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Difficult TOPIC (Reader discretion advised)

Hello brothers and sister in Christ,

I wanted to discuss a topic but first wanted to state that it is a sensitive topic. It is a sensitive
topic that stirs up strong emotions. Often times such sensitive topics forces people to not
hear anyone who does not echo what they believe. Hopefully in the body of Christ we can
allow different views to be shared and reflect to see if this is congruent with the WORD of God.

I believe that nothing I will share is not based in the Bible. I'm sure and welcome correction if I am wrong.
I welcome correction because I'm not perfect and I hope you're open to listening because you're not perfect

So, the Orlando Shooting. First my condolences to all those mourning the deaths. Obviously this is a tragic situation on many levels. I'm speaking of the 50 possibly more people that were killed in a homosexual night club. Many lives have been lost, some who may have being seeking the LORD and others who may not have been (I don't know).

When human life is lost it is always tragic to those close to the victim and others who may not have known the victims
because we are made in God's image.

When such tragedy happens some are quick to rush and say this was God's judgement. Others are quick to respond
and tell those individuals to be quiet because they are wrong.

So my question is, is it possible for such a situation to be a result of God's judgement. I think that it could be either. It
could very well have been God's judgement and it could have not been the judgement of God. I don't know so I won't say(I'm not a prophet, I don't speak for God, others have been appointed as such). I will say that to totally discredit the idea that it is remotely possible that this could be a part of God's judgment would be wrong. Put another way, it could possibly have been an example of the judgement of God (I'm not saying it was, but it could have been).

Before you get mad and tune me out, listen please. First we must ask what it means to speak of God's judgment or even God having a role in the situation.

Many quickly think this means that God told the shooter, I want you to go and shoot up this club because I'm mad at them, that is not what I speak of. As we read the old testament, we see that many many many times God's judgment came upon the land of Israel because of their wickedness. But it wasn't in the sense of God sending their enemies to kill them. Their enemies had long wanted to destroy them, but God had been protecting them. God in his judgment allowed His hedge of protection to come down, and allowed the free will of those who wanted to do them harm to happen. It was not God's doing, because God will still judge the nations who attacked Israel, but God was involved because He choose to allow it to happen in His anger over what His people were doing.

If you think that anything in this world can happen, without God allowing it, then I believe respectfully that you are deceived. I believe that nothing can happen without God allowing it. Now because God allows it, it does not necessarily mean that He sanctions it. God's hands had been involved in the death of many. Even His Son Jesus. John 3:16 tells us that for God so loved the world that he sent.... God sent Jesus, knowing what would happen. God allowed Jesus to die, not because He was angry at Jesus but because His anger against us needed to be released and on the cross Jesus paid the price. Someone not understanding this would look at the story of John 3:16 and say that God killed Jesus. Well no, the Jews or Romans soldiers killed Jesus and God will judge them accordingly. Was God involved? Well yes, he permitted it. Sometimes we don't understand how glory can come out of evil but God works all things to the good of us who love Him and for His glory. So sometimes when tragedy happens it is the judgment of God as with the children of Israel, Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah's days, or the death of Jesus on the cross, other times as with the death of Peter or Stephen it is not a matter of God's judgment.

Not speaking about the Orlando situation but on the homosexual topic a news article posted a comment from a citizen speaking about church and the person said "I think it's very sad that people that claim to be Christians are hate-mongers. And why can't people mind their own business and let people live their life the way they want to live it? They're not hurting anyone," Talking about sin is not hate-mongering. Why couldn't the prophet Jeremiah mind his business and let the people live? Why couldn't Jonah mind His business and let the people of Ninevah live, they weren't harming anyone(were they?)? Why couldn't Paul, Peter, Stephen, Noah, and Jesus let the people live instead of preaching about sin? This is because they were actually doing what they did out of love not hate and because God told them to. I agree sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it. It's one things to share the love of God and tell how Jesus loves you(good), and another to say all gays are burning in hell(bad way). So the delivery is important, but just sharing the message is not hate.

I won't speak either way about this Orlando situation and say it was or was not God's judgment.
Though I am part of the body of Christ and share His WORD(Bible) to many, I don't speak for God(I'm not His mouth piece((prophet)) and I don't know, you might. But I will say that scripture supports the fact that it could be either.
Like you... I will not presume to speak for God.

Yet... when things like this happen... so many are quick to dismiss it... it's just random thing.
Or it's just extremism, or it's just ISIS... in this case... it turns out the gun man was probably gay
himself... so it may not have had anything to do with religion at all.

