Stylez4Christ
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Do you believed women could be a pastor?
Do you believe women could be a pastor?
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I know of women ministers in church of England churches over here.
Even in Salvation army they have Majors who are women and they preach the message just as good as any male preacher.
God bless
LLJ
:rainbow: :rose:
Even in Salvation army they have Majors who are women and they preach the message just as good as any male preacher.
God bless
LLJ
:rainbow: :rose:Stylez4Christ
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Oh ok.. I think the internet can confuse me because there people that don't believed in that.:embarasseI know of women ministers in church of England churches over here.
Even in Salvation army they have Majors who are women and they preach the message just as good as any male preacher.
God bless
LLJ
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It's not what we believe, it's what's written in God's word that counts.
For what I read in the Bible so far, I have not seen one women pastor, but I have seen a prophetess.
Exo 15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
Jdg 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
2Ki 22:14 So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asahiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college
and they communed with her.2Ch 34:22 And Hilkiah, and they that the king had appointed, went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college
and they spake to her to that effect.Neh 6:14 My God, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and on the prophetess Noadiah, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear.
Isa 8:3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.
Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Stylez4Christ
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No where in the bible speak against women for being a pastor:lightbulb
Watch what you say, is not against the bible. I believed they go by the man made traditions.
Cody
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How can a woman not take authority from a man if she's a pastor? To be the pastor of a church, you have to be the leader. The Bible teaches women to not take authority over man. That's like man taking authority from God.
Ephesians 5:21-25
21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" KJV
Even though women can't be the lead in church, that doesn't mean women can't participate in church and help in other ways. We need both men and women to help a church run good. God has gave men and women specific roles and we must follow them. If you haven't read it already, read more about this in this thread I typed up...
Women Preachers?
Ephesians 5:21-25
21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" KJV
Even though women can't be the lead in church, that doesn't mean women can't participate in church and help in other ways. We need both men and women to help a church run good. God has gave men and women specific roles and we must follow them. If you haven't read it already, read more about this in this thread I typed up...
Women Preachers?
I recall a lady Pastor at an A of G fellowship just a few miles down the road. She took the Pastorate following a scandal with the previous male Pastor, which devastated the church.
This lady was known in the area prior to taking this position. She had a lovely spirit of love and compassion, could preach His word, and was a graduate of the A of G bible college in the U.K. She remained there many years, and brought the testimony back into credibility. She did a tremendous job.
It is essential that a Pastor cares for people. Amy Semple McPherson would be the earliest Pastor/Evangelist I could recall. I say this because I once read a book, many years ago, telling about her ministry. This lady loved people and desired to see them love Jesus. REcords inform of big gatherings, salvation and miracles.
God uses willing vessels.
This lady was known in the area prior to taking this position. She had a lovely spirit of love and compassion, could preach His word, and was a graduate of the A of G bible college in the U.K. She remained there many years, and brought the testimony back into credibility. She did a tremendous job.
It is essential that a Pastor cares for people. Amy Semple McPherson would be the earliest Pastor/Evangelist I could recall. I say this because I once read a book, many years ago, telling about her ministry. This lady loved people and desired to see them love Jesus. REcords inform of big gatherings, salvation and miracles.
God uses willing vessels.
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Stylez4Christ
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That a amen rite there and I agree what you said 100%.
I believed it is import for a Pastor to have a wife because she is that type of wife that encourages her husband when doing ministry work gets at rough times because being a senior pastor in that congregation is not a easy job even in a small church and a small amount of people and that’s where the pastors have to work harder in order for his ministry to keep it alive but without a wife the pastor in his ministry might shut down in rent but that not always a case because God will bless him for his hard work but I believed the women Pastor need to be a pastor for the women in the church and I see women are more likely to have gift of a powerful strong worshiping and praying because they women are prayer warriors and I believed there the ones that keep the ministry on a ball game and to see them grow and how much God bless those small front store churches where you see it allot like NYC such as the Bronx, Brooklyn but is allot small churches up in the NY Tri-states such as NJ and CT because my church use to be in a small building well a store front until we rent a bigger one which it use to be a bar and a night clubs and I heard it had like 2 murders there.
Plus the rent up here is allot, along with high tax and Connecticut I heard has the highest taxes in the nation. See now my pastor use to work 4 jobs and almost lost his condo or his house because all that money that he has to put in it.. But really, my co- pastor she is a really a big helper.. Plus the lord really set my pastor free from financial problems but it was even harder because of the people in my church are school children’s and teenagers and that’s what made it harder in renting a building why’ll doing ministry work because not everybody pay tithes and offering accept giving a donate or do what we call tag with someone or tag team and what we do is we do hold hands on that money like more the 2 people we all pray together and sometimes we all walk together toward the altar to put the money in the bucket but when it comes to age 3-18 years old, but the grown folks would say it is great to see young kids praising God and sometimes my pastor give his money away to the one who has no money because he says I want to see to you get bless or maybe like not robbing God but hey when I first came to my church in my first time in a Sunday service I had no money and he gave me 10 dollar and I still remember that!
