focus. We sometimes meet in parks, in restaurants, but mostly in homes.

The difference is the level of community we live out in our corporate lives, in addition to our face-to-face fellowship and mutual accountability we share in the weekly gatherings. We firmly believe in an active discipleship of babes in Christ, rather than to leave their spiritual growth to Sunday school, Bible studies, and sermonizing ten thousand different ways to look at the David and Goliath event (tongue in cheek).

It's not easy painting a panoramic portrait of our dynamic fellowship because it differs so much from week to week.

 

[jiggyfly]

I used to attend institutionalized, religious gatherings, but I soon grew weary of the lack of genuine fellowship (due mostly to the fact that I never could figure out how to fellowship with the backs of other people's heads), so I sought something better.

I gotta chuckle out of it too Swordman.

 

[jiggyfly]

Well, I don't want to call it a "house church" because that elicits in the minds of many the usual images of Violaism and Edwardism, and other various elements of radicalism. Real estate and all its outrageous costs simply isn't our focus. We sometimes meet in parks, in restaurants, but mostly in homes.

The difference is the level of community we live out in our corporate lives, in addition to our face-to-face fellowship and mutual accountability we share in the weekly gatherings. We firmly believe in an active discipleship of babes in Christ, rather than to leave their spiritual growth to Sunday school, Bible studies, and sermonizing ten thousand different ways to look at the David and Goliath event (tongue in cheek).

It's not easy painting a panoramic portrait of our dynamic fellowship because it differs so much from week to week.

Sounds really refreshing swordman. I too stopped participating in religious liturgy some years ago and began to experience the same kind of fellowship you are talking about but it was bi-weekly. Now we don't have any planned gatherings but Father blesses us with fellowship with other believers when we need it.

 

[Swordman]

Swordman I am sorry that you felt alone in the church, or maybe got hurt over it.

Oh, I was never alone. I simply desired true, genuine fellowship with fellow believers within a context that's more meaningful than Bible study, etc. And, I was never hurt. I simply sought something that went much deeper than the typical, surface relationships common within the average church organization.

You see, TRUE fellowship is dangerous because it involves being transparent.....which is something that goes against the grain of all our social/cultural conditioning here in the West. TRUE fellowship is dangerous because it exacts a high price to one's sense of pride, self-reliance and self-sufficiency. That's something that most professing believers simply can't countenance, so they congregate into places where they can fade into the woodwork.

Like Renee said, "church is not perfect" but it is important to have christian fellowship with one another.

But TRUE fellowship does harbor elements of perfection within it when the people are gathered in the name of Christ Jesus. He promised that where two or three are gathered in His name, He is in their midst.

You see, there is a difference between those man-made institutions most people refer to as the church, and THE Church. WE are THE Church, not any organization put together by the hands of men, or the communal facility they construct from wood, brick and mortar.

Granted, some within the Church do attend and support institutional church organizations, but then so do unbelievers and enemies of Christ.

Therefore, WE are the Church, not those things sitting on the corner of almost every quarter mile of city travel.

I just wanted to explain my close attention to words, because words mean something, and are thus indicative of the thinking and beliefs of the speaker(s).

 

[Rene]

The difference is the level of community we live out in our corporate lives, in addition to our face-to-face fellowship and mutual accountability we share in the weekly gatherings. We firmly believe in an active discipleship of babes in Christ, rather than to leave their spiritual growth to Sunday school, Bible studies, and sermonizing ten thousand different ways to look at the David and Goliath event (tongue in cheek).

Therefore, WE are the Church, not those things sitting on the corner of almost every quarter mile of city travel.

Sounds like my definition of a church - except once a week we all gather in a largish building and celebrate our faith together! We don't only gather on Sundays, but also during the week for fellowship and serving each other.

I have a question for you all. I've wondered about this before ... At what moment does a Christian fellowship become an "institutional church" as Swordman calls it?