Do we believe God still executes judgment on the world today? If not... then why is there any reason
not to sin? Yes, we need to pray for those affected by this. God can definitely use this circumstance
to change lives, change opinions, and change priorities..

So even if... on the off chance this particular incident wasn't God's plan. (did it catch Him by surprise?)
Are there other similar things that happen to those who flaunt sin in God's face? When bad things happen
to people who not only live in sin... but take pride in it... should we say this definitely isn't from God?

In the meantime... we can pray for the friends and families of those affected by this.
Well said. Amen.

That is a good point about God using this for good.
This is a good time for the church in Orlando, to wrap its arms around the
gay community and minister to them.

I don't mean minister to them by flying the gay flag, but just loving them. Sending
them cards and even if it isn't initially to share the concrete gospel. Just serving
others can be used as a door to later share the gospel.

Remember Jesus and the woman at the well. It just started with a drink of water and from
there He saved.
I do believe there is ample New Testament scriptural support for God's lovingkindness and His righteous judgements. Ultimate judgement and judgement in the here and now. The here and now judgements are of course tricky but one thing is for sure, God is Sovereign and nothing happens without His permission.

We are quick to give God the glory and thanks for the good things, His lovingkindnesses (every good and perfect gift comes from above) but we are understandably hesitant to give God the glory and thanks for His judgements even if somehow we knew for sure that He was exercising a specific judgement.

Are we to give God the glory and thanks for His judgements, if we knew for sure that a specific thing was being specifically judged by God, not just allowed to happen? Is there a New Testament example for this?
Although I sometimes teach "fire and brimstone". I rarely give much thought to current events
in the news.

In the last 2 weeks... I have noticed several military accidents. At least 4 jet crashes.
I have noticed that China no longer fears the US in the China sea.
I have noticed that Russia no longer fears the US in Europe.
Of course there is the Orlando tragedy.
Then there is the Disney crocodile incident.

It's possible all of these are random events that don't have anything to do with anything.
But it's also possible God is making a statement here. To me at least... it seems very unlikely
that all of these things are just random things.
The world believes it is just random happenings; the same world believes in "good luck" and "bad luck".

We, believers in God, BELIEVE God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Look at David...ordained of God to kill "many" people and a giant. He kill so many his father in law became jealous and sought to take his life.

The goodness of God brings a soul to repentance, crying out Abba Father. When one is crying out in repentance it is not so wonderful in their life.

How many cried out to God and seek understanding now?

God raises vessels unto honor and unto dishonor. Even the devil has a job to do.

All praise glory and honor be unto God Amen.
The Lord God is "sovereign", and nothing happens without his permission. The Lord has determined based upon his "sovereignty" to allow men to do what ever he wants, and he will suffer the consequences of his actions whether it be good or bad. Unfortunately sometimes good people get trapped between these bad events.

Luke 13:1 About this time Jesus was informed that Pilate had murdered some people from Galilee as they were offering sacrifices at the Temple.
Luke 13:2 "Do you think those Galileans were worse sinners than all the other people from Galilee?" Jesus asked. "Is that why they suffered?
Luke 13:3 Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God.
Luke 13:4 And what about the eighteen people who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5 No, and I tell you again that unless you repent, you will perish, too." (NLT)

Now, the question should be does God protect those who belong to him? I would say yes, but if we do not listen to his warning, we too will fall victim to the same evil as others do.
Jesus was warned of those who wanted to kill him when he sent his disciples ahead of himself to a festival, and then he also went up by himself, probably knowing his attackers would be suspecting Jesus to be with his disciples. The very first sermon Jesus ever gave in the temple, the entire congregation wanted to kill him by throwing off a cliff in which the city was built. Jesus simply walked through the "mist" of them. Joseph being warned to take May and leave because of a decree that Herod was about to announce. The Lord God promises to guide us by his eye, and we can bet our lives on the fact the Lord knows all the evil that could, and would come against us before it ever happens.

Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

Never ever promise any body or give your word that you will be some where, or do something in the future as the Bible tells us that is "boasting"
and all such talk is "evil." (James 4:13-16) We do not know what tomorrow may bring, we don't even know whats going to happen 10 minutes from now. The right thing to say is "if the Lord wills, I will do such, and such.

I am fully convinced that many a child of God has met a untimely death because of failing to heed the Lords warning because we might have promised somebody something, and instead of heeding God's warning we decided to keep our word to a person that we should have never done.
Staff Member
As I was reading this right away these two passages came to mind. This is not directed towards the OP, but wanted to share. Let's stay focused on being witnesses, "salt and light", spreading the Gospels.

“Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew‬ ‭22:37-40‬ ‭

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Matthew‬ ‭7:1-2‬ ‭

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