Discussion on the afterlife.

[Butch5]

Not according to the words of God.

Corinthians 15:35-44​

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King James Version​

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35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”

Yeah, but Paul often talks in concepts. It's still the same body, notice he says "it" is sown. Then he says "it" is raised. It's the same "it". There's a change in it, but it's the same body. As we saw in 2 Cor. 5, he uses metaphors. He used clothed and unclothed as metaphors for being in a mortal and immortal state. I think we need to look a little more deeply into Paul's writing to get his real meaming

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

It's still the same body, notice he says "it" is sown. Then he says "it" is raised. It's the same "it". There's a change in it, but it's the same body. As we saw in 2 Cor. 5, he uses metaphors. He used clothed and unclothed as metaphors for being in a mortal and immortal state. I think we need to look a little more deeply into Paul's writing to get his real meaming

No, it’s not the same corrupt flesh and blood body you have now.

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[Butch5]

No, it’s not the same corrupt flesh and blood body you have now.

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

It has to be the same body. That's what resurrection means. A different body would be reincarnation, not resurrection. But, as I pointed out, Paul speaks in concepts. In this passage he says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. But then he explains what he means, corruption doesn't inherit incoruption. He's talking about those two states of being again, mortality and immortality, corruption and incoruption. Our flesh and blood, in this mortal, corruptible state cannot inherit the kingdom. However, when we have those qualities of the spirit, spiritual, immortality, incorruption, we can inherit the Kimgdom.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

It has to be the same body.

No it does not. Again, you are trying explain away what is plainly written.

Corinthians 15:35-44​

King James Version​

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Notice below the body that dies IS NOT THE SAME BODY THAT SHALL BE RAISED!

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, ( can it be any clearer than that?) but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: ( not the same body)
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.( again, not the same body) There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”


Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.( natural body is not the same as a spiritual body)

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.( no flesh and blood bodies will inherit the kingdom)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, ( look, even those who are alive in the natural body shall be CHANGED!)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ( If the living are to keep the same flesh and blood body then that would not be a change would it?)

This is not hard to grasp for those who have an open mind.

 

[Butch5]

No it does not. Again, you are trying explain away what is plainly written.

Corinthians 15:35-44​

King James Version​

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Notice below the body that dies IS NOT THE SAME BODY THAT SHALL BE RAISED!

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, ( can it be any clearer than that?) but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: ( not the same body)
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.( again, not the same body) There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”


Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.( natural body is not the same as a spiritual body)

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.( no flesh and blood bodies will inherit the kingdom)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, ( look, even those who are alive in the natural body shall be CHANGED!)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ( If the living are to keep the same flesh and blood body then that would not be a change would it?)

This is not hard to grasp for those who have an open mind.

I have an open mind. As I said, the Greek word means to stand again. If it's a different body than this one it isn't standing again. A different body is reincarnation. Even in the passage you quoted Paul says "it" was sown, "it", it is raised. "It" was changed. The language he uses doesn't allow for two different bodies. Two different bodies is counter to the rest of Scripture. Jesus was resurrected in the same body. It had the nail holes and the hole in His side.

Many think it's a different body. That's why I suggested we look more deeply at what Paul writes. I don't think we can make a cursory reading a get a full understanding. Take Peter, Jesus personally explained the Scriptures to him and yet he said some things Paul writes are hard to understand. It seems to me that if someone who was personally instructed by Jesus had a hard time understanding Paul, maybe we should pause and take thought of our understanding.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

I have an open mind. As I said, the Greek word means to stand again. If it's a different body than this one it isn't standing again. A different body is reincarnation. Even in the passage you quoted Paul says "it" was sown, "it", it is raised. "It" was changed. The language he uses doesn't allow for two different bodies. Two different bodies is counter to the rest of Scripture. Jesus was resurrected in the same body. It had the nail holes and the hole in His side.

Many think it's a different body. That's why I suggested we look more deeply at what Paul writes. I don't think we can make a cursory reading a get a full understanding. Take Peter, Jesus personally explained the Scriptures to him and yet he said some things Paul writes are hard to understand. It seems to me that if someone who was personally instructed by Jesus had a hard time understanding Paul, maybe we should pause and take thought of our understanding.

The words of God are clear, it is a different glorified spiritual body as written; but you are unable to accept the words of God as the Truth. Just as you will not accept that man has both a body and a soul as Jesus said.

You think just like the worldly men of science and medicine think, which is by worldly wisdom being carnally minded. They don’t believe man has an eternal soul either, just a physical body. As it is written, they only know what they know naturally, and in those things they corrupt themselves.

It is the same with those who do not understand what Paul is saying.

2 Peter 3:15-16​

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;​

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

 

[Brother Paul]

Yeah, but Paul often talks in concepts. It's still the same body, notice he says "it" is sown. Then he says "it" is raised. It's the same "it". There's a change in it, but it's the same body. As we saw in 2 Cor. 5, he uses metaphors. He used clothed and unclothed as metaphors for being in a mortal and immortal state. I think we need to look a little more deeply into Paul's writing to get his real meaming

So then the "it" which has been blown to bits in the Twin Towers or by the Atom Bomb in Japan or that have been eaten by sharks (probably other creatures as well) is gathered? Or does God even require the same specific molecules or even elements? What does this mean to people who have been incinerated in a blaze? What is your $.02?