SpiritLedEd
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1 Cor 11:5 says, "If a woman prays or prophesies with her head uncovered, she dishonors her head......"
It seems to me that in speaking of women prophesying, Paul is tacitly admitting that women could and did speak in the meeting place, but not during the actual service. Surely their prophesying was not limited to times when they were away from the meeting place; not attending services with the corporate body of believers.
SLE
It seems to me that in speaking of women prophesying, Paul is tacitly admitting that women could and did speak in the meeting place, but not during the actual service. Surely their prophesying was not limited to times when they were away from the meeting place; not attending services with the corporate body of believers.
SLE
It sounds to me like you all are saying that God is being biblically incorrect by appointing women to carry a message to His people.
And that Galations has no meaning to you. If we are neither Jew, gentile, male, female, slave or free but new creations then what is your legalistic measuring rod to differentiate who can preach to you?
After the Israelites where at Mount Sania getting the law (read Galatians 4 to see this represents law and not grace) they were told to go further and enter the good land, but they considered themselves grasshoppers and the giants too big so only 2 entered. Of the new leaders was Deborah, a married woman. They had moved beyond Mt. Sania, but then chose to go back under the law by having a king appointed over them. So. no. I don't think God is being biblically incorrect in appointing women leaders. Are you placing yourself with those of the law or those of grace?
Abraham stood by and watched the abuse between Ishmael and Isaac just as David did between his children but that didn't mean that what they did was right. We are all supposed to be part of the bride but it seems we like to play the part of the husband so much more. God loves His body as He loves Himself. If we are in Christ we are one with Him. If we are of the law then that is still a learning tool to be used to move on to bigger and better things.
We all know that Paul was speaking to immature Christians when he outlined the formation of a church. Previously the apostles had women leading prayers in their houses, but that was among Spiritled people.
Paul was dealing with new converts and I think that 2000 years later it's time to make a distinction and stop dividing the body in terms of sex. Remember it wasn't the women who needed to be circumcised. Let's just get over it once and for all.
edit to add:
The man who doesn't love his wife "as much as himself" his prayers will be hindered. That has to do with Christ and His church. I honestly believe this is one of the major factors and fractions in the church today and a very real hinderance to God's move on earth.
I have been one who has God revealing things to me and for me to present them to the body means fighting thru predjudices and square one over and over again with no resolve. I think men's prayes are being hindered by this lack of love and acceptance. Not of who is giving the message but of the message itself. I think it's very sad. I change is long overdo. Where's Constantine when you need him.
And that Galations has no meaning to you. If we are neither Jew, gentile, male, female, slave or free but new creations then what is your legalistic measuring rod to differentiate who can preach to you?
After the Israelites where at Mount Sania getting the law (read Galatians 4 to see this represents law and not grace) they were told to go further and enter the good land, but they considered themselves grasshoppers and the giants too big so only 2 entered. Of the new leaders was Deborah, a married woman. They had moved beyond Mt. Sania, but then chose to go back under the law by having a king appointed over them. So. no. I don't think God is being biblically incorrect in appointing women leaders. Are you placing yourself with those of the law or those of grace?
Abraham stood by and watched the abuse between Ishmael and Isaac just as David did between his children but that didn't mean that what they did was right. We are all supposed to be part of the bride but it seems we like to play the part of the husband so much more. God loves His body as He loves Himself. If we are in Christ we are one with Him. If we are of the law then that is still a learning tool to be used to move on to bigger and better things.
We all know that Paul was speaking to immature Christians when he outlined the formation of a church. Previously the apostles had women leading prayers in their houses, but that was among Spiritled people.
Paul was dealing with new converts and I think that 2000 years later it's time to make a distinction and stop dividing the body in terms of sex. Remember it wasn't the women who needed to be circumcised. Let's just get over it once and for all.
edit to add:
The man who doesn't love his wife "as much as himself" his prayers will be hindered. That has to do with Christ and His church. I honestly believe this is one of the major factors and fractions in the church today and a very real hinderance to God's move on earth.
I have been one who has God revealing things to me and for me to present them to the body means fighting thru predjudices and square one over and over again with no resolve. I think men's prayes are being hindered by this lack of love and acceptance. Not of who is giving the message but of the message itself. I think it's very sad. I change is long overdo. Where's Constantine when you need him.
