Does paradise still exist?

[B-A-C]

Often here on TalkJesus we talk about important things. Like who will be in the kingdom of God and who will end up in the Lake of fire.
This topic is less important because I don't personally feel that anyone's salvation depends on it. Also it is a difficult subject to quantify.

But here we go.

Paradise/Abraham's Bosom is seemingly only mentioned a few places in the Bible.
There are churches that teach that it doesn't exist anymore, or at least it has moved or been renamed.

Jesus told the thief on the cross...
Luke 23:43; And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

In 2 Cor 2:2-4; Paul says he knew a man who was caught up to paradise (presumably himself)
2 Cor 12:4; was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

In the passage about the seven cheuches in Revelation, Jesus says..
Rev 2:7; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

In the passage about Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus mentions "Abraham's bosom"
Luke 16:22; "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

It was a common thought in the old testament that when you died, you went back to the "dust of the earth". It is difficult to find passages that speak
of heavenly after-life. Both Elijah and Enoch were caught up to heaven, while they were still alive. The words "hell and "hades" do not exist in the old testament,
however the word Sheol is quite common.

H7585
שְׁאֹל שְׁאוֹל
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.
Total KJV occurrences: 65

The common thought in the old testament was that your spirit returned to a place in the earth. There really is no language where it says when you die, you go to heaven.
However this changes somewhat in the new Testament. Most of things we know about Hell, we get from Jesus, out of the 13 times hell is mentioned in the new testament,
Jesus is speaking in 11 of those verses. The word "Hades is in the new testament 10 times, and 5 times Jesus is the one who is speaking.

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

Even though Jesus told the thief on the cross he would would be with Him in paradise "today". Did Jesus stay there every day after that?

John 1:18; No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

It seems Jesus is not in the Bosom of Abraham, but rather the bosom of the Father. Seated at the right hand of the Father.

The thought here is that paradise and hell are temporary places. Heaven, the new Jerusalem and the Lake of Fire are permanent places.

For example, everyone in hell and even hell itself, eventually gets thrown into the Lake of Fire. ( Rev 20:14; )

Lazarus and the the thief on the cross went to Paradise (or Abraham's bosom at it was known)
But did they stay there?

Eph 4:8; Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9; (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10; He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all thing

The thought here is, Jesus led those saints of the old testament out of Sheol, (Paradise/Abaraham's Bosom) and into heaven.

There is a whole other subject here, that has been talked about here on TalkJesus a few times, the mercy seat in heaven. The Bible says Jesus had to go to
the real tabernacle in heaven and do what priests here on earth did to the mercy seat. But instead of sprinkling the blood of an animal. Jesus sprinkled
His own blood. But once this happened, saints didn't go to Paradise anymore, but rather directly to heaven.

Now of course many believe in "soul sleep". (Our soul lies in the ground until we are called to rise on the last day, presumably the rapture or second coming).
But even if that is true, you still have to rise and eventually go somewhere. The question is... is it still Paradise?

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

 

[B-A-C]

In another thread someone stated "No where in the Bible does it ever say we go to heaven".
So I did a little research and study on my own to find out if that was true. Sure enough, there is no direct scripture that ever says we go to heaven.

There are verses that say we will be with Jesus. There are verses that say we are in the "kingdom" of heaven.
There are also some verses that say we will be in the kingdom of God. For the most part the terms kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven are used inter-changeably.
I would say that being in the kingdom of God, does not make us God.
I would also say that being in the kingdom of heaven, does not make us in heaven. Indeed we can be in the kingdom of heaven right now while we are still physically alive.
Some churches take this teaching so far as to say, this is the only heaven there is. You are in the kingdom of heaven right now, so therefore you are in heaven right now.

Back to being with Jesus. Eventually there is a place called the New Jerusalem that comes down "out of heaven". ( Rev 21:2; Rev 21:10; )
It says this is where Jesus will dwell. There is some debate on whether the new Jerusalem is heaven or not. But it's never called "heaven" in the Bible anywhere.

In any case, perhaps God's throne is moved from the metaphysical/spiritual heaven to the physical realm. (The New Jerusalem).

 

[Bendito]

Often here on TalkJesus we talk about important things. Like who will be in the kingdom of God and who will end up in the Lake of fire.
This topic is less important because I don't personally feel that anyone's salvation depends on it. Also it is a difficult subject to quantify.

