Denominationalism.."the beam that is in thine own eye"

[caprice09]

The problem of having an imperfect knowledge of the matters of God (1 Cor 2:13-16, 8:1-3, 13:9-12) is the arrogance of the flesh in wanting to be right (wise, mature, renowned; "holier than thou"). The bible constantly warns us against becoming conceited in our knowledge of God, thinking to "have attained" unto His level of thinking (or even receiving these revelations by our own merrits rather than by His grace; and thus to be ministered according to the Example by which we obtained it)! And I wonder that the many "divisions," sects and "schism(s)" of the Body of Christ, in direct defiance to the will of Christ (John 17 is His dying prayer, thus the will of God revealed!), is not the fulfillment of the "falling away" before the end comes. Each side has a valid point, but overglorifies that one aspect of ministry to the degree to think that any who conceedes not to this truth is "not of the body." Since this is a direct contradiction to God's acceptance of them through grace ("For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Coupled with, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." or, "Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.") I fear much more for the salvation of one that makes such a claim then the one they made it to ("For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." and "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.")! "What God has cleansed, that call not you common!"

 

[farout]

caprice09: Perhaps I am reading your post wrong, but I can't tie it in with Denomibationalism, "the bram that is in thine own eye."

If you are saying Denomations are wrong, or are right than please elaborite more so others cab post s well.

 

[Boanerges]

Paul fought the first schisms caused by the nature of the natural man to divide the body- we can see the beginnings of division here:

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

 

[caprice09]

Division within the body is wrong

The connection to denominations is the rebuke of others for not seeing their faults, while simultaneously condemning themselves in their own hasty judgment (exactly as was done against Christ in the flesh). Jesus pleaded for peace and unity especially among the body of believers. By no means was He soft spoken against sin and hypocrisy, but always to bring to a point of repentance and understanding. Many who claim to act in His name seem to follow more closely to the example of those that crucified Him through their hasty judgment (Matt 23:29-39), and by the ministry of Christ shall be condemned themselves! (Matt 7:1-2).

 

[farout]

caprice09: There is no one, who is a genuine Christian living on this earth, who has achived sinless perfection. That does not happen until after we die. Keeping that in mind, any organization that Christians form with the best Christian intentions are sure to make mistakes and errors and perhaps sin might spot up once in a great while.
Christian denominations are not exempt from making errors, mistakes, and even sins may show up. However, even nondenominational groups are subject to the same issues as Churches in a denomination. Both groups have made mistakes. Both groups have very good advantages and things that can always get better. In my opinion it's just a matter of what you feel best represents the body of believers you belong to.
John 13:35 make it very clear that to love other believers is not an option. The world will judge if are real Christians by the way we have love for oneanother. If we feel being in a denomination is not what you want to be a part of, or the other way that we do feel being in a denomination is best, we are not to put a genuine beliver down. There are some groups that are a cult and we need to alert people. There is no way to justify spreading hate.
To be a genuine follower of Christ and to show the Love of Christ is very difficult. Jesus taught us how to treat our emeny, and how to love the unlovely. To down grade a group of genuine believers is a sin and there is no doubt about it. To show love when some group or person is hateful toward us is not our nature, but it is the nature of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, we need to watch carefully our attitude, and our talk, by becoming more like Jesus.:wink:

 

[caprice09]

I agree

It sounds to me like we are saying the same thing in different terms. Or else your denominational experience was far more pleasant than mine. I do not expect perfection in any one believer, therefore what sense is it to expect it from any number of them. My perception of these organizations is that they have a genuine revelation in one particular aspect of ministry, and condemn all others that do not agree to the importance of this particular precept. Since another denomination received a different revelation, highlighting a different aspect of Christ's ministry, they are offended (whether or not these be directly contradictory), and insist all others abide by the precept their revelation highlighted. Does that not fall into the warning of trying to pull the speck out of another's eye, unaware of just as important an issue with yourself?

I swear one day I am going to come to an intersection and see three churches. One sign says "The Way," another says, "The Truth," and another says, "The Life," and they are all going to argue about which of them had a better understanding and reverence of God's Word as a whole!

 

[farout]

It sounds like you have not had a good experience, and For that I am sorry. I have seem wonderful denominations working together to accomplish great things, The Southern Baptist and the Independant Baptist in Boliva helped so many in 1993 to save so many when to country was in a general strike. I saw this firts hand. I have see the same in the US.

