We are all sinners and it only takes one sin to make us this.
Sin is an action/thought.
Defining Sin - An Open Study
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We are all sinners and it only takes one sin to make us this.
therealreason
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first, sin is all three. the root of satan is selfishness. its a thought process thats makes an action overtime. and it doesnt matter how many times you do it, if you do it once is just as bad.
How thought provoking! Many things start coming to mind. Sin is obviously personified in scripture but that doesn't make sin a person. Wisdom is personified in scripture. Personifying sin makes it easier to explain. Just as Paul tells us that sin dwells in us and our bodies are corrupt due to this fact. He says that it is actually sin that does those things that he himself would't do. Confusing but I think of it as if sin were a fatal disease. Some people have differing diseases or disorders that cause them to error in their bodily functions and do things they rather would not, sometimes a physical act and in others a lapse in conscious awareness. I see sin that way. The only medication is the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ that when walked in keeps the disease of sin in remission. We must take our medicine daily or the threat of relapse looms over us!
How many sins does it take to make one a sinner? Great question. How many sins does it take to make everyone sinners? One. Adams. We have all sinned in Adam. The rest are just symptoms of the disease.
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Greatness4life
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I love the way you replied, it actually take zero sin to become a sinner because the DNA in man right from birth is sin. Sin is like parasite that reside in every-man. Well, one can't really say that sin is not really a personality, I believe sin is a force or motion deposited in man by the master plan of the devil. As God gave His only begotten son, Jesus, so also the devil gave birth to sin. The express image of the devil is sin. Jesus said to the pharisee of his day that "you are of your father, the devil and the will of him u are doing". This is why when you to come to Christ is not about change of character rather is a change of life. God is not so much concerned about the fruits rather about whom you are, because who you are determine the fruits you'll bear. This is point number one.
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JonahofAkron said:
God's word is an arrow ,straight and true,always meeting it's mark.
It's no coincidence that a serpents(serpentine,wavering,partial truth) voice was in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Adam was told in the DAY he ate of it he would surely die.
Jesus is the DAY that the Lord has made,in the DAY you eat of him you shall surely live.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
This reconciliation is by/from God for/to man and I do not believe God will miss his mark.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
NOT WILLING means he has no intention of missing his mark.
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world so I believe he hit his mark before Adam was created.
Pray that God's will be done on the earth as it is in heaven.
I believe that is the way to define sin.It's deviation from design.
God's word is an arrow ,straight and true,always meeting it's mark.
It's no coincidence that a serpents(serpentine,wavering,partial truth) voice was in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Adam was told in the DAY he ate of it he would surely die.
Jesus is the DAY that the Lord has made,in the DAY you eat of him you shall surely live.
I agree with that statement but why would God throw someone in the lake of fire for displaying symptoms of a disease they were born with(had no control over)?
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
This reconciliation is by/from God for/to man and I do not believe God will miss his mark.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
NOT WILLING means he has no intention of missing his mark.
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world so I believe he hit his mark before Adam was created.
Pray that God's will be done on the earth as it is in heaven.
It is odd how we as people can see the same thing in such a different light. Perspective is what I suppose is the cause. As for answering your question about the lake of fire, there are different reactions that people have when they are diagnosed with the 'disease' of sin. One turns from it and tries to control it as to not let it spread out of control and affect those around them. Others simply deny they have the disease and continue to let its gross effects harm those around them. And still yet others believe they have the disease but deny that certain aspects of the disease are really the disease. God sent the cure for the disease and offered it unto all who have the disease. All of those who apply the cure will see their disease go into remission and then upon departure from this quarantine zone will be disease free. Those who fail to administer the cure will need to be sterilized in the lake of fire which will take eternity to complete.
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It's really not that odd,I change my perspective when I study the word.I am always seeing new things that cause me to question my own concepts.
If I see a doctrine that conflicts with other scripture then I can't buy into it.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
That verse conflicts with most doctrines I've ever examined.I simply believe God's will shall be done.Perhaps my understanding of the word reconcile is flawed as it could mean resolve but 2 Peter 3:9 makes me doubt it means resolve.
From
v. rec·on·ciled, rec·on·cil·ing, rec·on·ciles. v.tr. 1. To reestablish a close relationship between. 2. To settle or resolve. 3. To bring (oneself) to accept:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I either have to believe his will shall be done or not be done.
I don't want to be found opposing God or his son or his will.
This is not a doctrine just a question.
I have no clue how he will work this out.
With man it is impossible but with God all things are possible.
I'm pretty sure that the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world has already worked it out.
