Devil rebelion

[Thiscrosshurts]

The nature of love renders it impossible for there to be any predestined salvation. God desires that we love Him. Love cannot be forced, invented, predetermined, predestined.

I can't disagree with your line of reasoning if your definition of predestined salvation is strictly Calvinistic.
However I can't simply ignore scripture that insures God's absolute sovereignty over his creation or the fact that in him we live and move and have our being so this whole deal is taking place inside God.There can be no dispute that he can soften or harden a heart.
I don't really follow any set theology because every time I see scripture that consistently contradicts what I believe I have to put that belief on the back burner until I can see a way to resolve the conflict.

There are several alternative ways to approach the whole subject.
Such as-when would freewill begin?
If we chose who we would be before we were born and had full knowledge of all possible outcomes then we would actually have freewill and God would be sovereign because he could call those who chose to be reminded and choose those who chose to be chosen.
In other words Esau chose to play the part of the one God hated and Jacob the part of the one God loved.
That's just one possibility,I can think of several others but each also creates entirely knew conflicts with other beliefs.

Yes, because He first loved me. That is the nature of love. A voluntarily self sacrificing giving of the heart. mind, body, soul to God.

I would like to believe that I render him that out of self but my experience and scripture tells me that it is him in me loving him that I'm in.


.

 

[farout]

The nature of love renders it impossible for there to be any predestined salvation. God desires that we love Him. Love cannot be forced, invented, predetermined, predestined. No-one will ever convince me that the love I have for my Saviour came about without my own personal choice to do so. Voluntarily freely and decidedly given why? Yes, because He first loved me. That is the nature of love. A voluntarily self sacrificing giving of the heart. mind, body, soul to God.
It is claimed by hard-core Calvinists that because God planned that His creation would love Him, that necessarily means a lack of choice. Not so. God can still be sovereign despite the unwillingness for most of His created beings on this planet rejecting Him. This does not mean a failure on God's part, in fact, quite the opposite. It is a total victory on His part because He, in granting us the freedom to choose whether to love Him or not, is to His glory in that He was willing to take the risk of rejection. There is no glory in enforcing any response just to please Himself. His granting of freedom is an expression of His love. We do the same. We do not force our wives, husbands, to love us, we woo them and give them the freedom to respond voluntarily. The alternative is rape. God does not spiritualy rape mankind and force them into servitude. Nor does He enforce rejection. Simply said, it isn't love.

I am not a five point Calvinists, nor a Arminists, I am a misture of both. I would call myself a Calvinarmist. I do see how we are called and God has preordained His will for us. I see that God's direction will be done. I believe in election, and free will of each person. Each one of us has the will to reject the will of God, or surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. However God knows all, see's all and knows the past, the present and future. In Gods plan if we as persons do not follow His plan, someone else will do what he wills. God knows in advance what we will do before it happens. There is a mixture of His will and our free will that we will do as we want, but He knows in advance what we will do. Gods plan will be done and if we do not do what His will is for us, than there is someone else who will do Gods plan as part as Gods free will for us. It is a little hard to fully understand, yet alone explane. So is Gods knowing the future and having His plan that will be done, and our free will to obey or reject Gods will for us, is this predestination ? The answer is in Deuteronomy 29:29. My thought's are we can no more explane the Trinity, and or predestination, and or the free will of mankind.

The Bible says " we walk by faith, and " without faith we can not please God". I can not fully understand God and His Loving us so much that He sent His only Son that who soever surrenders their will to Jesus Christ and becomes a follower of Jesus Christ, will be Saved and Born Again. This statement alone is hard to fully assimilate and comprehend.
in my Spirt. I sincerely hope I have helped you understand, rather that just stir up and muddy the waters of understanding. Blessings to those who follow my thoughts.


farout

 

[Sargento]

LOVE...

Sargento I don't know how... your reasoning is so twisted...

I was hopping that you could show me my errors... not just give a personal opinion.



FAROUT...
Helo...