* When the number of people gathering exceeds a certain amount?
* When they gather in the same building every week?
* When the building they gather in exceeds certain square metres?
* When they open a bank account?
* When they register as an organization somewhere with the government or some greater umbrella organization?
* When they start following a certain order of events in their gathering time?
* When they stop following the guidance of the Holy Spirit? (I guess that could happen in home cells as well?)
* When they appoint a leader/shepherd/pastor?
* Something else?

 

[Coconut]

At what moment does a Christian fellowship become an "institutional church"

My answer may or may not reflect the thinking of most or all...:wink:

I say the moment a man or woman (including myself) ceases to follow Christ, in word and deed, in the agenda He set for us, and begins to follow the worldly agenda`s of men (these are legions), then thats the moment he/she have become institutionalized. (even if only in their thinking)

The institute in all its forms is slavery, (to something besides Christ) despite all the Heavenly descriptive`s of men that would have its followers and adherents believe otherwise. The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

This world either has me, (in mind and/or body) or Christ has me. No man can serve two masters...

I think the needful question is, what was Christ`s mission on earth?

When we understand the answer to that, we will hopefully get busy carrying on His mission.


Luk 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to tell the good news to the poor. He has sent me to announce release to the prisoners and recovery of sight to the blind, to set oppressed people free, and to announce the year of the Lord's favor."

Joh 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me. And where I am, there my servant will also be.

Gal 5:1 Christ has set us free so that we may enjoy the benefits of freedom. So keep on standing firm in it, and stop attaching yourselves to the yoke of slavery again.

Jas 1:22 Keep on being doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at himself in a mirror. For he studies himself carefully and then goes off and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the one who looks at the perfect law of freedom and remains committed to it-thus proving that he is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of what it requires-will be blessed in what he does. If anyone thinks that he is religious and does not bridle his tongue, but instead deceives his own heart, his religion is worthless. A religion that is pure and stainless in the sight of God the Father is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

 

[Swordman]

Swordman sorry for misunderstanding you. You sure will fit right in because many of the moderators believe the way you do. Again please forgive me for misinterupting you.

Dear one, there's nothing to forgive. It's a common assumption that those who leave the institutional model do so because of hurt or disgust. Not so with me.

I remember the very moment I looked up at the ceiling of the so-called sanctuary during a sermon, and asked the Lord, "Is this all there is? Is there nothing more? Father, is THIS the full extent of what we are as believers in your Son, within a gathering? Are we nothing more than this as a corporate body? Why can't I have fellowship with my brothers and sisters in the gathering? Why are we kept silent?"

Oh, a number of the institutions I attended had coffee and doughnuts before the services, but that too lacked opportunity for true fellowship. Given typical, human tendencies, most people go through life thinking that surface relations with powdered sugar on one's lips and coffee stains on one's tie are the sum total of TRUE fellowship. My, but how easily humanity can fool themselves into false assumptions.

Well, the Lord didn't answer right away, but He eventually led me on a journey that inevitably ended up with my leaving footprints in the sands of a wilderness. In that desolate place, I learned about the true depths of my spirituality. You see, within organized religion, I thought I was living a very spiritual life. Almost everyone around me thought the same thing. After all, we all went through the weekly trouble of dressing up in our dressy costumes, and using up the gas to drive to the facility, and cracked our smiles at one another in passive attribution of social niceties. The strain of preparing for the weekly Sunday morning events was quite evident to those of us who had a habbit of looking beneath the surface.

Anyway, long story short, I discovered a number of things in that wilderness that I knew had to be weeded out. Institutionalism was a crutch. It gave me a false sense of spiritual well-being. Yes, the sermons were very challenging, and the Sunday school cotton I glued onto the bunny tails was also instructive, but it all lacked the genuineness of real-world solidity. I was never allowed to share my weaknesses, and thus my need for strengthening against my weaknesses with those around me. I was never given the opportunity to share my strengths with those who were in need of such support.