Besides my God is an all consuming fire so it is my hope that I will be consumed by his eternal fire.
My carnal mind is my old man,his name was never written in the Lambs book of life.
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I understand. It is good policy.
Your understanding of the word reconcile is solid and I am with you that it is not meaning resolve so much as restoration of relationship. I'd say the hardest thing about this verse is determining the context and just what is meant by "all things". The word for 'all things' is used a lot in this chapter to mean exactly that "all things" (verses: 15 "every", 16 "all things" x 2, 17 "all things" x 2, 18 "all", 19 "all", 20 "all", 23 "every", for a total of 9 occurances). But of these occurances we have to be able to understand whether the word truly means all things because sometimes it doesn't. In Jn 4:29 the woman at the well says that Jesus told her "all things" she ever did. Is there reason to doubt the usage of 'all things' here? I believe so. As far as the verse in question we need to look closer at the context of what is being said both before and after. I'm out of time for tonight but I will gladly come back at a later time and give it another look. These studies always cause me to grow.
I'd like to look at this next time too. Considering the two verses together.
Am I understanding correctly that your faith is that God is not willing that any should perish and that Gods will will be done regardless because he is God and therefore everyone will be saved? I don't want to get you wrong.
Have an awesome night
Gary
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That would be jumping to conclusions,I said I have no doctrine,only questions.Lots of questions.
My faith is in Christ and I'll let him work out the details.
But this is an open study on sin so I didn't want to divert that subject.
I wanted to bring attention to the following post by JonahofAkron.
It is the the truth about sin.Sin was not disobedience.Sin entered because of disobedience.
For some reason God chose to use archery terminology to describe these events.Gods word is depicted as an arrow,straight and true.
Adam was created in the image of god so Adam's words were arrows also.Adams words would begin to always miss the mark.
My question(and JonahofAkron's) is not what is sin but what is the "mark".
Adam could not sin because there was no such thing.
The knowledge of good and evil came with good and evil.
Sin entered by one man so by one man all missed the mark.
God wanted to protect the mans innocence that's why he was commanded not to partake of the knowledge of good and evil.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
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RJ
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Back to the original post of Defining Sin.
I think we all can agree (atleast most) that sin is sin in the respect that all sin seperates us from God.
We as a humans might categorize the "Dirty Dozen" or "Nasty Five" but, I think we all can agree that God has no sin.
Sin is much more than we give it credit for.....Oh! that is just a "little white lie", as if, atleast it is not a little black lie!
I offer this definition of sin:
Sin is anything that a human does that is outside of God's perfect will and nature.
God is the holy, perfect and positive force in all of nature; there is no un-perfectness or negative in his being. God is all knowing, all present, all powerful.
Anything that God is not, can and does not coexist with him.
God told Moses that no man can look at him face to face and live....imperfection can not coexist with perfection, just like positve repels negative and light repels darkness.
So, the next time you find yourself being negative or having doubt and as seemingly harmless as compared to murder, lieing and stealing, ask yourself this question:
Is this negativity or doubt a part of God or would it seperate you from God?
Thanks be to God for his grace and Jesus Christ!
I think we all can agree (atleast most) that sin is sin in the respect that all sin seperates us from God.
We as a humans might categorize the "Dirty Dozen" or "Nasty Five" but, I think we all can agree that God has no sin.
Sin is much more than we give it credit for.....Oh! that is just a "little white lie", as if, atleast it is not a little black lie!
I offer this definition of sin:
Sin is anything that a human does that is outside of God's perfect will and nature.
God is the holy, perfect and positive force in all of nature; there is no un-perfectness or negative in his being. God is all knowing, all present, all powerful.
Anything that God is not, can and does not coexist with him.
God told Moses that no man can look at him face to face and live....imperfection can not coexist with perfection, just like positve repels negative and light repels darkness.
So, the next time you find yourself being negative or having doubt and as seemingly harmless as compared to murder, lieing and stealing, ask yourself this question:
Is this negativity or doubt a part of God or would it seperate you from God?
Thanks be to God for his grace and Jesus Christ!
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That would be me trying to understand you better by asking questions based on what little knowledge I have of you. I meant no offense and if any was taken forgive me.
Got ya. If I may suggest beginning to develop you doctrines starting in Heb 6:1-2 These two verses seem to label the fundamental doctrines. Man has established a lot of doctrines which were never mentioned in scripture explicitly as doctrines of the faith.
The best approach.
We need not stray
I am trying to understand the logical approach to reach this conclusion and I cannot find one. 1 Jn 3:4 tells us that sin is iniquity (to be without law). There was only one law. Don't eat from that tree. Before Adam ate from the tree there was no sin in the world. No mark had been missed. The very act that Adam committed was the sin. And sin had entered the world by his action as his action was a sin.