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The bible -
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 1 Tim 2:12
Thats the word of God and to me its clear - women are not to have that role. It is response to such verses as that that i would not be willing to sit under a women pastor. And to put it simpler -
23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. (Rom 14)
This verse may address specifically food but its the same with this issue to. If for me its wrong then thats that. If i would not be doing it in faith then its sin.
And some prefer the new wine. I think of the fruit of the spirit as a cluster of grapes, not each as a different fruit but an all-inclusive group.
Galatians 5:22-23
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
When our grapes are squeezed to make wine we should be sure that what we have is a sweet fragrance and pleasing to God.
I try to keep my words sweet also since one day I may have to eat them and what is pleasing to God is of my main concern, not how to please man. The fruit of the Spirit also says, against these things there is no law, so to even think law is against the Holy Spirit imo.
Galatians 5:22-23
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
When our grapes are squeezed to make wine we should be sure that what we have is a sweet fragrance and pleasing to God.
I try to keep my words sweet also since one day I may have to eat them and what is pleasing to God is of my main concern, not how to please man. The fruit of the Spirit also says, against these things there is no law, so to even think law is against the Holy Spirit imo.
Philip had four daughters ,all prophesied
Miriam, Moses sister, a prophetess. Ex 15 : 20
Deborah...All the men were afraid when she took charge. Jd 4 : 4
Anna in the N.T. Luke 2 : 36
Do I believe a womwn could be Pastor...........Looking at the word Pastor I do not see any reference to gender........
I am not arguing...............I have seen lady Pastors pick up the pieces after .........and bind up broken hearts.
Miriam, Moses sister, a prophetess. Ex 15 : 20
Deborah...All the men were afraid when she took charge. Jd 4 : 4
Anna in the N.T. Luke 2 : 36
Do I believe a womwn could be Pastor...........Looking at the word Pastor I do not see any reference to gender........
I am not arguing...............I have seen lady Pastors pick up the pieces after .........and bind up broken hearts.
Cody
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Let us look for a moment at the women in Scripture who are frequently held forth as examples for women preachers today.
The foremost Bible example of a woman leader is DEBORAH. Why did God make Deborah a judge in Israel (Jud. 4:4-5)? The answer is not difficult. The men in Deborah’s day were very weak and cowardly. This is seen in the fact that Barak, the captain of the armies of Israel, refused to go into battle unless Deborah went with him. The woman had to remind him that God had said it is time to fight; the woman had to encourage and challenge him to go; yea, the woman had to go with him!
“And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go” (Jud. 4:8).
Deborah clearly realized that this was not right nor natural, and she told Barak it would not result in his honor. “And she said, I will surely go with thee; notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; FOR THE LORD SHALL SELL SISERA INTO THE HAND OF A WOMAN...” (Jud. 4:9).
Obviously it was a period in Israel’s history during which God could find no man to do His will, so He used a brave, willing woman. We can praise God for women like Deborah who are willing to be strong when the men are weak. This has often happened, both in secular and in church history.
The problem in Deborah’s day was spiritual apostasy. When God’s people turn away from Him, He renders men powerless against their enemies and removes wisdom from their hearts. It is a judgment upon apostate people. We can see this very thing today in apostate North America and Europe. In general the leaders are weak and seem entirely lacking even in common sense. They cannot control their little children and women rule over them (compare Is. 3:12). This is God’s judgment because of the apostate condition of professing Christians. In Deborah’s day Israel was in bondage to their enemies only because of their apostasy from the true God and His Scriptures (Jud. 4:1-2). This was why the men were so weak. God had removed their power as He did from sinful Samson.
“Therefore the flight shall perish from the swift, and the strong shall not strengthen his force, neither shall the mighty deliver himself. ... And he that is courageous among the mighty shall flee away naked in that day, saith the Lord” (Amos 2:14-15).
Someone might ask, “If God called Deborah to judge in Israel of old, perhaps He would call a woman to lead in a church today?” This cannot be so, because God’s Word has expressly forbidden the woman to teach or usurp authority over men in the churches (1 Timothy 2:11-12). We must rightly divide the Word of Truth. We do not get our instructions for church work in the Old Testament; we get them from the New Testament. That is very basic.
What about the DAUGHTERS OF PHILIP? They were prophetesses (Acts 21:8-9). Doesn’t this mean that women can preach to men in exercising their gifts of prophecy? Not at all. That is strictly forbidden in 1 Timothy chapter two. The fact that God gives ministry gifts to women does not mean they are free to take authority in the church or to ignore the apostolic injunction against preaching to or teaching men.