Oh, sure, we had cell groups that met every week, but those were mostly a band-aid and anti-septic to the many deficiencies within the institutional model. Believe me, I've been to, and experienced, many different institutional expressions and flavors, and they all harbored most of the same weaknesses, and they still do. Nothing has changed over the past 1700+ years. Most everyone I talk to about this assume that their particular group is different, and more dynamic than most all the rest. When I visited them, it was all the very same I had seen before. Different people have different tolerance levels for the status quo. Some people find great pleasure in it all.

Well, one thing's for sure: They will never know what they're missing until they experience that which is superior to what they have. Ignorance is bliss for some, but my need for something more than surface relationships drove me to seek that which was experientially suprerior rather than that which was assumptively fulfilling.

 

[Swordman]

I have a question for you all. I've wondered about this before ... At what moment does a Christian fellowship become an "institutional church" as Swordman calls it?

Speaking for myself rather than for others, I'd have to say that the answer to this begins with an understanding of the vast gulf between that which is traditionally called a fellowship, and that which is TRULY fellowship. Most people go through life thinking that they know what true fellowship really is, but in reality they haven't the faintest idea.

TRUE fellowship isn't one of those things that can be contrived. It's either real, or it's fellowship only in name. Most religious people THINK they can walk into a special purpose building and flip on worship as they would a light switch. Most church-goers have no clue whatsoever as to what TRUE worship looks like, much less what it is experientially. We can certainly praise in voice, and from the heart, but worship is not synonymous with praise. Most people lump those two terms together as if they're one and the same. Well, they aren't.

NOBODY can walk into a so-called sanctuaruy and offer up a form of worship that is acceptable before the Lord if they weren't already living a life of worship before they set foot into that building.

It simply can't be done!

Just my two cents worth.....:shade:

 

[jiggyfly]

I have a question for you all. I've wondered about this before ... At what moment does a Christian fellowship become an "institutional church" as Swordman calls it?

I think the best way to answer this is to first discuss what are the earmarks and characteristics of a genuine gathering of the ekklesia (commonly known as church).

In my opinion it is impossible for anything that is originated by man to find acceptance and pleasure in God's eyes.

* When the number of people gathering exceeds a certain amount?
* When they gather in the same building every week?
* When the building they gather in exceeds certain square metres?
* When they open a bank account?
* When they register as an organization somewhere with the government or some greater umbrella organization?
* When they start following a certain order of events in their gathering time?
* When they stop following the guidance of the Holy Spirit? (I guess that could happen in home cells as well?)
* When they appoint a leader/shepherd/pastor?
* Something else?

With the exception of being led by HolySpirit, do any of these have a spiritual significance?

Fact is that Jesus is always in the midst of the ekklesia because He is the One building it. Contrary to popular belief the christian religious institution and the ekklesia that Jesus is building are not the same entity. One is of a spiritual nature and the other a mere carnal imitation. One was conceived in the mind of God and the other in the mind of man.

 

[Rene]

In my opinion it is impossible for anything that is originated by man to find acceptance and pleasure in God's eyes.

Amen to that!
But now - how do you decide/discern whether something was originated by God or not. I guess you look at its fruit?

Let's take this scenario:
Someone somewhere in China meets a missionary and becomes a child of God. Through his testimony and the work of the Spirit five people in his town starts to believe. The five believers follow the guidance of the Spirit and meets regularly to pray together and encourage other.
As time goes by the group grows. The place where they usually met becomes too small, and they ask God what they should do. By a miracle of God a larger room becomes available, and they start meeting there. As the group gets larger they start meeting in smaller groups, but still feels lead by the Spirit to all get together once a week.
One day I decide to visit China. I stand outside this building and hear people worshipping God. I peer into the room and think "hmm an institutional church". This can't be from God.

Is this possible? Is it possible that God can use and prepare large groups with a "name" attached to it as part of His Bride?

With the exception of being led by HolySpirit, do any of these have a spiritual significance?