But here we go.

Paradise/Abraham's Bosom is seemingly only mentioned a few places in the Bible.
There are churches that teach that it doesn't exist anymore, or at least it has moved or been renamed.

Jesus told the thief on the cross...
Luke 23:43; And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

In 2 Cor 2:2-4; Paul says he knew a man who was caught up to paradise (presumably himself)
2 Cor 12:4; was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

In the passage about the seven cheuches in Revelation, Jesus says..
Rev 2:7; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

In the passage about Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus mentions "Abraham's bosom"
Luke 16:22; "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

It was a common thought in the old testament that when you died, you went back to the "dust of the earth". It is difficult to find passages that speak
of heavenly after-life. Both Elijah and Enoch were caught up to heaven, while they were still alive. The words "hell and "hades" do not exist in the old testament,
however the word Sheol is quite common.

H7585
שְׁאֹל שְׁאוֹל
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.
Total KJV occurrences: 65

The common thought in the old testament was that your spirit returned to a place in the earth. There really is no language where it says when you die, you go to heaven.
However this changes somewhat in the new Testament. Most of things we know about Hell, we get from Jesus, out of the 13 times hell is mentioned in the new testament,
Jesus is speaking in 11 of those verses. The word "Hades is in the new testament 10 times, and 5 times Jesus is the one who is speaking.

... to be continued ...

Ephesians 4:8-10 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
8 This is why it says,

“After he went up into the heights,
he led captivity captive
and he gave gifts to mankind.”[a]

9 Now this phrase, “he went up,” what can it mean if not that he first went down into the lower parts, that is, the earth? 10 The one who went down is himself the one who also went up, far above all of heaven, in order to fill all things.

 

[Bendito]

Even though Jesus told the thief on the cross he would would be with Him in paradise "today". Did Jesus stay there every day after that?

John 1:18; No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

It seems Jesus is not in the Bosom of Abraham, but rather the bosom of the Father. Seated at the right hand of the Father.

The thought here is that paradise and hell are temporary places. Heaven, the new Jerusalem and the Lake of Fire are permanent places.

For example, everyone in hell and even hell itself, eventually gets thrown into the Lake of Fire. ( Rev 20:14; )

Lazarus and the the thief on the cross went to Paradise (or Abraham's bosom at it was known)
But did they stay there?

Eph 4:8; Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9; (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10; He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all thing

The thought here is, Jesus led those saints of the old testament out of Sheol, (Paradise/Abaraham's Bosom) and into heaven.

There is a whole other subject here, that has been talked about here on TalkJesus a few times, the mercy seat in heaven. The Bible says Jesus had to go to
the real tabernacle in heaven and do what priests here on earth did to the mercy seat. But instead of sprinkling the blood of an animal. Jesus sprinkled
His own blood. But once this happened, saints didn't go to Paradise anymore, but rather directly to heaven.

Now of course many believe in "soul sleep". (Our soul lies in the ground until we are called to rise on the last day, presumably the rapture or second coming).
But even if that is true, you still have to rise and eventually go somewhere. The question is... is it still Paradise?

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

New Jerusalem is not a permanent place on Earth though...It is on, rather, above the Earth during the Millenium then, at the end of the Millenium the Earth is judged, cleansed by fire...and New Jerusalem is taken back into Heaven because it does not need cleansing.

 

[Bendito]

In another thread someone stated "No where in the Bible does it ever say we go to heaven".
So I did a little research and study on my own to find out if that was true. Sure enough, there is no direct scripture that ever says we go to heaven.

There are verses that say we will be with Jesus. There are verses that say we are in the "kingdom" of heaven.
There are also some verses that say we will be in the kingdom of God. For the most part the terms kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven are used inter-changeably.
I would say that being in the kingdom of God, does not make us God.
I would also say that being in the kingdom of heaven, does not make us in heaven. Indeed we can be in the kingdom of heaven right now while we are still physically alive.
Some churches take this teaching so far as to say, this is the only heaven there is. You are in the kingdom of heaven right now, so therefore you are in heaven right now.

Back to being with Jesus. Eventually there is a place called the New Jerusalem that comes down "out of heaven". ( Rev 21:2; Rev 21:10; )
It says this is where Jesus will dwell. There is some debate on whether the new Jerusalem is heaven or not. But it's never called "heaven" in the Bible anywhere.