Well, my thinking is there... for me to rethink it you have to point me some mistake.
I showed that the Devil is wicked from the beginning... and that GOD does creates evil, just like he creates the wicked WITH A PURPOSE.

If this is written, and nowhere the opposite is what will I listen to?? The scriptures or men's traditions?

What is out of context? Or where have I miss interpreted?

Point me my mistake and I will rethink all.

Sergento: I have one more thought. The angels have free will too. YAHWEH has created us and angel's with free will also. Would that not explan satan as well?

Show me that angels or anyone have free-will and I'll listen.


Thiscrosshurts...

Just because the Bible tells you to make a choice that does not mean you have the power to choose right.

Didn't the law ordered the people to obey it under the menace of being cursed? And how many obeyed it?
Many years later Paul says that ALL stayed under the curse of the law... so none obeyed it.

Why? Free will?
What was the gold of the Law????
Wasn't to show us that WE COULD NOT OBEYED IT?

So, GOD gives an order (the law's commandments) that we did not have the power to obey.

Although I'm answering to each of you separately I don't mind you to ask or answer about a post of mine to anyone else because what I post is for everyone.

 

[Sargento]

The nature of love renders it impossible for there to be any predestined salvation. God desires that we love Him. Love cannot be forced, invented, predetermined, predestined. No-one will ever convince me that the love I have for my Saviour came about without my own personal choice to do so. Voluntarily freely and decidedly given why? Yes, because He first loved me. That is the nature of love. A voluntarily self sacrificing giving of the heart. mind, body, soul to God.
It is claimed by hard-core Calvinists that because God planned that His creation would love Him, that necessarily means a lack of choice. Not so. God can still be sovereign despite the unwillingness for most of His created beings on this planet rejecting Him. This does not mean a failure on God's part, in fact, quite the opposite. It is a total victory on His part because He, in granting us the freedom to choose whether to love Him or not, is to His glory in that He was willing to take the risk of rejection. There is no glory in enforcing any response just to please Himself. His granting of freedom is an expression of His love. We do the same. We do not force our wives, husbands, to love us, we woo them and give them the freedom to respond voluntarily. The alternative is rape. God does not spiritualy rape mankind and force them into servitude. Nor does He enforce rejection. Simply said, it isn't love.

Brakelite...

If love cannot be invented (and this is right concerning to man's will) why do you say you CHOOSE to love? If you do not love can you invent love for your self just because you decide?

Or do you decide BECAUSE you love? What comes first?

Any love that is fruit of your decision is false... the true love (like any other felling) is the one that is INVOLUNTARILY. That is not provoked, better yet, simulated, by you.
I f there is something that comes closer to appear free is ACTIONS, not feelings.... but even actions are not free although they might appear that way... but for now you're talking about love.

If a son of yours tell you that he love's you more than anyone, and you with a smile ask him why, and he tell's you that's because he decided what will you think??? Will you even listen to it??

You do have a will, but it is not free nor it could be.

I'm waiting for the answers of ALL of you.

 

[B-A-C]

Any love that is fruit of your decision is false... the true love (like any other felling) is the one that is INVOLUNTARILY.

Hmmm... Are you married? Have you ever been married?
Love is a feeling, yes. But it is also a choice, a commitment. Even Jesus' love for us.
Jesus didn't have to die for us.

John 10:17; "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
John 10:18; "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

When the Pharisees came to seize Jesus, he said...
Mat 26:53; "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Matt 26:39; And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
Jesus choose to do the father's will instead of his own.

Matt 26:54; "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

I've always found it interesting that the armed mob that came to get Jesus in the garden were either afraid of him, or else there was simply so much power in his declaration below...
John 18:6; So when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground.

Why do you suppose they fell to the ground?

 

[farout]

LOVE...



I was hopping that you could show me my errors... not just give a personal opinion.



FAROUT...
Helo...

Well, my thinking is there... for me to rethink it you have to point me some mistake.
I showed that the Devil is wicked from the beginning... and that GOD does creates evil, just like he creates the wicked WITH A PURPOSE.