Absolutely nothing! Which also means spiritually in itself nothing about this is "evil".
Which is why I'm wondering if God can't move His children to use a building or whatever to extend His Kingdom - or is it always inspired by men?
What about leaders who had clear visions and guidance from the Spirit to start a sort of a congregation? Did they hear wrong?

Don't get me wrong - I believe there are many, many religious institutions that do nothing or little to extend God's Kingdom (and some do very much to extend their own little kingdoms). But I also believe that it is possible for a large group of people who get together - whether under a tree, in a tent or in a building, to be in the will of God. Am I wrong?

 

[Rene]

Thanks for your "two cents" Swordman
I understand much better how you think and believe now.

Speaking for myself rather than for others, I'd have to say that the answer to this begins with an understanding of the vast gulf between that which is traditionally called a fellowship, and that which is TRULY fellowship. TRUE fellowship isn't one of those things that can be contrived. It's either real, or it's fellowship only in name.

I so totally agree with you. This is one of the things I believe are so important. I see myself as non-conformist and a non-traditionalist.
But, do you believe it is impossible to find Spirit-led people who worship "in spirit and in truth", doing exactly what God wants them to do, inside an accidentally "special purpose building"?

NOBODY can walk into a so-called sanctuaruy and offer up a form of worship that is acceptable before the Lord if they weren't already living a life of worship before they set foot into that building.

Amen! Yet, I've been a member of two churches the past years where people became born-again right inside the building. :shock:

 

[jiggyfly]

Amen to that!
But now - how do you decide/discern whether something was originated by God or not. I guess you look at its fruit?

Let's take this scenario:
Someone somewhere in China meets a missionary and becomes a child of God. Through his testimony and the work of the Spirit five people in his town starts to believe. The five believers follow the guidance of the Spirit and meets regularly to pray together and encourage other.
As time goes by the group grows. The place where they usually met becomes too small, and they ask God what they should do. By a miracle of God a larger room becomes available, and they start meeting there. As the group gets larger they start meeting in smaller groups, but still feels lead by the Spirit to all get together once a week.
One day I decide to visit China. I stand outside this building and hear people worshipping God. I peer into the room and think "hmm an institutional church". This can't be from God.

Is this possible? Is it possible that God can use and prepare large groups with a "name" attached to it as part of His Bride?

God uses the good and the bad to accomplish His will but on the same line of reasoning if a few believers were part of the rotary club because God led them to join, doesn't mean that the rotary club is part of the body of Christ or that it is an instrument of God's will.

I think one of the best ways to discern these things other than the spiritual gift of discerning of spirits is the teachings and traditions that are propigated by a group. Does Jesus use lies, deception and misinterpretation to build His body?

There are many false teachings propigated by the christian religious institution. How many times have you heard "isn't it good to be in the house of the Lord this morning"? Obedience to the tithe, the clergy/laity system, the pulpit is holy and so on....

 

[Swordman]

But, do you believe it is impossible to find Spirit-led people who worship "in spirit and in truth", doing exactly what God wants them to do, inside an accidentally "special purpose building"?

Impossible? No. True worship that's acceptable before the Lord can exist almost anywhere. It's what's in the heart of the individual. However, TRUE worship isn't something that can be orchestrated by a religious program and mood music.

Some organizations I've been with figured that their followers must entering the so-called sanctuary in silence, and thus reflect upon the funeral style music and allow it to sweep them into a worshipful attitude or mood. Quite frankly, that's bankrupt thinking and practice.

The same is true of fellowship. Cell groups, which I had mentioned before, certainly strived for true fellowship. It all depends on the caliber of the people involved, their desires, and their willingness to pay the price for true fellowship because it exacts a high price upon those who involve themselves with its many discoveries of their weaknesses and fallacies.

Yes, salvation too can happen anywhere, just like fellowship and worship, so it's unremarkable that they all can happen in church organizations. The difference, of course, is that fellowship does tend to be non-existent within most of organized religion.

I'm thankful that the Lord is with us no matter where we are.....