Women Leaders in the Bible
The foremost Bible example of a woman leader is DEBORAH. Why did God make Deborah a judge in Israel (Jud. 4:4-5)? The answer is not difficult. The men in Deborah’s day were very weak and cowardly. This is seen in the fact that Barak, the captain of the armies of Israel, refused to go into battle unless Deborah went with him. The woman had to remind him that God had said it is time to fight; the woman had to encourage and challenge him to go; yea, the woman had to go with him!
“And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go” (Jud. 4:8).
Deborah clearly realized that this was not right nor natural, and she told Barak it would not result in his honor. “And she said, I will surely go with thee; notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; FOR THE LORD SHALL SELL SISERA INTO THE HAND OF A WOMAN...” (Jud. 4:9).
Obviously it was a period in Israel’s history during which God could find no man to do His will, so He used a brave, willing woman. We can praise God for women like Deborah who are willing to be strong when the men are weak. This has often happened, both in secular and in church history.
The problem in Deborah’s day was spiritual apostasy. When God’s people turn away from Him, He renders men powerless against their enemies and removes wisdom from their hearts. It is a judgment upon apostate people. We can see this very thing today in apostate North America and Europe. In general the leaders are weak and seem entirely lacking even in common sense. They cannot control their little children and women rule over them (compare Is. 3:12). This is God’s judgment because of the apostate condition of professing Christians. In Deborah’s day Israel was in bondage to their enemies only because of their apostasy from the true God and His Scriptures (Jud. 4:1-2). This was why the men were so weak. God had removed their power as He did from sinful Samson.
“Therefore the flight shall perish from the swift, and the strong shall not strengthen his force, neither shall the mighty deliver himself. ... And he that is courageous among the mighty shall flee away naked in that day, saith the Lord” (Amos 2:14-15).
Someone might ask, “If God called Deborah to judge in Israel of old, perhaps He would call a woman to lead in a church today?” This cannot be so, because God’s Word has expressly forbidden the woman to teach or usurp authority over men in the churches (1 Timothy 2:11-12). We must rightly divide the Word of Truth. We do not get our instructions for church work in the Old Testament; we get them from the New Testament. That is very basic.
What about the DAUGHTERS OF PHILIP? They were prophetesses (Acts 21:8-9). Doesn’t this mean that women can preach to men in exercising their gifts of prophecy? Not at all. That is strictly forbidden in 1 Timothy chapter two. The fact that God gives ministry gifts to women does not mean they are free to take authority in the church or to ignore the apostolic injunction against preaching to or teaching men.
Women Leaders in the Bible
Cody
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When I hear the word Deacon, I think of this verse. A Deacon must be in control of his family because if he couldn't lead his family, then he sure couldn't lead a church properly.
1 Timothy 3:10-12
10 "And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." KJV
1 Timothy 3:10-12
10 "And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." KJV
Have you ever noticed how all behaviors are aimed at the women? That's because we are all to take the sunmissive role to God. The men are only coached in how to behave toward their wives. Except that they are all told to pray and worship with their hands lifted upwards. I think that means "I give up and leave it to the Master" I hope you all are doing that.
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1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
(below is a general summary from an article at gotquestions.org)
Paul restricts women from spiritual teaching over men including pastoring.
Some objections to 1 Timothy 2:11-14
Book of Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).
The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the "reason" perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with "for" and gives the "cause" of what Paul stated in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because - "Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived." That is the reason. God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a "helper" for Adam. This order of Creation has universal application to humanity in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church.
Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would include women serving as pastors / preachers. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with how God has gifted them.
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
(below is a general summary from an article at gotquestions.org)
Paul restricts women from spiritual teaching over men including pastoring.
Some objections to 1 Timothy 2:11-14
- Paul's restriction is due to women being uneducated in first century
- Paul only restricted the Ephesian women from teaching
- Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general
- Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Priscilla, Phoebe, etc. - women who held positions of leadership in the Bible
Book of Acts 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).
The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the "reason" perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with "for" and gives the "cause" of what Paul stated in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because - "Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived." That is the reason. God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a "helper" for Adam. This order of Creation has universal application to humanity in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church.
Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would include women serving as pastors / preachers. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with how God has gifted them.
How do you reconcile that with what you posted here in the bible question thread?
Quote from Chad
Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive? It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so.
1 Corinthians 11:5, "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."
Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that?
With all this in mind, what then do we make of the troubling verses that command women to be silent in the churches? First of all, we must interpret those verses in light of what we have just established--that there were women in leadership positions of the church. Obviously, Paul is not writing to them. He is must be addressing another issue entirely--the women who were loud and unruly during the service, causing disorder and confusion..
When he wrote the Corinthians, he was dealing with a church that was very disorderly in their services. Much of the letter was spent correcting excesses and abuses. Some of these pertained to women in particular and some were to the entire church. Paul is not being prejudiced against women when he instructs the Corinthian women to keep silence. In the early church the seating arrangement was quite different from our modern day churches. Men were seated on one side of the church while the women and children were seated on the opposite side. This is still practiced in many cultures today.
