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Does mankind really have free will?

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:18)

Active Member
God hardened Pharaoh,s heart. Interfered with his free will. Ex 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
Pharaoh hardened his heart to God in verse 7. Please re-read my post 2.
 
Active Member
In the garden of Eden with newly created physically as adults Adam and Eve but mentally innocent as new born babies. Why are you ducking the issue?
Not ducking. You said God put evil incarnate with little babies.

Now you have shown you know it was with ''adults''. I am sure that if you think further on it you will grasp that if evil incarnate is with them and they are not .....dead.....God is protecting them / limiting evil incarnate from having free reign.

I am also glad to hear you acknowledge that God created them mentally innocent. What you are not grasping / ignoring perhaps is that an adult has a will and intelligence that does not want to be in slavery of any sought. If God never put the devil there, it was just a matter of time before Adam and Eve would rebel to His will / sin. God put the devil there to speed up an inevitable fall. God created mankind intelligent and just beneath the angels.

It is God's will that mankind have this free will. That is why He created earth and all there is for mankind. Wolves with big teeth lay with lambs.

If we are going to judge God, let's do so properly and try grasp the bigger picture.
 
Loyal Member
@Victor Van Heerden
Really the expression "free will" as you describe it in the OP is one thing, but the ultimate choices gives to men may be another. There are only two ways from which to choose that matter as Jesus divides them here:

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" Matt 6:24

These are the very same choices that Adam and Eve had in the Garden of Eden. This is the only free choice that ultimately matters in God and the things of God. Anyone who chooses the wrong one, that is who chooses mammon or anything other than God first is a dead man. That is our choice: Life or death!

To me this is our so called free will... or at least the only choice that ultimately matters. Jesus also said:


"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
 
Loyal Member
Pharaoh hardened his heart to God in verse 7. Please re-read my post 2.
Yes, you are corret. Pharaoh hardened his heart 6 times before God hardened Pharaoh's heart. As was said in another thread. If you reject God enough times, He will give you what you want.
 
Loyal Member
Would you put innocents who have no experience whatsoever especially of good and evil, have just popped into existence like new born babies in the presence of the most evil, deceptive and manipulative person in the entire universe. I certainly hope not. Why did God do it?
The very first thing God told Adam.......

Gen 2:15 And the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to tend and guard and keep it.

If God gave Adam authority over all the works of his hands, and if Adam's "job" was to guard and protect the garden, then whose was responsible for letting the Serpent in?
 
Loyal Member
Nope - i have been waiting for a long time for Jesus to come back and sort out the world. He promised to come back in His generation 2 000 years ago, then when he did not, it was supposed to be in the generation after 1948. Well still waiting.
Millions of people have been asking that same question since the beginning......

2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.


People that ask this same question are totally ignorant of the fact that all things are NOT continuing as they have from the beginning. God destroyed the world with a flood because of man's wickedness. The Lord God is actively operating on the behalf of those who ask him to by faith!
 
Millions of people have been asking that same question since the beginning......

2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.


People that ask this same question are totally ignorant of the fact that all things are NOT continuing as they have from the beginning. God destroyed the world with a flood because of man's wickedness. The Lord God is actively operating on the behalf of those who ask him to by faith!

Been waiting since 1969 which is a very long time after our Lord ascended to heaven. He said he would return in His generation but did not and that is why people were mocking when is He coming back at that time and even now two millennia later! Matthew 16:27-28, Mark 9:1, Matthew 24:33-34

I see you quote the pseudonymous author of 2 Peter - writing decades after the crucifixion, who was obviously acutely aware of the problem of Jesus not fulfilling prophecy and returning in His generation like He said He would, so he helpfully offered an explanation:

Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”… But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:3-4, 8-9


Notice he meant in his time when he referenced the last days. He did not mean 2000 years into the future. How could he have? No one goes around currently talking about what will happen in the year 4019AD.
 