 

[Rene]

Hi Trish
I'm sorry that I turned this into a debate. I'm really curious about this subject and would like to know the Truth in this matter. (I didn't know about the other thread.)
I believe it is a very important subject, because if all believers belonging to "institutional churches" are outside of God's perfect will, the Bride of Christ is in serious trouble.
Either way, this conversation really moves me to start praying again for the holiness and purity of the Bride of Christ ...

I think one of the best ways to discern these things other than the spiritual gift of discerning of spirits is the teachings and traditions that are propigated by a group. Does Jesus use lies, deception and misinterpretation to build His body?

Thanks for the advice Jiggyfly. It think that is a very good way to discern. Discerment is becoming more and more important these days!

Some organizations I've been with figured that their followers must entering the so-called sanctuary in silence, and thus reflect upon the funeral style music and allow it to sweep them into a worshipful attitude or mood. Quite frankly, that's bankrupt thinking and practice. The same is true of fellowship.

Yes, I recognize this style in some churches I've been to ...
This reminds me of Mark 7 (7They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.")
May the Bride of Christ have one purpose only - to glorify God, and not the practices and traditions of men (even if it has some external appearance of religion). And may we have better discernment about what really glorifies God, and what is just a useless religious ritual/practice.
And may we be willing to make the sacrifices that it takes to have true fellowship!



(John 3:30 He must become greater; I must become less.)

 

[Swordman]

I believe it is a very important subject, because if all believers belonging to "institutional churches" are outside of God's perfect will, the Bride of Christ is in serious trouble.

I hope there was no misunderstanding about what I said in relation to the inherent problems institutionalism fosters. The problems have more to do with elements of contrived fellowship versus the genuine article. This has nothing to do with being outside of God's will, per se. Granted, the Lord wants us to experience all that He has provided, fellowship being one of the foundational building blocks under the believer's life in Christ.

My main point, in relation to fellowship, is that for many centuries, now, the masses of church-goers have allowed hirelings (clergy) to hijack their spiritual birth-right to mutual edification and fellowship in the main gatherings. Instead, the people are expected to divide up into smaller, less effective groups out of the way of the main meeting times.

In other words, YOU, the believer, aren't center stage of the program. The program itself is central to the thrust and efforts of those who direct it all as they would a stage play. Rather than your being a vibrant and active participant in the lives of those around you, you're relegated to being a passive observer who responds on cue from the masters of the ceremony.

TRUE fellowship involves YOU, each and every one of YOU being directly and actively involved in one another's lives.

I'm sure each of you can think of some names of people you'd rather have no part in your life, but TRUE fellowship forces you to deal, face to face, on a much deeper level, with those with whom you'd rather not have relations. TRUE fellowship forces you to look deeper within that other, below that tainted, exterior surface, and therefore possibly discover a beauty within that you never knew existed. TRUE fellowship is simply a window through which we can see a portion of what God sees in others that we can never see looking at the backs of their heads, or socializing over coffee and doughnuts, or Bible-centricity within cell groups, etc.

Either way, this conversation really moves me to start praying again for the holiness and purity of the Bride of Christ ...

The bride has always been pure and glorious because she's clothed with the glory of Christ. There is no taint.

What you can pray for is the institutional model to free its people to actively function in each other's lives to a more meaningful extent than band-aid programs that attempt nothing more than to apply the deadening salve to the deep-felt needs within, needs that most people can't seem to put a name or context.

I've been guilty, many times over, of awakening within others an understanding of the nature of that emptiness that they never could figure out on their own. I certainly didn't figure it out on my own. It was the Lord who opened the door for me, but only AFTER I began to question and seek the answers.

May the Bride of Christ have one purpose only - to glorify God, and not the practices and traditions of men (even if it has some external appearance of religion). And may we have better discernment about what really glorifies God, and what is just a useless religious ritual/practice.

And may we be willing to make the sacrifices that it takes to have true fellowship!
(John 3:30 He must become greater; I must become less.)