In any case, perhaps God's throne is moved from the metaphysical/spiritual heaven to the physical realm. (The New Jerusalem).

You are right again. New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven, and goes back again at the end of the millennium....New Jerusalem and Heaven are two different places, things...
I enjoy reading your thoughts, studies, ponderings. I like the way you think, and how you like to dig deep into the Word. Thank you.

 

[Dave M]

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

I have always thought that this is referring to the time period before Jesus not necessarily after Jesus .

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Sure enough, there is no direct scripture that ever says we go to heaven.

Paul actually addressed this unto the Believer
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Paradise was until Jesus took our place in hell and took back the keys of death.

Those that died prior to cross did hear Jesus Preached and accepted Him or not

Blessings

 

[Bill]

[UOTE="B-A-C, post: 319313, member: 16754"]Often here on TalkJesus we talk about important things. Like who will be in the kingdom of God and who will end up in the Lake of fire.
This topic is less important because I don't personally feel that anyone's salvation depends on it. Also it is a difficult subject to quantify.

But here we go.

Paradise/Abraham's Bosom is seemingly only mentioned a few places in the Bible.
There are churches that teach that it doesn't exist anymore, or at least it has moved or been renamed.

Jesus told the thief on the cross...
Luke 23:43; And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

In 2 Cor 2:2-4; Paul says he knew a man who was caught up to paradise (presumably himself)
2 Cor 12:4; was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

In the passage about the seven cheuches in Revelation, Jesus says..
Rev 2:7; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

In the passage about Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus mentions "Abraham's bosom"
Luke 16:22; "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

It was a common thought in the old testament that when you died, you went back to the "dust of the earth". It is difficult to find passages that speak
of heavenly after-life. Both Elijah and Enoch were caught up to heaven, while they were still alive. The words "hell and "hades" do not exist in the old testament,
however the word Sheol is quite common.

H7585
שְׁאֹל שְׁאוֹל
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.
Total KJV occurrences: 65

The common thought in the old testament was that your spirit returned to a place in the earth. There really is no language where it says when you die, you go to heaven.
However this changes somewhat in the new Testament. Most of things we know about Hell, we get from Jesus, out of the 13 times hell is mentioned in the new testament,
Jesus is speaking in 11 of those verses. The word "Hades is in the new testament 10 times, and 5 times Jesus is the one who is speaking.

... to be continued ...[/QUOTE]
Abraham's Bosum and Paradise are not the same thing. And yes There Is a Paradise

 

[Dovegiven]

Hades, the place of torment for the rich man, and Paradise, probably the same as "Abraham's Bosum", are within view and earshot of each other, and those words of Jesus indicate no "soul sleep", since the rich man and Abraham conversed.

According to Isa 66, describing the New Earth, Hades and its residents will be visible to people on the surface looking down what must be a pit(s), on the way to worship of God.
Isaiah 66:23-24 (KJV)
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Those "worms" of the condemned would not be visible much deeper than the deepest borehole that got over 7 miles deep, other than there being a great mass of billions of bodies writhing in lava, unable to burn up. Paradise would not be far away, a place for people who deserved to hear the Messiah's gospel if they had hope of him, like Abraham, who was not translated alive like Enoch and Elijah. They, such as Isaiah and Joel were not deserving of a place of torment. I doubt it is no more in existence, even though Jesus brought all those captives of Satan out of Paradise once Satan was defeated. Some people are already judged as Hades bound disbelievers not looking to see and hear from God, like the world of the Flood era. So was the rich man also already judged to suffer.

That, for me, places Paradise between the surface graves and Hades. It would be a good place for the generations of dead Jews who were taught to love God fiercely, yet not generally introduced to Jesus by their leadership., many kept in ignorance.

 

[Bendito]

Hell was, at that time, divided into the place for the saints and those condemned...When Jesus died he went to hell...The waiting place of the dead. He went to the bad side, kicked Satan off his bicycle and took the keys. Then He crossed to the Good side, preached to those saints then led them out of there into the presence of the Father... He led captivity captive....Those people were held there even in paradise...Why? Well the Word does not say but I'll bet you a cookie some of them would try to come back to tell others who were still alive the news. LOL Well, wouldn't you? So they were in effect, prisoners until they were led into the presence of the Father......Then the bad side expanded its borders and filled the area previously occupied by the saints.