If this is written, and nowhere the opposite is what will I listen to?? The scriptures or men's traditions?

What is out of context? Or where have I miss interpreted?

Point me my mistake and I will rethink all.



Show me that angels or anyone have free-will and I'll listen.


Thiscrosshurts...

Just because the Bible tells you to make a choice that does not mean you have the power to choose right.

Didn't the law ordered the people to obey it under the menace of being cursed? And how many obeyed it?
Many years later Paul says that ALL stayed under the curse of the law... so none obeyed it.

Why? Free will?
What was the gold of the Law????
Wasn't to show us that WE COULD NOT OBEYED IT?

So, GOD gives an order (the law's commandments) that we did not have the power to obey.

Although I'm answering to each of you separately I don't mind you to ask or answer about a post of mine to anyone else because what I post is for everyone.

Sargento: How have you come to the conclusion about God making evil? I have not found a single author that agrees with your theology on the devil, or God creating evil.

Evil was the result of mans choice to sin, not God telling us to do evil. Where in the first four chapters of Genesis can I find a scripture to support your ideas ? I do appreciate that you are taking the time to respond to questions about your theories, as many post a idea and just drop off, leaving no way to dialogue. I do respect your views, and you seem to be the same back, thanks.

 

[Sargento]

B-A-C...

So you choose what you feel ... well, in that case you have no excuse to sin... you should be perfect without any kind of flaws....

Unless every time you sin you choose NOT to love Jesus... is that why you sin??? Because you choose to sin against Jesus??

And when you sin you do it because you wish to sin... even the temptation you feel towards is then your choice to have because unlike every existing creature you control your feelings.

My friend your judgement will by much severe than all others...
...everyone else will be judged taking into account that their falls were not intentional (unless they think like this too), but you'll judged be by what you choose because you can control yourself and when you sin you are not falling, you are CHOOSING to sin...
...so if every day you choose to sin and then repent that repent can only be planed (which makes the sin also planed) which is NOT a SINCERE repent and NOT the work of a reborn heart.

Because you also must control repentance don't you?
Every son of GOD is STROKE by repentance the minute he realizes he have sinned because his heart LOVES GOD, but you probably make your own repentance... I'm I wrong?




I really hope no one else thinks this way.

 

[Sargento]

Hi Farout...

As long as I see that someone is being sincere in their questions I will always answer... if I take some time is because I didn't have the time, especially at weekends.

It does not takes much conclusion Farout... GOD says it self, you surely now the most common verse don't you?
What people do with it is searching for similar words that might fit so the original message become changed. But the Bible are not random verses, they carry a message, and when that message is disturbed its noticeable by who owns the spirit of GOD which guides him through the all truth .

So something that should be obvious becomes like it ins't there...
However this should be reason enough...

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {things}."
Is 45:7

Sadly, its not... but if this is not, how to be more explicit than this? How to answer to someone that having this in his face asks for scriptures that support it?

GOD creates everything, nothing exists that is out of his will ... if HE didn't want something to exist HE would simply make it not exist. Or does HE have not the power to do it so?
So why do evil exists? Does it supports it self without GOD?

Tell me Farout, why should this even be questioned? If HE says HE creates evil why should we not believe it?

Evil was a result of Adams sin?
Think Farout... Was the tree out of GOD's control? Was the consequence of sin out of HIS will? Was sin it self not under HIS word?
Isn't killing a sin? Why did Saul sinned by NOT killing then? Who inverted sin that time? Even sin is sin if GOD says so... HE defines what sin is, even sin exists according to HIS will.

Man??? Man just fall into a temptation, he didn't create nothing... but who cursed all? Man or GOD? Who cursed men, women, the serpent, and the World?

If GOD wanted could he not just let Adam eat of the fruit without consequences? Who made those consequences? Who made Adam vulnerable to temptation? Who made the serpent so smart and put it together with man and the forbidden tree that HE also created in the center of the garden?
Before HE build the universe did HE not know that by doing all this way that Adam would fall? Still, HE did it this way... why do you think HE did?