 

[Boanerges]

I have a genuine love for the body of Christ no matter what label they may wear.

 

[David777]

Hello all.

Which denomination?

Are all denominations following Jesus?

I will use an example of a denomination from the NT
which is one perhaps a Christian should not attend.
This is a global church, the one and only true bride
or so she thinks.

Revelations 18

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

There is no doubt that there are churches that Christians
should avoid. Some churches have corrupt doctrines and
are not led by the Holy Spirit. The church above also had
daughter churches.

 

[dannibear]

My God is too big to fit in one denomination. :wink:

 

[grandma dolittl]

Caprice,
I think I understand what you are trying to say and I agree with you. There are some demonanations that take a verse or two and seem to build a whole doctrine out of it. I for one was raised in a Free Will Baptist church, but I lean more to the free will than the Baptist. I believe if we sincerly seek the truth and accept God's will, then we do not impose onto others things they do not see as Bibical.I have never read anywhere in the whole Bible where it states just what denomination will go to heaven or hell. What I read is IF you accept Christ as your savior and get redemption of your sins; IF you live your life as close as you can to what Christ taught; if you die without sin, then you go to heaven and if you die still a sinner, you go to hell. I don't see how it gets any plainer than that. However, if someone believes different, that is ok. I will respect your belief and demand the same respect to mine. I do not know the mind of God, I am a just a mortal human and cannot know God's thoughts or purposes.

 

[Boanerges]

Non denoms have their own beams, especially pride in their non denominationalsim and a feeling of "we are the only ones dong it right so why can't they be like us? It is simply the pride of man and a religious spirit that seeks to divide the body and it (sadly) knows no particular bounds church-wise but is common to mankind.

 

[bgsda]

i believe that being a Christian is more a relationship then a denom. or whatever. Relationship to christ is what matters. Don't get me wrong we need the church.

 

[grandma dolittl]

Amen. Our relationship to Christ is all that matters, no matter what denom you are. Chruch is very important to be able to praise God with others. We( or I get) get 'fed" by the Holy Spirit and it sustains me for the week ahead.

 

[caprice09]

Amen it is about the relationship! Everyone says that, but how well is it lived out? My problem is the church is meant to be my teacher (probably quoting the "beam in your own eye verse" to teach me as an individual) and yet condemns itself as a body as to how it would live out these truths. Am I to be reproved by them? Or as Jesus mocks should I do as they say but not as they do, "for they say and do not?" The world doubts christianity, by and lage, for the hypocricy they witness in the church. Not just saying "see they sin to," but the blatant perversions of what they themselves say ought to be honored ("If you, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"). Christ rebuked those who would go through the motions of religion calling them hypocrits, whited sepulchers, and sons of those that murdered the prophets! By holding to "their truth" above and beyond the gospel I wonder is this not as an angel or minister that permits worship of himself rather than point the way to God (Rev 22:8-9, 1 Cor Chapt 3). I am saved by the Word of God, anointed in the blood of Christ, baptized through His life, death and resurrection, His flesh and blood is my communion, ordained a minister by the laying on of the hands of God (His Word and Spirit)...there is no greater ordaination, no higher calling, no further that I could possibly be exalted to....If we live our lives to suggest that this is not enough then either there is no salvation, or we blaspheme God to say that there was still something lacking, as if He forgot to also ordain these things before the world was!

 

[bgsda]

Jesus when speaking to the Samaritan woman in John chp.4 described the Jews as the ones having the Truth or in nowadays term He called them a denomination. Like you said earlier Caprice alot of people , me being guilty before, take a verse out of the Scriptures and run with it. Not "studying to show themselves approved, rightly diving the Word of God". And its dangerous. Theres others , like myself before, that listen to their Pastors or T.V preachers and take their word for everything. In Acts 17:11 there were these people who Paul himself said that these people were more noble than others because they took what Paul said and went back and searched the Scriptures to see if what he was saying was true. Now think about it this was Paul preaching to them. Paul the greatest i believe evangelist ever and he commended these Bereans for pretty much checking to see if he's right. Now there are alot of traditions out there in different denoms. ALOT. If we were just to all have or buy a Concordance and look up whatever subject or word we are searching and diligently dig in the scriptures for truth the Holy Spirit will guide us. Dont forget to pray. in Isaiah 28 there was the same problem back then and in vs.9,10 explains how to search "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little". Compare that with 1 Cor.2:13 and w have to compare spiritual things with spiritual things.