The women of Christ's day were generally uneducated and usually only the men were privileged with an education. Due to this situation, when the church met the women were tempted to shout across the room and ask their husbands the meaning of whatever was being taught. This disturbed the service. Paul was simply saying during the service, "Women, keep your children quiet and you be quiet, and if you have anything to ask your husbands, wait until you get home." Because of the new equality that Christianity brought to women, it could be that some of them were taking their freedom too far, to the point of being obnoxious.
When Paul wrote to Timothy, he gave him a similar directive. Again, it is important to understand the context in which the letter was written. In I Timothy, a careful reader becomes aware that many severe heresies and false teachings that were being dealt with. We can draw a conclusion here that many of the proponents and victims of the false teachings were women. Timothy pastored in Ephesus, and it has been suggested that goddess worship might have played a large part in Paul dealing so severely with the women. Ephesus was a primary center of the worship of Diana or Artemis. The heresies being taught might have suggested that women were authoritative over men and had higher access to spiritual knowledge than men did.
Regardless of the particulars, in both cases we can see that Paul is dealing with specific incidents in specific churches for very particular reasons.
We must understand that many of Paul's epistles dealt with local problems and his commandments are not meant to be taken as "commandments" across the board for all situations. Rather, we are to seek the Lord for the basic principal that needs to be incorporated in our churches. Because of Old Testament precedents that had already been set, apparently it never occurred to Paul re-establish the case for women in ministry. Why would he need to? The early church took it as a matter of course that Jesus would call and ordain anyone He chose--and that settled it! As a matter of fact, the Bible mentions a prophetess who was in the Temple when Jesus was brought there as a baby. Her name was Anna (Luke 2:25-35), and she was one of two people who recognized Jesus as the Messiah because of her sensitivity to the Holy Spirit.
Paul's writings are sometimes misunderstood today because we do not know all the details that led him to write as he did. We must rely on the Holy Spirit, and the rest of the testimony of Scripture to interpret how we are to apply these things to our everyday lives. Scripture should always be compared with other Scripture and the context taken into consideration. Even in Paul's day, there were those who tried to twist the meaning his words.
"...His (Paul's) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do other Scriptures, to their own destruction" ( 2 Peter 3:16).
It is a fair conclusion that the testimony of the bulk of Scripture, church history and God's anointing upon them, all speak plainly for women being able to fulfill all positions of the five-fold offices of apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist and teacher.
Ministering Today
It has always been a strange doctrine that will allow women to go to foreign mission fields and teach heathen men, but will not allow the "heathen" men at home to be taught by the same women! It makes absolutely no sense to think that a female who is learned in the Scriptures cannot teach a male who is unlearned. Additionally, it is acceptable for many women to teach Sunday School to children, and for mothers to teach their sons. Where do we draw the line and say to the women that can no longer teach a male once they reach a certain age? This may seem like a ridiculous scenario, yet there are those in the church who teach along these lines.
Those that are dogmatic in excluding women from the ministries of God usually are not walking in the Spirit, as they see women after the flesh (viewing her sex), not after the Spirit (seeing her heart and calling). The Lord admonishes us in His Word that we are not to look at one another with regard to our sex, race, class or culture, but rather we are to see one another through spiritual eyes.
"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5:16-20).
God wants to use any person who will yield to His Spirit, regardless of that person's sex or capabilities. Those who are a new creature in Christ have His capabilities.
Our problem is that we must see there are rules for the fleshly, or earthly man, and there are rules for the spiritual man. Then, we must discern when to apply the appropriate Scripture. We are admonished in 2 Timothy 2:15 to "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
The Five-Fold Ministry
The Lord gave the church gifts of His choosing in the form of men and women who would lead the church into perfection (Ephesians 4:8-12).
It is the Lord who calls men and women to His ministry. He does not call special people, but the call goes out to "whosoever will." First, we are called to salvation; then as we walk in obedience to Him, He calls for us to be baptized in His Holy Spirit. As we continue to obey and follow Him, He then may choose us to serve Him in a full-time ministry. He chooses people for the ministry out of those who have walked in obedience to His other calls. He desires that all follow, but can only choose those who are obedient. These men and women who have answered the call are set in the ministry by Jesus Himself. Man's ordination does not qualify them, but the ordination of God does. Men will recognize those who are truly called by Him. They will even recognize women who are called of God as God empowers them with His anointing and power which cannot be denied.
