Do we have to go to church?

[Chad]

By now some have decided the church is in our hearts, anywhere we go and others have decided it is within the building gathering. We've covered pretty much every angle of this topic by now rather quickly in 4 pages (so far).

I don't want to lock this thread but please consider these facts:

- Scripture is 100% right always
- we are not to judge, assume or mock other's belief
- everyone has their own unique walk with Christ, between them and GOD alone
- to each their own. Let GOD show the believer what he or she must be shown.

We are not to be intrusive on other's beliefs. We are to correct, but humbly and gently out of love, Agape love the way Jesus was gentle with the sinners. We are not to boast about our credentials because it is irrelevant in the end. Why? Ultimately, the Holy Spirit is the One who ultimately reveals truth and understanding to the believer. Not your college, your paper credentials, your bilingual abilities, etc.

To quote a piece of an article from gotquestions.org

Trying to understand the Bible can sometimes be a difficult task, but with God’s help, it is possible. Remember, if you are a believer in Jesus Christ, God's Spirit indwells you (Romans 8:9). The same God who "breathed out" Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16-17), is the same God who indwells you and will open your mind to the truth and understanding of His Word if you rely on Him. This is not to say that God will always make it easy. God desires us to search His Word and to fully explore its treasures. Understanding the Bible is not always easy, but it is always imminently rewarding.

 

[Atonement]

Please forgive my ignorance and my lack religious protocol, I have been outside the religious institutional system for several years. Seems I forgot that being a pastor puts one above question, oh and just FYI I wasn't acting LOL.

jiggyfly, again sorry for my harsh words but was your questioned answered? If you don't like or accept the Greek answer I have, please by all means I am open to hear your view or underdstand your Greek? By telling me I need to study Greek, I assume you know Greek?

I would be happy to speak and have a conversation with you in Greek?

I don't mind you questioning me, that's cool, but you assumed I have little or no knowledge on Greek.

God Bless you in your continual studies

 

[Atonement]

Dear Brother,

What I really meant to say is, that it is the first time I seen anyone talking about if we should go to Church or not from the bible. That's all. I was happy with your references.

God bless you.

Thank you Y5ee252_Richie: I'm glad that you understand the point behind my post..

God Bless you

 

[Atonement]

ok atonement, you have been through bible college. what is the only given reason in the bible for what water baptism is?

the church is our hearts and those that have accepted christ.

Do you ask to test me, or are you looking for an answer because you need baptism?

 

[ushalk]

i am asking because it is the simplest truth to find in the word of god and yet the most untaught. these teachings usually come from people that have went to bible college.

 

[Atonement]

By now some have decided the church is in our hearts, anywhere we go and others have decided it is within the building gathering. We've covered pretty much every angle of this topic by now rather quickly in 4 pages (so far).

I don't want to lock this thread but please consider these facts:

- Scripture is 100% right always
- we are not to judge, assume or mock other's belief
- everyone has their own unique walk with Christ, between them and GOD alone
- to each their own. Let GOD show the believer what he or she must be shown.

We are not to be intrusive on other's beliefs. We are to correct, but humbly and gently out of love, Agape love the way Jesus was gentle with the sinners. We are not to boast about our credentials because it is irrelevant in the end. Why? Ultimately, the Holy Spirit is the One who ultimately reveals truth and understanding to the believer. Not your college, your paper credentials, your bilingual abilities, etc.

To quote a piece of an article from gotquestions.org

Chad I understand why you posted this, I apologized for my words of choice in front of everyone on this forum, I'm a man... I know when I'm in the wrong, I will be humble and be man enough to admit that..

However,

Credentials are very important Chad, it took fours years of dedication to complete college, I would not have been offered a position where I am at without these credentials. Examples: If you go to a doctor Chad, do you want someone off the street to treat you or someone that went to school and knows what they are talking about? It's a honest question. How about a pharmacist? Would you ask someone off the street about a medication and how to take it or the right dosage? Or would you choose someone who went to school and knows about allergic and drug interactions? This could mean life or death in some cases. So credentials are very important. And in the end... They mean everything in some cases.

God Bless you my brother
Again I understand why it was written

 

[Atonement]

i am asking because it is the simplest truth to find in the word of god and yet the most untaught. these teachings usually come from people that have went to bible college.

So you ask to question my knowledge, I just want to be straight about that..

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o> Baptism is a ‘work’ and we are not saved by works…we are saved by faith alone.”</o>

<o>I here this all the time so,</o>

First, we must consider what the definition of a “work” is that we are using. If one defines baptism a “work” then we must also label believing a “work”. We must also label repenting a “work”. Believing and repenting are both things we must do as a prerequisite to salvation. They are both things that require human action. Baptism is merely the last part of that equation. James tells us he will show us his faith by what he does.