 

[KingJ]

I am more concerned with understanding what got people into paradise over the other side of Hades. It was not Jesus. It has to be their repentance.

Hence, I don't believe Jesus ''preached'' to them. He merely gave them all the good news. Because of the cross, all those who repent truthfully can now be reconciled with God.

''The Greek word, Euangelion, which means to share the good news (gospel) is not used anywhere in this Passage (1 Pet 3:18-20). The Greek word is Kerusso, which is a more general word and means to make a proclamation.''

Is there a paradise today? What would be the reason for it? God wants us with Him, that is why He died for us. The only scripture we need is John 3:16.

Only Jews went to Abrahams bosom? Not a single Jew fulfilled the law / passed / was justified as sinless by the law. David repented. Jews repented. Nineveh a non-Jewish town, repented. I believe every single person who repented sincerely was there.

 

[Dave M]

I always view paradise as any place Jesus is, today paradise is here with me in my heart.

 

[Bill]

I always view paradise as any place Jesus is, today paradise is here with me in my heart.

Excellent

 

[Bill]

I always view paradise as any place Jesus is, today paradise is here with me in my heart.

Jesus states to the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradice. It is a place in the presence of God (the Father).

 

[Dovegiven]

I am more concerned with understanding what got people into paradise over the other side of Hades. It was not Jesus. It has to be their repentance.

Hence, I don't believe Jesus ''preached'' to them. He merely gave them all the good news. Because of the cross, all those who repent truthfully can now be reconciled with God.

''The Greek word, Euangelion, which means to share the good news (gospel) is not used anywhere in this Passage (1 Pet 3:18-20). The Greek word is Kerusso, which is a more general word and means to make a proclamation.''

Is there a paradise today? What would be the reason for it? God wants us with Him, that is why He died for us. The only scripture we need is John 3:16.

Only Jews went to Abrahams bosom? Not a single Jew fulfilled the law / passed / was justified as sinless by the law. David repented. Jews repented. Nineveh a non-Jewish town, repented. I believe every single person who repented sincerely was there.

Where would the clean living lovers of Jehovah God be without Jesus, dying between the ascendance and return of Jesus? What of many other groups of more modern people (1st century until the last day) who might have pleased God like those who died before Jesus descended into the belly of the earth?

Evil unrepentant people were and are judged already, the end of Revelation telling which will not enter into glory. When they die they go right on to Hades, soul and spirit (assuming the soul was not separated and destroyed before death) awaiting the resurrection of the dead, then great judgment, then the kicking of Satan off into the lake of fire, along with Hades and all it's citizenry itself. Meanwhile, the balance of people dying without Christ, but showing some faith His way, are not listed of the condemned, don't deserve the same treatment the captives in Paradise got, who all died without being born again while alive? What of those never having a chance at hearing the gospel? Romans 1-2 helps explain. At least a conscience record could be examined in Paradise, from there a determination made as to final eternal abode.

I agree that all true repenters were there to greet Jesus, ging him audience. I don't believe Abraham was kept there on that basis, as he went on to being the friend of God, pleasing God through his faith and works. There was no law for him to repent of lawful sins. The fact Abraham was there at all ought to indicate the place has a very important function, keeping judgment out of heaven. It apparently served as a "district court", determining whether a person goes on to prison or goes free to be with God (like Abraham it is assumed, not confirmed), so to speak, on a the basis of deeds done and light received. How sweet to be of Jesus, though, being hearers and doers of the word! What a relief!

Romans 2:9-16 (KJV)
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[KingJ]

Where would the clean living lovers of Jehovah God be without Jesus, dying between the ascendance and return of Jesus? What of many other groups of more modern people (1st century until the last day) who might have pleased God like those who died before Jesus descended into the belly of the earth?

First we need to understand that the gospel from God to mankind has from day 1 been to repent of sins truthfully. Even though Jews were stoned to death for mortal sins, if they repented they would still be in good standing with God Psalm 51:17.

All those who died before Jesus was resurrected, went to a waiting place as they had no advocate with the Father.

After Jesus was resurrected, we have an advocate with the Father. So nobody needs to go to a waiting place / paradise / Abraham's bosom.

If someone repents sincerely of their sins, they meet Jesus and are taken to heaven. That ''meeting of Jesus'' is something we like to control but need to grasp that that is God's doing. 1 Cor 12:3 'Nobody can call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit'. Matt 16:16-17 'Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven'.