God has used many modern day women in His service as well as women spoken of in the Bible. Madame Guyon, Catherine Booth, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Aimee Semple McPherson, Corrie Ten Boom and Kathryn Kuhlman are only a few of the women on the list of great five-fold ministry gifts to the church. What are those gifts and that ministry? "And His gifts were (varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us,) some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers'' (Ephesians 4:11, Amplified Bible.).
When this Scripture says, "appointed and gave men to us," it does not mean just the male sex. The same man whom God created in the beginning which included male and female is the one referred to here. These "men" are both male and female and they have a responsibility to bring others into the maturity that they possess.
Ephesians 4 continues, "His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church), [That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate knowledge of the Son of God; that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood....the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection -- the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ, and the completeness found in Him'' (Ephesians 4:12-13, Amplified Bible.).
The Lord has lofty intentions for His men and women and desires that they come into perfection and maturity even as Christ walked in that perfection. The Lord sends those whom He chooses to bring about this maturing and perfecting. If we have been raised in a traditional church, the idea of coming into perfection may sound impossible--even heretical! However, it is clearly a Biblical precedent and until we understand it we will not be able to understand God's full intention for His body. The separation of laity and clergy is not God's plan for His people. All that are called to salvation are called to a full-time ministry in the Lord. This does not mean that all should leave their secular occupations, but all should devote their lives to the Lord and be as committed and active in witnessing, learning and growing in God as the leadership.
The leadership that God raises up is those men and women whom He trains for His work in the kingdom. Women have been limited in traditional churches to certain positions that men would give them, but the Lord is restoring His full five-fold ministry in these last days to prepare the body of Christ for His return.
Further Questions
If Jesus wanted women to minister, how come all His disciples were men? This question is actually raised from a misunderstanding of the word "disciple." Jesus had many women disciples. These include, Mary and Martha (John 11:1-4, and may other references as well. Mary and Martha, along with their brother Lazarus were among Jesus' closest friends). In addition, Jesus had many other women followers as well.
Luke 8:1-3, "And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance."
For the sake of brevity, I will not include other lists of names of women who followed Him. However the Scripture makes it clear there were many of them.
In another incident, Jesus motions to the crowds that followed him and said, "Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:49-50).
In John 1:1-42, we see that it is a Samaritan woman who leads a large population of her community to Jesus.
Why didn't Jesus choose any women to be among His twelve original apostles? Jesus could not choose women to be among the twelve because it would not be wisdom for men and women to be travelling about together when many of them were single. Also, the twelve apostles fulfilled the "type and shadow" of the twelve patriarchs, so they had to be equal to men (Revelation 21:12, 14). However, this doesn't mean that he does not anoint women to fill an apostolic role today, as we already established in the case of Junia.
Jesus showed a great deal of respect for women--and children as well. In the culture of Jesus' day, these were often deemed "lower class" so to speak, and not worth paying serious attention to. However, Jesus repeatedly broke this unspoken rule. Because His actions were so unusual, those closest to Him were often surprised and annoyed.
Woman, Thou Art Loosed!
We pray that this teaching will encourage many women, who might otherwise relegate themselves to the "back burner" to instead step forward into the full calling of God upon their lives. Likewise, we pray that men who have been taught against letting women minister will see the truth of the fullness of God's plan. No matter who we are in the Lord, we will be held responsible for how we treated others and how we either hindered or helped the cause of Christ on Earth. Those in leadership especially need to heed this warning with reverent fear. Just because we have believed something our whole life, or because our denomination or culture teaches us so, doesn't mean it is correct. If you have a problem with seeing women in the pulpit, or in any position of leadership, we pray that you will prayerfully seek the Lord with an open heart on this issue.
In conclusion, let us read the following promise from the prophet Joel. This prophesy was initially fulfilled at Pentecost, and as we draw closer to the End, we can expect to see it fulfilled in even greater measures.
Acts 2:17-21, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Quote from Chad
Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the following directive? It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so.
1 Corinthians 11:5, "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."
Furthermore, if Paul believed that all women should never teach or speak in church, why does he commend many women who did just that?
With all this in mind, what then do we make of the troubling verses that command women to be silent in the churches? First of all, we must interpret those verses in light of what we have just established--that there were women in leadership positions of the church. Obviously, Paul is not writing to them. He is must be addressing another issue entirely--the women who were loud and unruly during the service, causing disorder and confusion..
When he wrote the Corinthians, he was dealing with a church that was very disorderly in their services. Much of the letter was spent correcting excesses and abuses. Some of these pertained to women in particular and some were to the entire church. Paul is not being prejudiced against women when he instructs the Corinthian women to keep silence. In the early church the seating arrangement was quite different from our modern day churches. Men were seated on one side of the church while the women and children were seated on the opposite side. This is still practiced in many cultures today.