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself -James 2:17

It must be remembered that although baptism is something we must do (like believing and repenting), baptism is an act of faith, not a “work.” It must also be noted that the one at “work” when we are baptized is God, not us. See Colossians 2:12. Just as we must report to the hospital before a surgeon can operate on us, so too, we must “report to God’ in the waters of baptism, submitting to God and claiming His promise so that our sins will be forgiven. Just as it is the surgeon who is the one who is at work when we are operated on, so too, it is God who is the one who is at work when we undergo baptism.
Baptism is a once-in-a-lifetime event. It is our birth (John 3:3-5). Baptism is not an on going process such as feeding the poor, or clothing the homeless or offering sacrifices as they did under the Old Covenant. Doing good deeds cannot earn us eternal life.
Baptism is a manifestation of faith. It is not Man who is at work in baptism; it is God. Baptism is not a “work of righteousness.” On the contrary, if anything, it should be considered a work of unrighteousness. We are baptized because we are corrupt, unrighteous and spiritually dead in sin. This is why we are buried with HIM into death as explained in Romans chapter 6. It is the dead that are buried, not the living.

But God has always measured faith by our actions, as James 2:17-26 tells us

 

[Hisalone]

I have been away for a few days, and I had not noticed the attention this thread has seen. I have actually been studying a related topic, but have not poked my head in here since.

Thank you all for the encouragement, and it has been an interesting read.

OT...Atonement, I think I must take issue with your tone. I sense a rather haughty and arrogant spirit. Examples?

But I'm going to ask you kindly not to question my knowledge on Greek or the Bible

But you questioned me as if I'm wrong.

Then please study the Word of God on this issue before you question my knowledge and act as if I'm wrong on this matter

Credentials are very important Chad, it took fours years of dedication to complete college, I would not have been offered a position where I am at without these credentials.

Do you see what I was reading. Even after a public apology, you went back into your boasting about your credentials.

Atonement, I am going to be quite blunt with a question here. Are you in that position mentioned because man proclaimed it, or are you in that position because God ordained it? That a degree sanctioned by man was required for you to be given the position indicates the former. Maybe I am reading too much into your words, though and I got it all wrong. My apologies if this sounds rude or judgmental. I am not attacking you. Like I said, I could be reading into this all wrong here. It is 3 in the morning where I am. Chad got it right when he said:

Ultimately, the Holy Spirit is the One who ultimately reveals truth and understanding to the believer. Not your college, your paper credentials, your bilingual abilities, etc.

Now, back on topic.

There still seems to be a miscommunication here. Nobody is saying that one need not personal fellowship with other believers. What we are saying is that it does not need to happen within the confines of a tax exempt property owned by a government incorporated non-profit organization sometimes known as a church.

Atonement, perhaps I am misunderstanding your meaning in the following. First you say:

I'm in full agreement Chad, wheater we assemble in a building, in a home, at a park, at a lake, at a river, or even the mountains. The point is... We as believers need to assemble ourselves to hear the Word of God and be fed spiritually..

Then in a later post you say

I believe that if you are not in a local Bible based Church, you need to search your heart and ask yourself why? Is it because of a certain denominations?

By your mentioning of certain denominations, I would gather through context that your first sentence is talking about local Bible based churches that gather in buildings. You ask those that are not members of such an institution to search their hearts when just hours before you voice your support for the kind of fellowship I am being led into, away from the building, systems, programs, etc. as indicated from my initial post. I am just confused and I really do not know where you stand in all this.

I will confess right now that I used to believe that if people did not go to church, they were lacking a relationship with God through Christ Jesus, and they were robbing Him since they were probably not giving their tithe to the local church. Atonement, I do not think you have these beliefs, but I am just asking for some clarification. I think you were right on the mark when you said:

but I believe there is a spirit of divison/confusion on this topic..

Now a short study. Many use the following from Scripture as proof of instruction that one must attend church services regularly.

Hbr 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

This is a simple misinterpretaion as indicated in the following.

Earlier in the book the writer makes this statement.

Hbr 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Obviously, this cannot mean to attend church as we know it today since they do not gather everyday, but there is something very profound that we are instructed to do. Exhort daily. Why do I emphasize that? Ask yourselves who you surround yourselves with on a daily basis. Are they people who will exhort you in the faith we have, or are they out to fulfill their own worldly lusts and desires, not acknowledging the Son of God. I can only point to myself in conviction as I type this, and if you too are convicted, then praise God. Many in the Church have become unequally yoked with such as these, and they have only been crippled. It's past time to come out from among them and be seperate. Amen.

In Christ

Hisalone

 

[ushalk]

atonement, this is exactly why i asked. you are right baptism is either taught as salvation or it is taught that it is a public display of our faith in christ. however it is neither. the bible states that water baptism is for the remission of sins period. no more and no less.

it is many bible colleges that teach the other concerning baptism. that is why i asked to point out the difference in the holy spirit giving us revelation of the word of god and going to bible college and being taught by men.

 

[jiggyfly]

jiggyfly, again sorry for my harsh words but was your questioned answered? If you don't like or accept the Greek answer I have, please by all means I am open to hear your view or underdstand your Greek? By telling me I need to study Greek, I assume you know Greek?

I would be happy to speak and have a conversation with you in Greek?