Amen to that.:groupwave:

 

[Swordman]

....

how do you decide/discern whether something was originated by God or not. I guess you look at its fruit?

This isn't necessarily the true measure because you're then relying upon human perceptions. Many people tend to look at mega-church organizations, and assume that their numerical success, and resulting size are the measure of origin from, and acceptance by, God, and thus a measure of their being of God.

The acid test we apply to any communal church organization is the measure of the amount of TRUTH we may glean as to whether it's truly of God, or is man-made. Money is one good acid test. Pull the money out from under a religious church organization, and it collapses into a heap. Does that mean that God did not and could not use such to His glory? No. God can use almost anything to accomplish His ends.

Pull the money out from under the Church, and she continues to live and breath irregardless of the lack of money under her feet. Now, which is of God, and which is of man?

Something being man-made doesn't mean that it's wrong, evil, and thus of no use to God. God used the evil, hard-hearted pharoah to His glory, so He can certainly use church organizations to accomplish His ends.

Let's take this scenario:

Someone somewhere in China meets a missionary and becomes a child of God. Through his testimony and the work of the Spirit five people in his town starts to believe. The five believers follow the guidance of the Spirit and meets regularly to pray together and encourage other.
As time goes by the group grows. The place where they usually met becomes too small, and they ask God what they should do. By a miracle of God a larger room becomes available, and they start meeting there. As the group gets larger they start meeting in smaller groups, but still feels lead by the Spirit to all get together once a week.
One day I decide to visit China. I stand outside this building and hear people worshipping God. I peer into the room and think "hmm an institutional church". This can't be from God.

Is this possible? Is it possible that God can use and prepare large groups with a "name" attached to it as part of His Bride?

Hypotheticals aren't necessarily a true measure of the genuine depths of any matter. The presence of communal song eminating from a group of whatever size to which one may point is not a measure of the amount of TRUE worship within the hearts of the attendees. Praise and worship are two entirely different phenomenon. One can be contrived, the other cannot.

Therein lies the fallacy in your hypothetical.

Absolutely nothing! Which also means spiritually in itself nothing about this is "evil".

Good point. Institutionalism, in and of itself, is not evil. Something can foster inherent weaknesses within its makeup without it being judged as completely evil and corrupt. That's why I've primarily targeted the westernized model of institutionalism moreso than all models in all countries.

Which is why I'm wondering if God can't move His children to use a building or whatever to extend His Kingdom - or is it always inspired by men?

Again, the caliber of the acid test itself is what will govern the integrity of the outcome. For example, if a group is handing the primary portion of their giving over to the clergy in support of the facility and its staffing before they first see to the needs of fellow believers, and the needs of those within their immediate communities, then they're guilty of robbing God with what they call their "tithes and offerings." Is that traditional phenomenon of God, or is it of men?

Well, clearly that is of men, because God's word consistently portarys His ideal for the priorities in our giving as FIRST meeting needs, and THEN the freedom to support other things secondarily.

Here in the West, most religious people are taught by their religious institutions that they should primarily support the communal facilities and the clergy with the primary portion of their giving (being their tithe), and that meeting needs should be a secondary consideration. That's placing the cart before the horse, and then leaving the horse in the barn altogether, and yet expecting the cart to get the passengers to town in a timely manner.

This describes the majority of church organizations here in the West. That alone speaks loud volumes to the fact that most of them are just dead wrong. That doesn't mean that the Lord can't use them to His glory. However, we know from scruiptures that God's ability to use something to meet His ends doesn't necessarily mean that it has His stamp of approval upon its visage. (I just wanted to drive that point home, because it's an important truth that scripture bears forth with concrete clarity.)

What about leaders who had clear visions and guidance from the Spirit to start a sort of a congregation? Did they hear wrong?

The REAL question we should be asking is: How do we know that they were truly hearing from the Spirit of God in the first place? Eloquent sermons and spiritual-sounding, public prayers are no measure of God having placed any of those men behind the pulpit.