The women of Christ's day were generally uneducated and usually only the men were privileged with an education. Due to this situation, when the church met the women were tempted to shout across the room and ask their husbands the meaning of whatever was being taught. This disturbed the service. Paul was simply saying during the service, "Women, keep your children quiet and you be quiet, and if you have anything to ask your husbands, wait until you get home." Because of the new equality that Christianity brought to women, it could be that some of them were taking their freedom too far, to the point of being obnoxious.
When Paul wrote to Timothy, he gave him a similar directive. Again, it is important to understand the context in which the letter was written. In I Timothy, a careful reader becomes aware that many severe heresies and false teachings that were being dealt with. We can draw a conclusion here that many of the proponents and victims of the false teachings were women. Timothy pastored in Ephesus, and it has been suggested that goddess worship might have played a large part in Paul dealing so severely with the women. Ephesus was a primary center of the worship of Diana or Artemis. The heresies being taught might have suggested that women were authoritative over men and had higher access to spiritual knowledge than men did.
Regardless of the particulars, in both cases we can see that Paul is dealing with specific incidents in specific churches for very particular reasons.
We must understand that many of Paul's epistles dealt with local problems and his commandments are not meant to be taken as "commandments" across the board for all situations. Rather, we are to seek the Lord for the basic principal that needs to be incorporated in our churches. Because of Old Testament precedents that had already been set, apparently it never occurred to Paul re-establish the case for women in ministry. Why would he need to? The early church took it as a matter of course that Jesus would call and ordain anyone He chose--and that settled it! As a matter of fact, the Bible mentions a prophetess who was in the Temple when Jesus was brought there as a baby. Her name was Anna (Luke 2:25-35), and she was one of two people who recognized Jesus as the Messiah because of her sensitivity to the Holy Spirit.
Paul's writings are sometimes misunderstood today because we do not know all the details that led him to write as he did. We must rely on the Holy Spirit, and the rest of the testimony of Scripture to interpret how we are to apply these things to our everyday lives. Scripture should always be compared with other Scripture and the context taken into consideration. Even in Paul's day, there were those who tried to twist the meaning his words.
"...His (Paul's) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do other Scriptures, to their own destruction" ( 2 Peter 3:16).
It is a fair conclusion that the testimony of the bulk of Scripture, church history and God's anointing upon them, all speak plainly for women being able to fulfill all positions of the five-fold offices of apostle, prophet, pastor, evangelist and teacher.
Ministering Today
It has always been a strange doctrine that will allow women to go to foreign mission fields and teach heathen men, but will not allow the "heathen" men at home to be taught by the same women! It makes absolutely no sense to think that a female who is learned in the Scriptures cannot teach a male who is unlearned. Additionally, it is acceptable for many women to teach Sunday School to children, and for mothers to teach their sons. Where do we draw the line and say to the women that can no longer teach a male once they reach a certain age? This may seem like a ridiculous scenario, yet there are those in the church who teach along these lines.
Those that are dogmatic in excluding women from the ministries of God usually are not walking in the Spirit, as they see women after the flesh (viewing her sex), not after the Spirit (seeing her heart and calling). The Lord admonishes us in His Word that we are not to look at one another with regard to our sex, race, class or culture, but rather we are to see one another through spiritual eyes.
"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5:16-20).
God wants to use any person who will yield to His Spirit, regardless of that person's sex or capabilities. Those who are a new creature in Christ have His capabilities.
Our problem is that we must see there are rules for the fleshly, or earthly man, and there are rules for the spiritual man. Then, we must discern when to apply the appropriate Scripture. We are admonished in 2 Timothy 2:15 to "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
The Five-Fold Ministry
The Lord gave the church gifts of His choosing in the form of men and women who would lead the church into perfection (Ephesians 4:8-12).
It is the Lord who calls men and women to His ministry. He does not call special people, but the call goes out to "whosoever will." First, we are called to salvation; then as we walk in obedience to Him, He calls for us to be baptized in His Holy Spirit. As we continue to obey and follow Him, He then may choose us to serve Him in a full-time ministry. He chooses people for the ministry out of those who have walked in obedience to His other calls. He desires that all follow, but can only choose those who are obedient. These men and women who have answered the call are set in the ministry by Jesus Himself. Man's ordination does not qualify them, but the ordination of God does. Men will recognize those who are truly called by Him. They will even recognize women who are called of God as God empowers them with His anointing and power which cannot be denied.
God has used many modern day women in His service as well as women spoken of in the Bible. Madame Guyon, Catherine Booth, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Aimee Semple McPherson, Corrie Ten Boom and Kathryn Kuhlman are only a few of the women on the list of great five-fold ministry gifts to the church. What are those gifts and that ministry? "And His gifts were (varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us,) some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers'' (Ephesians 4:11, Amplified Bible.).