 

[Butch5]

So then the "it" which has been blown to bits in the Twin Towers or by the Atom Bomb in Japan or that have been eaten by sharks (probably other creatures as well) is gathered? Or does God even require the same specific molecules or even elements? What does this mean to people who have been incinerated in a blaze? What is your $.02?

I don't believe Scripture gets that detailed. I've also wondered what particular cells is it. We lose cells all through our lives. Which ones are the "real" us? All we have to go on is what we find in Scripture. The two most descriptive passages are Gen 2:7 and Ezekiel 37.

 

[Brother Paul]

I don't believe Scripture gets that detailed. I've also wondered what particular cells is it. We lose cells all through our lives. Which ones are the "real" us? All we have to go on is what we find in Scripture. The two most descriptive passages are Gen 2:7 and Ezekiel 37.

Yes. Good point. I believe, like in the Bereshith, God does not need ANY of the original matter. He can draw all He needs physical or not

 

[Butch5]

The words of God are clear, it is a different glorified spiritual body as written; but you are unable to accept the words of God as the Truth. Just as you will not accept that man has both a body and a soul as Jesus said.

You think just like the worldly men of science and medicine think, which is by worldly wisdom being carnally minded. They don’t believe man has an eternal soul either, just a physical body. As it is written, they only know what they know naturally, and in those things they corrupt themselves.

It is the same with those who do not understand what Paul is saying.

2 Peter 3:15-16​

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;​

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

Let me throw something out to consider. We read a "translation" of Scripture. As such we are reading someone else's interpretation. What you and I are reading is what someone else "thinks" the Scriptures mean. You said I'm unable to accept the word of God. But, again, what you're posting is what someone else thinks the Greek and Hebrew texts mean. How do you or I know if that person or people is/are correct? Do you know anything about the beliefs and education of those who translated the version you use?

This is what I throw out for consideration. Often people will say, the Scriptures say this or that. They'll say this is the word of God, etc. But, this gives us a false sense of authority. People think, "I must be right because this is what God's word says". However, I don't think we consider often enough whether or not we are understanding correctly. If we misunderstand a passage and make a claim claiming it's what the Bible says, it very well may not be. We just assume that when we read a passage our understanding is correct. Maybe it's not. However, since we're using the Bible we believe we have this authority. But again, if we're misunderstanding the passage, it's not God's word.

If you can make a case showing from Scripture, properly exegeted that there are two different bodies for people, then you have a basis for your claim. But, one or two passages that you could be misunderstanding doesn't prove that what you're claiming is correct.

In 2 Cor 5 we looked at what Paul said. He said he didn't want to leave the body, but rather that his mortality would be swallowed up by immortality. His words there run counter to what you're saying He means here. How can he believe two things that are totally opposite and teach them to the same people?

 

[Curtis]

2Co 5:1 FOR WE know that if the tent which is our earthly home is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 Here indeed, in this [present abode, body], we sigh and groan inwardly, because we yearn to be clothed over [we yearn to put on our celestial body like a garment, to be fitted out] with our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3 So that by putting it on we may not be found naked (without a body).
2Co 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan under the burden and sigh deeply (weighed down, depressed, oppressed)--not that we want to put off the body (the clothing of the spirit), but rather that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal (our dying body) may be swallowed up by life [after the resurrection]. (AMP)

 

[Butch5]

2Co 5:1 FOR WE know that if the tent which is our earthly home is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 Here indeed, in this [present abode, body], we sigh and groan inwardly, because we yearn to be clothed over [we yearn to put on our celestial body like a garment, to be fitted out] with our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3 So that by putting it on we may not be found naked (without a body).
2Co 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan under the burden and sigh deeply (weighed down, depressed, oppressed)--not that we want to put off the body (the clothing of the spirit), but rather that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal (our dying body) may be swallowed up by life [after the resurrection]. (AMP)

I covered this here.

 

[walter45]

Starting with Genesis 3:19 "until you return to the ground, since you were taken from it. For you are dust, and you will return to dust.”

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
New King James Version

Brenton Septuagint Translation The Septuagint Lxx Bible is the scriptures in Greek which dates before the first century.
Psalms 37:29 "But the righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it for ever".
Psalms 37:11 "But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."

John 12:48
The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day. New American Standard Bible

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. King James Bible

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Luke12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. King James Bible

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
King James Bible

Jesus also says: And so, dear brothers and sisters who belong to God and are partners with those called to heaven, think carefully about this Jesus whom we declare to be God’s messenger and High Priest. Hebrews 3:1 New living Translation

Lu 22:28-30
28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. NIV

Rev 20:5-6
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years. New American Bible

Summary for those who sleep: "those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" "the righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it for ever" "will judge him on the last day"

Summary for the little flock who goes to Heaven: "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom"
"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" "so, dear brothers and sisters who belong to God and are partners with those called to heaven" "And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." "Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over these; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for [the] thousand years."

Scripture "context" alone for our understanding.