Did HE not know before making that rule that Adam would break it? Couldn't HE have made Adam smart and strong enough to resist the temptation?

Farout, saying that HE did not create Evil is saying that HE failed.... is saying that HE planned something and could not make it work... and now HE's trying to patch it up using a status (perfect) that does not belong to him.

But GOD is perfect... that is why HE created evil.

 

[love_yeshua]

LOVE...

I was hopping that you could show me my errors... not just give a personal opinion.

I already gave my points in previous posts, I'm not into repeating myself.

 

[spirit1st]

Everyone on this planet is born in the flesh as sinners and all die in there flesh as sinners.
Plus everyone sins because no one has prefect truth . We all tell things that we believe is truth and later in life ? We learn we were wrong about some things and then tell the truth of it then .

Salvation , Born -Again , begins a learning process. Which I personally do not believe ever ends as long as we are trapped in the flesh. The flesh mind just has too much junk in it and it gets more daily ?

The New Creatures mind can mature to be like our LORD JESUS in time.

It does start off with His type mind alright, But it takes time to mature.

But I do believe we need to start off Knowing God is pure prefect LOVE or we will never fully understand the scriptures correctly.

So many do and teach God is evil . He NOT. He LOVES everything He ever created . I am sure it hurts Him to have to destroy any of it .

He given all mankind Faith so they can if willing be Born Again. He sees each of us as Sinners. None greater sinner or less sinners.

But some sins bring death quicker and sickness upon our flesh .


Some sins will maybe get us in prison or jail or bring great problems into out lives and maybe others. we have an affect on others and there lives also.

I heard many say things that makes GOD appear evil or uncaring or hateful.
He NOT.

He really does care about each of us . I asked Him before too punish me and hurt me very bad. And all He did was bless me and love me.
That hurt worse than if He had hurt me. But it also Proved too me ? Just how much He loved me and All of mankind.

Joh_11:35 Jesus wept.

Can you believe it ? The Creator of All that was ever Created Wept over mankind. Is GOD not truly pure prefect LOVE?

I know beyond any doubt. HE LOVES me more than my own mother or anyone else on this planet even could.

1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn_4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


GOD wants us to know? That HE is pure LOVE. Other wise we will not understand correctly.

 

[Sargento]

I already gave my points in previous posts, I'm not into repeating myself.

And they're already refuted... but it's ok.

You don't need to talk, no one is making you to ...
...I just said I was HOPPING you could show me my error since I've shown yours and got no answer ... but this reaction of yours just shows me that even though you have no answer and see that what I said makes sense you won't let go of what you were taught... and still, in that prison you claim free-will.
That's what it looks like...

 

[love_yeshua]

And they're already refuted... but it's ok.

You don't need to talk, no one is making you to ...
...I just said I was HOPPING you could show me my error since I've shown yours and got no answer ... but this reaction of yours just shows me that even though you have no answer and see that what I said makes sense you won't let go of what you were taught... and still, in that prison you claim free-will.
That's what it looks like...

You like drama, I don't come to this forum for drama. Bye.

 

[Sargento]

My friend, I don't like drama, but I do wan't the truth to shine.

However you do not have to talk to me ... I'm not making you do nothing ... If someone does not want to talk to me I can't or want to force him/her.

I just post what I know to be the truth, if anyone thinks I'm wrong I expect them to show me why because I do not want to serve death thinking its life ... but, their arguments must be truth and not just "because" ... I can't leave what I believe because someone else doesn't like it ... is that so irrational?
However, if their arguments fail I would be happy if they admit it because that would show they love the truth, but if they don't is their problem not mine ... and if they do not want to talk about it I won't insist... I'm not forcing anyone to talk to me.

If I end up concluding that no one on this forum want's to talk to me I will stop talking here... until that, my hope is to find some here that correct me if I'm wrong or accept to be corrected if I show them their mistakes.