When this Scripture says, "appointed and gave men to us," it does not mean just the male sex. The same man whom God created in the beginning which included male and female is the one referred to here. These "men" are both male and female and they have a responsibility to bring others into the maturity that they possess.
Ephesians 4 continues, "His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church), [That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the full and accurate knowledge of the Son of God; that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood....the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection -- the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ, and the completeness found in Him'' (Ephesians 4:12-13, Amplified Bible.).
The Lord has lofty intentions for His men and women and desires that they come into perfection and maturity even as Christ walked in that perfection. The Lord sends those whom He chooses to bring about this maturing and perfecting. If we have been raised in a traditional church, the idea of coming into perfection may sound impossible--even heretical! However, it is clearly a Biblical precedent and until we understand it we will not be able to understand God's full intention for His body. The separation of laity and clergy is not God's plan for His people. All that are called to salvation are called to a full-time ministry in the Lord. This does not mean that all should leave their secular occupations, but all should devote their lives to the Lord and be as committed and active in witnessing, learning and growing in God as the leadership.
The leadership that God raises up is those men and women whom He trains for His work in the kingdom. Women have been limited in traditional churches to certain positions that men would give them, but the Lord is restoring His full five-fold ministry in these last days to prepare the body of Christ for His return.
Further Questions
If Jesus wanted women to minister, how come all His disciples were men? This question is actually raised from a misunderstanding of the word "disciple." Jesus had many women disciples. These include, Mary and Martha (John 11:1-4, and may other references as well. Mary and Martha, along with their brother Lazarus were among Jesus' closest friends). In addition, Jesus had many other women followers as well.
Luke 8:1-3, "And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance."
For the sake of brevity, I will not include other lists of names of women who followed Him. However the Scripture makes it clear there were many of them.
In another incident, Jesus motions to the crowds that followed him and said, "Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:49-50).
In John 1:1-42, we see that it is a Samaritan woman who leads a large population of her community to Jesus.
Why didn't Jesus choose any women to be among His twelve original apostles? Jesus could not choose women to be among the twelve because it would not be wisdom for men and women to be travelling about together when many of them were single. Also, the twelve apostles fulfilled the "type and shadow" of the twelve patriarchs, so they had to be equal to men (Revelation 21:12, 14). However, this doesn't mean that he does not anoint women to fill an apostolic role today, as we already established in the case of Junia.
Jesus showed a great deal of respect for women--and children as well. In the culture of Jesus' day, these were often deemed "lower class" so to speak, and not worth paying serious attention to. However, Jesus repeatedly broke this unspoken rule. Because His actions were so unusual, those closest to Him were often surprised and annoyed.
Woman, Thou Art Loosed!
We pray that this teaching will encourage many women, who might otherwise relegate themselves to the "back burner" to instead step forward into the full calling of God upon their lives. Likewise, we pray that men who have been taught against letting women minister will see the truth of the fullness of God's plan. No matter who we are in the Lord, we will be held responsible for how we treated others and how we either hindered or helped the cause of Christ on Earth. Those in leadership especially need to heed this warning with reverent fear. Just because we have believed something our whole life, or because our denomination or culture teaches us so, doesn't mean it is correct. If you have a problem with seeing women in the pulpit, or in any position of leadership, we pray that you will prayerfully seek the Lord with an open heart on this issue.
In conclusion, let us read the following promise from the prophet Joel. This prophesy was initially fulfilled at Pentecost, and as we draw closer to the End, we can expect to see it fulfilled in even greater measures.
Acts 2:17-21, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
SpiritLedEd
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I don't think Paul had a clue that his writings on this subject would be studied two thousand years after he authored them. Many people believe that Paul thought that Christ's return would come during his lifetime. They base that belief on 1 Thess 4:16-17 which says: "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds and meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." His use of words that translate into "we" indicate that he expected to be among the living being caught up at that time.
Wouldn't it follow, then, that he was only addressing the situation in the first century church at Corinth when he wrote 1 Corinthians, that he was not thinking about any other churches at any later time? Keep in mind the testimony in 1 Cor 11 to the effect that the Corinthian church's gatherings had begun to resemble activities of the pagan culture they'd just been rescued from; wild and wooly drinking sprees. These people were in serious need of correction.
SLE
Wouldn't it follow, then, that he was only addressing the situation in the first century church at Corinth when he wrote 1 Corinthians, that he was not thinking about any other churches at any later time? Keep in mind the testimony in 1 Cor 11 to the effect that the Corinthian church's gatherings had begun to resemble activities of the pagan culture they'd just been rescued from; wild and wooly drinking sprees. These people were in serious need of correction.
SLE
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