I don't mind you questioning me, that's cool, but you assumed I have little or no knowledge on Greek.

God Bless you in your continual studies

Wow, sorry I don't speak any Greek. Which Greek dialect do you speak?


I didn't assume you had little knowledge, but I did assume you hadn't studied bishop and church out because although your definition is an old traditional view it is IMO very wrong.

Episkopos= epi - over+skopos - to peer or to watch thus meaning to watch over as a guard or night watchman.

Ekklesia= ek - from or out + kaleo - to call thus "to call out" or when applied as a noun, the most accurate literal meaning is "the called out one" or plural - congregation of "called out ones" the english word church comes from a different greek word > kyriake meaning lord or ruler's house.

Although traditional teachings imply something very different these are the facts. In the case of episkopos and ekklesia King James I demanded the mis-translations. A very good reference is a book on the history of the KJV bible called "In the beginning" by Alister McGrath.

 

[Atonement]

atonement, this is exactly why i asked. you are right baptism is either taught as salvation or it is taught that it is a public display of our faith in christ. however it is neither. the bible states that water baptism is for the remission of sins period. no more and no less.

it is many bible colleges that teach the other concerning baptism. that is why i asked to point out the difference in the holy spirit giving us revelation of the word of god and going to bible college and being taught by men.

Ushalk, good morning brother, sorry I did not use the word "remission" in my response, would that have made it better? To hear the word remission? I use others words like "Baptism is merely the last part of that equation" of salvation. Acts 2:28 Again sorry I did not respond with an answer or "word" that you liked. But never the less I was not wrong.

 

[Atonement]

Wow, sorry I don't speak any Greek. Which Greek dialect do you speak?


I didn't assume you had little knowledge, but I did assume you hadn't studied bishop and church out because although your definition is an old traditional view it is IMO very wrong.

Episkopos= epi - over+skopos - to peer or to watch thus meaning to watch over as a guard or night watchman.

Ekklesia= ek - from or out + kaleo - to call thus "to call out" or when applied as a noun, the most accurate literal meaning is "the called out one" or plural - congregation of "called out ones" the english word church comes from a different greek word > kyriake meaning lord or ruler's house.

Although traditional teachings imply something very different these are the facts. In the case of episkopos and ekklesia King James I demanded the mis-translations. A very good reference is a book on the history of the KJV bible called "In the beginning" by Alister McGrath.

That's good information to know jiggyfly, I thought you did not speak Greek? So why try and teach it to me now? Either way my friend, my answer on this topic was made, and Scripture was used, and was proven to back up my belief on this touchy topic that so many want to argue.. Have a blessed day my friend

 

[ushalk]

sorry atonement i did not mean that you were wrong.

 

[jiggyfly]

That's good information to know jiggyfly, I thought you did not speak Greek? So why try and teach it to me now? Either way my friend, my answer on this topic was made, and Scripture was used, and was proven to back up my belief on this touchy topic that so many want to argue.. Have a blessed day my friend

I'm sorry I didn't catch it, so which Greek dialect do you speak? Perhaps you speak several of them, please kill my curiosity.

 

[Atonement]

I'm sorry I didn't catch it, so which Greek dialect do you speak? Perhaps you speak several of them, please kill my curiosity.

While taking courses for my doctrine degree I had to study 'Attic Greek' which is the standard form of the language studied in courses. After I got my degree, I went back to school and I focused on 'Koine Greek' Νεοελληνική Κοινή or common Greek.

God Bless

 

[jiggyfly]

While taking courses for my doctrine degree I had to study 'Attic Greek' which is the standard form of the language studied in courses. After I got my degree, I went back to school and I focused on 'Koine Greek' Νεοελληνική Κοινή or common Greek.

God Bless

Well I'm amazed that you speak Koine Greek and yet you agree with the traditional interpretation in KJV, absolutely mind boggling.

 

[Atonement]

Well I'm amazed that you speak Koine Greek and yet you agree with the traditional interpretation in KJV, absolutely mind boggling.

Why? I know many, I repeat many people who can divide the Word in truth who know both Greek and perfer the KJV (try attending a pastoral conference) lol. :thumbs_up

 

[jiggyfly]

Why? I know many, I repeat many people who can divide the Word in truth who know both Greek and perfer the KJV (try attending a pastoral conference) lol. :thumbs_up

I have been there, done that and got the certificate (somewhere packed in a storage box).

I guess you missed the part in my post about Ekklesia and Kyriake

 

[Chad]

Brothers, Atonement and Jiggyfly - please consider using pm for your own discussion. Don't take it personally that I'm asking you of this, but the thread has gone off topic and we've covered just about everything by now anyway.

Keep in mind that if it were not for the Holy Spirit, not one man would be able to understand the Word as GOD intended. So all these credentials, etc can easily be rendered useless in the end with the Holy Spirit.

Thank you

 

[Atonement]

You are right Chad. I'm sorry for going off topic. My opinion has been heard and the truth is in Scripture and each man must seek that truth as one may seem fit.

God Bless you brothers