 

[grandma dolittl]

Caprice,
My advice for what it is worth is to leave that church and go to others. You will know if it is God's house or man's social club when you walk in. You can feel the presence of the Lord and if you do, go to another until you find the one you seek. I found that the small country churches are the ones filled with God's spirit. The large or mega churches are filled with man.

 

[David777]

Does it matter which denomination you belong to?

I wonder how many people have considered the letters in the New Testament.

Consider the church in Galatia, Paul was not impressed with this church.
Here is one of Paul's statements "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you".
Or this, Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law;
you have fallen from grace". If you belonged to this church would you stay or go?

Then we have the churches that John's letter "Revelations" is directed to.
How many of these churches were on the right track. These churches
were being strongly corrected, they were in error.

I do believe that any Christian should at some stage address the questions.
Is the church I attend increasing in the fullness of Christ?
Is the church I attend displaying the fruit it should over time?
Is the church I attend being led by the Holy Spirit?
Do you believe your church is the place for a new Christian to attend?

 

[caprice09]

I wish it were just one or two churches. I have been through so many it gives the false impression that all churches are like these. Where are those speaking words of knowledge through the spirit (words that peirce to the heart and soul that no one could know but God), prophecies, actual tongues (real languages rather than free floating your tongue in your mouth and thinking you said something to God)? Where are those that teach with authority as Christ did to the amazement of the people? Let alone healings and miracles and "demonstration of the Spirit" and "greater works than these" that are to follow those that truly Preach His Word and are led by His Holy Spirit?

I hate; I loath the game that is made of religion? As you said, Christ didn't die to give us a country club to dwindle away the rest of our days here! Like a commercial I have seen says; "God called us to be a counter-culture not a sub-culture." As the Jews had kosher and unclean so we have christian and secular. Tell me today we don't rebuke one another for the washing of hands and of cups as they did to Him! Trying so hard to reach the lost we water down the gospel to the point that it loses all potency and medicinal value. So the world is left to accept an impotent gospel, or reject a seemingly incapable or uncaring God ("Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?"! Telling the world how much we as Christian are just like them, but with Christ (as if implying that difference was a small or insignificant one). Telling those searching for something more than the life they have been shown that they must cleanse themselves of sin before they can approach to God and religion otherwise they cannot be accepted!!??..


"You have not so learned Christ!"

 

[Boanerges]

I wish it were just one or two churches. I have been through so many it gives the false impression that all churches are like these. Where are those speaking words of knowledge through the spirit (words that peirce to the heart and soul that no one could know but God), prophecies, actual tongues (real languages rather than free floating your tongue in your mouth and thinking you said something to God)? Where are those that teach with authority as Christ did to the amazement of the people? Let alone healings and miracles and "demonstration of the Spirit" and "greater works than these" that are to follow those that truly Preach His Word and are led by His Holy Spirit?

I hate; I loath the game that is made of religion? As you said, Christ didn't die to give us a country club to dwindle away the rest of our days here! Like a commercial I have seen says; "God called us to be a counter-culture not a sub-culture." As the Jews had kosher and unclean so we have christian and secular. Tell me today we don't rebuke one another for the washing of hands and of cups as they did to Him! Trying so hard to reach the lost we water down the gospel to the point that it loses all potency and medicinal value. So the world is left to accept an impotent gospel, or reject a seemingly incapable or uncaring God ("Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?"! Telling the world how much we as Christian are just like them, but with Christ (as if implying that difference was a small or insignificant one). Telling those searching for something more than the life they have been shown that they must cleanse themselves of sin before they can approach to God and religion otherwise they cannot be accepted!!??..


"You have not so learned Christ!"

The Bible (as always) puts it beast:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


We need each and every part of the body to function as intended.

As far as Spirit filled churches operating in the gifts of God they are not extinct but just a little hard (sadly) to find. Still we need all (the precious ones of Christ) and not everyone could walk into a Pentecostal (not the denomination) type church and not be blown away; Jesus has a use for all the members of His body.