This is why we can say John 14:6 'Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father but through Him'.

Evil unrepentant people were and are judged already, the end of Revelation telling which will not enter into glory. When they die they go right on to Hades, soul and spirit (assuming the soul was not separated and destroyed before death) awaiting the resurrection of the dead, then great judgment, then the kicking of Satan off into the lake of fire, along with Hades and all it's citizenry itself. Meanwhile, the balance of people dying without Christ, but showing some faith His way, are not listed of the condemned, don't deserve the same treatment the captives in Paradise got, who all died without being born again while alive? What of those never having a chance at hearing the gospel? Romans 1-2 helps explain. At least a conscience record could be examined in Paradise, from there a determination made as to final eternal abode.

I feel I have answered this above. But just to add. It is not our faith that saves. Our faith is evidence of being saved. God gives us the faith we need to believe Jesus is Lord. Outside of this what faith is needed? People have got so lost and warped their rational minds with faith teaching, it's insane.

Also, just think for a while on how God decided to choose Abraham. No Judaism. No Christianity. Impartial God.

I agree that all true repenters were there to greet Jesus, ging him audience. I don't believe Abraham was kept there on that basis, as he went on to being the friend of God, pleasing God through his faith and works. There was no law for him to repent of lawful sins. The fact Abraham was there at all ought to indicate the place has a very important function, keeping judgment out of heaven. It apparently served as a "district court", determining whether a person goes on to prison or goes free to be with God (like Abraham it is assumed, not confirmed), so to speak, on a the basis of deeds done and light received. How sweet to be of Jesus, though, being hearers and doers of the word! What a relief!

You are not understanding Abraham and repentance.

Abraham's faith was not blind faith. ''God of the universe told me to sacrifice my son, I will do so. I believe there is a God''. No! Abraham knew and believed God was good. Go read how Abraham questions God's goodness on the destruction of Sodom. Abraham obeyed God, was faithful because He knew God was good and must have had a very good reason for asking something so extreme of him. Abraham was a man much like David. After God's heart in that like God he also hated what is wicked and clung to what is good Rom 12:9. One of my favorite verses is Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good.

Now part and parcel of being after God's heart / hating what is wicked is truthful repentance. Abraham is in heaven because He would truthfully repent and accepted Jesus. Jesus did not preach to those in paradise ''repent of your sins'', He proclaimed the good news to them ''because you have repented / have sacrificed faithfully''.

 

[Dovegiven]

First we need to understand that the gospel from God to mankind has from day 1 been to repent of sins truthfully. Even though Jews were stoned to death for mortal sins, if they repented they would still be in good standing with God Psalm 51:17.

All those who died before Jesus was resurrected, went to a waiting place as they had no advocate with the Father.

After Jesus was resurrected, we have an advocate with the Father. So nobody needs to go to a waiting place / paradise / Abraham's bosom.

If someone repents sincerely of their sins, they meet Jesus and are taken to heaven. That ''meeting of Jesus'' is something we like to control but need to grasp that that is God's doing. 1 Cor 12:3 'Nobody can call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit'. Matt 16:16-17 'Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven'.

This is why we can say John 14:6 'Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father but through Him'.

I feel I have answered this above. But just to add. It is not our faith that saves. Our faith is evidence of being saved. God gives us the faith we need to believe Jesus is Lord. Outside of this what faith is needed? People have got so lost and warped their rational minds with faith teaching, it's insane.

Also, just think for a while on how God decided to choose Abraham. No Judaism. No Christianity. Impartial God.

You are not understanding Abraham and repentance.

Abraham's faith was not blind faith. ''God of the universe told me to sacrifice my son, I will do so. I believe there is a God''. No! Abraham knew and believed God was good. Go read how Abraham questions God's goodness on the destruction of Sodom. Abraham obeyed God, was faithful because He knew God was good and must have had a very good reason for asking something so extreme of him. Abraham was a man much like David. After God's heart in that like God he also hated what is wicked and clung to what is good Rom 12:9. One of my favorite verses is Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good.

Now part and parcel of being after God's heart / hating what is wicked is truthful repentance. Abraham is in heaven because He would truthfully repent and accepted Jesus. Jesus did not preach to those in paradise ''repent of your sins'', He proclaimed the good news to them ''because you have repented / have sacrificed faithfully''.