My friend, if you don't want to talk to me, just don't.

 

[Fenn]

My friend, I don't like drama, but I do wan't the truth to shine.

However you do not have to talk to me ... I'm not making you do nothing ... If someone does not want to talk to me I can't or want to force him/her.

I just post what I know to be the truth, if anyone thinks I'm wrong I expect them to show me why because I do not want to serve death thinking its life ... but, their arguments must be truth and not just "because" ... I can't leave what I believe because someone else doesn't like it ... is that so irrational?
However, if their arguments fail I would be happy if they admit it because that would show they love the truth, but if they don't is their problem not mine ... and if they do not want to talk about it I won't insist... I'm not forcing anyone to talk to me.

If I end up concluding that no one on this forum want's to talk to me I will stop talking here... until that, my hope is to find some here that correct me if I'm wrong or accept to be corrected if I show them their mistakes.

My friend, if you don't want to talk to me, just don't.

I noticed you responded to someone regarding the freedom to control their feelings. I believe it would be difficult to say we can control our feelings. I believe at times we can affect our feelings, but that is different. I believe that even though we may not always master our feelings, we can master our actions. Have you ever seen someone conquer their fear of heights? Though they are still afraid, they may climb to the top of the rock. Have you seen someone conquer their fear of death? Though they are still afraid, they may lift someone out of harms way only by putting themselves in? Maybe you agree that we can choose our actions, because that is different than feelings.

I have read over your posts, but I am curious for clarification on your beliefs. Do you believe we have free will? The freedom to choose our individual actions?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Thiscrosshurts...

Just because the Bible tells you to make a choice that does not mean you have the power to choose right.

Yes,excellent point.
That was my only question.

 

[Joanne]

He is what he was made for, thats precisely it! great insight!

 

[Chad]

Just because the Bible tells you to make a choice that does not mean you have the power to choose right.

Didn't the law ordered the people to obey it under the menace of being cursed? And how many obeyed it?
Many years later Paul says that ALL stayed under the curse of the law... so none obeyed it.

Ridiculous and fully disagree. If GOD says do something, then YES you CAN do it! Your contradicting the Bible so much, it's irritates my eyes to read your posts.

You are basically saying GOD is contradicting Himself by telling us to do something we can't. GOD does not contradict, nor does He manipulate.

The Israelites did not obey because of their sins, pride. This does not​ mean they had no power to obey.

 

[Aurafairy]

Ridiculous and fully disagree. If GOD says do something, then YES you CAN do it! Your contradicting the Bible so much, it's irritates my eyes to read your posts.

You are basically saying GOD is contradicting Himself by telling us to do something we can't. GOD does not contradict, nor does He manipulate.

The Israelites did not obey because of their sins, pride. This does not​ mean they had no power to obey.

You're right; God is not a man that he should lie. Numbers 23:19.

After reading your post I thought of Exodus. Exodus 4:21-23, Exodus 9:1, Exodus 9:12

Edit: "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." James 1:13-14

 

[spirit1st]

Chad is correct. I do not agree with anyone, unless I believe it truth.

The Problem as I see it ? Is you see GOD Wrong. and you see us having choice wrong. I know God wanted me to make other choices at times in my life time. Yet He allowed me to mess up .

God only wants the best for mankind always. We are the ones at fault always when we do wrong. IT NEVER GOD fault.
Mankind is living under grace. That means it God mercy and His permissive will. He hates seeing man do evil .
Yet His love so great ,He allowing us to mess up . That our choice. He not going to allow it forever.

WE can Never blame GOD for anything. You decide if your going to live in truth or lies. You decide if your going to hell or new Jerusalem .
You will never be able to say ? You did it God, You forced me to sin and do evil .

Listen , You say you are one of the Elect? What does that mean to you? How is one Born again and what takes place at that moment?

 

[Brighthouse]

What saves men is not there own works bro,but rather believing in all Jesus did. If you believe in all Jesus did,and you follow him,who is to judge you bro?? NOT ME!!