Many tests can be applied in order to ascertain the TRUTH behind individual organizations. Unfortunately, most church organizations are found wanting according to national statistics.

Don't get me wrong - I believe there are many, many religious institutions that do nothing or little to extend God's Kingdom (and some do very much to extend their own little kingdoms). But I also believe that it is possible for a large group of people who get together - whether under a tree, in a tent or in a building, to be in the will of God. Am I wrong?

The answer to that varies from group to group. Most have practices that clearly are antithetical to the mandates and examples found within the very word of God.

 

[Swordman]

Today’s world the definition of church has many terminology, no wonder the word “church” can be so confusing.

Good point, Trish.

A Christian church that believes that Jesus came in the flesh, believe that He is the Son of God, believe of the resurrection of Jesus, believe that Jesus died for us so that we can be made the righteousness of God, is a (body of believers) that came to worship God in a building that is called “Church”.

There are non Christian churches that don’t believe in none of these things and yet called their building a church. They get together for a different purpose.

In addition to what you've said above, there are also many groups who do hold to the central tennets of the Christian faith, such as the one's you outlined above, and yet who practice things that are so diabolically contrary to the word of God, and yet are called the church.

The Holy Bible tells us to not forsaken assembly of one another and we chose to do this by coming together in a building we call church. We do this to encourage, learn, and spread the gospel of Christ to others.

What I wonder is how many here have ever given thought as to the purpose for the gathering? How many of you have ever sought to ask that question, much less to seek the answer.....as opposed to the traditional responses we've all heard over the years of our lives?

Yes there are different ways you can choose to get together, and if the purpose is right (spreading the gospel of Christ) that is what it is all about folks.

Well, since you asked that there not be any debate in this thread, I'm not going to debate that with you, given that I disagree with you on biblical grounds, but suffice it to say that any group genuinely seeking to model their corporate lives after the Spirit of God will fulfill ALL that the gathering was intended.

So why is there debates over this when the purpose is the same.

The purpose you've stated is inferior to the biblical prupose for the gethering of believers. That's why there is some variation (not debate) in perspectives stated in this thread.

Why not encourage one another?

I personally prefer not to encourage others with partial truth. If we don't recognize and elevate ALL truth to the level and status it deserves, then we're promoting that which is inferior.

I've refrained from further clarifications of what I said because you appear to not want such because of it allegedly being an ugly form of debate. I'm therefore restrained by your request. That's why I've stated very simply my disagreement, and withheld my reasoning, which I think is relevant and constructive rather than a matter of debate.

 

[jiggyfly]

Pull the money out from under the Church, and she continues to live and breath irregardless of the lack of money under her feet. Now, which is of God, and which is of man?

While your statement here is true Swordman, it still would be a carnal test and not practical at all. I don't see anyway for one person to be able to pull the money out from even the smallest of the christian religious groups.

Something being man-made doesn't mean that it's wrong, evil, and thus of no use to God. God used the evil, hard-hearted pharoah to His glory, so He can certainly use church organizations to accomplish His ends.

While something man-made may to some degree qualify as something good it is still carnal.

 

[Trishann]

Just to be clear that these quotes in my name was on a different thread. It was not on Ekklesia vs Christianity. I have no ideal what Ekklesia is all about.

It was the thoughtfulness of jiggyfly to start this new thread because my thread was on "Who still believe on going to church." I welcome jiggyfly ideal about switching some of the replies so others can debate on Ekklesia vs Christianity if wish too.

Just want to make it clear my quotes was not about Ekklesia vs Christianity. Like I said I know nothing about Ekklesia.


Thanks, Trish

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Ekklesea vs Christian Religious Institution

I have no ideal what Ekklesia is all about.

Ekklesea is a Greek word that describes any large, highly structured organization controlled top to bottom through an entrenched leadership organization. The Roman Catholic Church is the primary example of ecclesiastical practice in religion because it is so tightly controlled from Rome down through the local archdioceses and dioceses.

SLE