Faith alone doesn't save anyone. Grace from God is made possible by the blood of Jesus, which is available before anyone has faith in the blood. We are saved by grace through faith. Faith without works is dead, even weak works that won't burn up in the judgment of works by Christ. Abram heard God in the Chaldees, to pick up and go to a place He would show. That wasn't the basis of Abram's salvation, and neither was the contemplated shedding of Isaac's blood, or any other act in his life. The Abrahamic Covevant was launched for Abraham and his heirs to benefit by, which is the root of Judaism and later Christianity. He had to wait like practically everyone else (just Enoch and Elijah) who had respect for God before him and until Jesus died on the cross for the sin of the world. Those two have to be returned to die physically and be counted under the covenant of Jesus' blood. Even the prophets didn't see the coming gospel in it's glorious light. Their revelations could only be explained after Jesus' blood was shed, them learning the connection while in Paradise. David could not enter heaven either until Jesus' blood was taken before the Father. For the folks held captive by Satan in Paradise, their only remaining work was to hear the gospel of Christ, believe it, and follow Jesus on His way back out. Their works of faith granted them a place of comfort in Sheol instead of joining the wicked dead in the pit of Sheol.

The faithful heirs of Abraham, the "Jews" (more accurately "Israel") would not have been left on the other side of Paradise, those who submitted to the Law, found annual covering of sins. What difference for Jews since that day when Paradise was emptied, presumed to zero population that day? So why wouldn't it begin filling back up of those who might love God but had not the gospel since 2000 years ago? The ignorant of Christ burn in Hell? Their judgment is yet to come. I don't believe they are asleep in the grave (soul sleep). That didn't qualify them to go into eternal bliss in Heaven until believing on Jesus. Those that rejected Jesus would not qualify for favor to wait in a place like Paradise, but faced the horror of Hell, though not yet the lake of fire when Hell is put in it.

So of course those sealed by the Spirit, under the benefit of the blood of Jesus, would not be kept in Paradise, but are with Jesus. I didn't say we go to Paradise. The evil, wicked, unrepentant disbelievers bypass it on their way to the pit. We go up leaving body behind for now.

 

[B-A-C]

I am more concerned with understanding what got people into paradise over the other side of Hades. It was not Jesus. It has to be their repentance.

I don't think anyone ever went over to the other side. (This is the problem with purgatory).
If you were on the Hades side of Sheol you stayed there. (Those people are probably still there today).
If you were on the Paradise side of Sheol, you didn't cross over to the Hades side.

The Bible there were some people under the old law who were "perfect and blameless" before the Lord.
(Noah, Job, Elizabeth and Zacharias)
But even people in the OT were saved by faith. They didn't necessarily know who Jesus' was or know His name.
But they believed God had a plan, and they obeyed Him by faith.
The Bible says Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven. It says Noah found favor with the Lord.
It says David was a man after God's own heart. It says (he hated Esau) but He loved Jacob.
It says Michael and Satan fought over the body of Moses. The point here is, people in OT times were still saved.
Just not by belief specifically in Jesus.

 

[KingJ]

I don't think anyone ever went over to the other side. (This is the problem with purgatory).
If you were on the Hades side of Sheol you stayed there. (Those people are probably still there today).
If you were on the Paradise side of Sheol, you didn't cross over to the Hades side.

I agree, you have miss-read my line.

The Bible there were some people under the old law who were "perfect and blameless" before the Lord.
(Noah, Job, Elizabeth and Zacharias)
But even people in the OT were saved by faith. They didn't necessarily know who Jesus' was or know His name.
But they believed God had a plan, and they obeyed Him by faith.
The Bible says Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven. It says Noah found favor with the Lord.
It says David was a man after God's own heart. It says (he hated Esau) but He loved Jacob.
It says Michael and Satan fought over the body of Moses. The point here is, people in OT times were still saved.
Just not by belief specifically in Jesus.

Whilst you are correct, because of all the heretic faith teaching going around today, saving faith and being blameless needs to be further explained. Perhaps another thread?

Take those who worshipped the golden calf as an example. They could have had 10/10 faith in God's plan and existence, they still gave in to their carnal desires / disobedience at a great depth of intent / rebellion to God and they will not have made it to paradise, unless they truly repented just before God struck them dead.

The only words that do not need 'further' explaining are the words 'truthful repentance''. Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

The Bible says Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven

That was just another type of paradise. John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.