Loyal Member
Been waiting since 1969 which is a very long time after our Lord ascended to heaven. He said he would return in His generation but did not and that is why people were mocking when is He coming back at that time and even now two millennia later! Matthew 16:27-28, Mark 9:1, Matthew 24:33-34

I see you quote the pseudonymous author of 2 Peter - writing decades after the crucifixion, who was obviously acutely aware of the problem of Jesus not fulfilling prophecy and returning in His generation like He said He would, so he helpfully offered an explanation:

Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”… But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:3-4, 8-9


Notice he meant in his time when he referenced the last days. He did not mean 2000 years into the future. How could he have? No one goes around currently talking about what will happen in the year 4019AD.
You are greatly mistaken in that in Matt 16:27-28, and Mark 9:1 is NOT referring to the "rapture" of the Church or the "second coming" of Jesus, it is referring to Jesus being "Transfigured" upon the Mount of transfiguration. Peter, James, and John were there to witness it first hand.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mar 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
Mar 9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Mar 9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Matt 24:33-34 Has nothing to do with the "rapture" of Church as there will be no signs that foretell that event. The greatest sign of all concerning the "second coming" of Jesus is the "rapture" of the Church.
 
Active Member
Not ducking. You said God put evil incarnate with little babies.

Now you have shown you know it was with ''adults''. I am sure that if you think further on it you will grasp that if evil incarnate is with them and they are not .....dead.....God is protecting them / limiting evil incarnate from having free reign.

I am also glad to hear you acknowledge that God created them mentally innocent. What you are not grasping / ignoring perhaps is that an adult has a will and intelligence that does not want to be in slavery of any sought. If God never put the devil there, it was just a matter of time before Adam and Eve would rebel to His will / sin. God put the devil there to speed up an inevitable fall. God created mankind intelligent and just beneath the angels.

It is God's will that mankind have this free will. That is why He created earth and all there is for mankind. Wolves with big teeth lay with lambs.

If we are going to judge God, let's do so properly and try grasp the bigger picture.


God Did create the garden of eden as a perfect environment for Adam and Eve and all the future generations.

The serpent was satan's attempt to make mankind doubt God's authority. And it was a success. The situation was that God gave Adam and Eve One rule. They could have Anything in that garden they wanted. Except the fruit from that One tree. Were they able to follow that one rule? No. Satan planted doubt in their minds about God's authority. And he lied to them, too. They Did eat of that fruit and they Did all of a sudden have the knowledge of both good and Evil and they Would eventually die instead of living in that perfect environment Forever. Their physical body would Die -- but their souls would live on forever.

Let's Not judge God.
 
Active Member
So -- you feel we Should be judging God?! That would be putting either God on our level or us on His level. Neither of which is true.
God gave us brains. When He did that, He gave us the ability to judge Him. You are not incorrect in saying we cannot fully judge God. As we cannot fully grasp God. But this does not mean we cannot judge what we can grasp. Especially when there is so much evidence of God dealing with us on our level and where He can, taking us to His level. As Gen 3:22 clearly states '''we know what is good and evil just as He does''.

How is an intelligent creation to accept Jesus if we can't judge what Jesus did being good? Would you be ok with serving a wicked God? Serve the 'god' who is in charge?
 
Active Member
Yes, God Did give us brains -- and wisdom. We have no business judging God. And, yes, God Does deal with us on our level. He is the Creator -- we are the created. We won't ever be on God's level. And, yes, as a result of eating that forbidden fruit -- we Do have knowledge of both good and evil. But as human beings we don't use that knowledge very well.

God Did say that everything He created was 'good' during that six days of His creating. We cannot fully understand God and we never will. He's God and He's NOT wicked. God is sovereign --He's in charge. We need to learn of Him and Obey -- Trust in Him.
 
New Member
Quantrill,
re: "God, on the other hand has free will. Nothing comes to Him that is not already known to Him."

Does that include knowing before He creates a person whether or not He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire?
 
Active Member
God Does have all-knowledge (omniscience) -- so yes -- God Does have that knowledge.

Chances are that if it was up to Us -- we'd either have Everyone in heaven or only the Really Bad people end up in hell. But 'we' are in No position To make that decision. Thankfully
 
New Member
Sue D.
re: "God Does have all-knowledge (omniscience) -- so yes -- God Does have that knowledge."

But if He knows that He would be casting the person into the lake of fire if He were to create them, why do you suppose He goes ahead and creates the person anyway?
 
Active Member
Quantrill,
re: "God, on the other hand has free will. Nothing comes to Him that is not already known to Him."

Does that include knowing before He creates a person whether or not He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire?
God limits His omniscience on knowing something if knowing it is evil. Partiality is evil. It is a truth that has to come to us as it did to Peter in Acts 10:34 ''Of a truth I perceive, God is no respecter of persons''.

He clearly limits His omnipotence, He would definitely also limit His omniscience to uphold being good and impartial. Just because God can do anything, does not mean He does. Likewise just because God can know everything, does not mean He does. God is a good as He is great.
 

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