I am unaware of words here that are solely Archery terms. I may not have knowledge of what I am looking at in that respect.
I can't find this reference. Please help.
Without understanding where Gods words were spoken of in this light I lose the ability to make these connections.
The Mark. This one I believe I understand. Jesus Christ is the mark. The last Adam. He succeeded in all ways that Adam did not. He perfectly kept the law of God without error and therefore produced no sin. When I say law of God I am not referring to the Torah or Old Testament law. Sin was being committed in the world all the way from Adam to Moses but wasn't being imputed unto those who had no law stating it was wrong. This includes the murderous Cain who was under no such law even though his sin was wicked. As far as the Torah is concerned it did not spell out everything that was sin (Acts 13:39). However, Jesus is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh. He is the Mark.
The only thing needed was the possibility to sin. Could Adam have sinned without eating the fruit? He could have killed Eve and that would have been sin with or without a known law against it. One needs a law to be iniquitous. And while sin is breaking the law of God, sin isn't only breaking the known law of God. It is just not imputed if there has been no law.
Wasn't evil already in the garden before they had knowledge? Satan.
True. We all sinned in Adam. Just as Levi paid tithes in Abraham.
Does the bible say what Gods motive was? I haven't found it.
Great verse. For the longest time I missed the word 'that' and what it meant.
Back to Col 1:20. To get to the 20th verse we need to consider the first 19 and then look at some afterward. Lets consider the translation of the word that has been translated "all things".
Translations in the KJV
AV — all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no +3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever +3739 +302 3, always +1223 3, daily +2250 2, any thing 2, no +3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26
Of important note is how they have used 'all' so much more than all things. 'All' alone is the most common translation. And doesn't necessarily mean all as in every single thing as I established in a prior post. The word 'things' gives the connotation that the author meant to speak of objects as well as creatures a totality of the sum so to speak.
First Paul establishes who the letter is from and who it is too.
- From: Paul and Timothy
- To: The holy and faithful brethren in Christ at Colosse
Paul spends time explaining his prayers for them Col 1:3-12 then switching from talking about them to Christ. Then we move into the direct context of our verse. Below I have taken the liberty to re-translate the verses with acceptable word translations. The changes I have made are the same choices that every translator must make when deciding which acceptable word to translate another word into due to the fact that all words have a range of meaning. I chose to remove all translations of 'all things' and replace with 'all'. This gives the context the idea of speaking about 'persons' whether they be human or 'angelic'. I also replaced the 2 occurances of 'things' in verse 20 with 'those'. The word in Greek is usually translated 'the' and is to give the sense of identifying such as 'which, this, that, these and those'. The usually works best in most circumstances though. I also removed all of the 'helper' italicized words that the KJV adds in to 'help' understand the text but are not part of the original manuscript.
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all , and by him all consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all unto himself; by him, whether they be those in earth, or those in heaven.
In an attempt to help clarify the context of the verse in question, I have attempted to put it in outline form. As the author made his points I moved in or out depending on which thought went with what.
- Jesus
- the image of the invisible God.
- First born of every creature
- For by him are all created,
- that are in heaven,
- and that are in earth,
- visible and invisible,
- whether thrones,
- or dominions,
- or principalities,
- or powers:
- For by him are all created,
- And he is before all ,
- and by him all consist
- And he is the head of the body,
- the church:
- who is the beginning,
- the firstborn from the dead;
- that in all he might have the preeminence.
- For it pleased that in him should all fulness dwell;
- And, having made peace through the blood of his cross,
- by him to reconcile all unto himself;
- by him, whether they be those in earth,
- or those in heaven.
- by him to reconcile all unto himself;
- that in all he might have the preeminence.
- the church:
As you can see it begins with 'he' but I substituted Jesus for clarity. Each sub point after shows the change in direction of thought that streams through the text. A few observations that can be seen:
- There are five main points made about Jesus
- Point 'b' deals with creation
- All sub points to 'b' are a contained thought and have no effect on 'c', 'd' or 'e'
- Verse 20 is found in 'e' when it speaks of Christ being the head of the chruch
- 'reconciliation' is a sub point of the church
Conclusion: 'reconcile all' within the context is speaking of those in the church, in heaven and in earth. The question would be asked then: Who is the church? Which is an equally deep subject. Those who hold to the idea that the church was born on Pentecost will not be able to believe what has been shown above as Jesus has reconciled Abel, David and many others through the blood of his cross. I have only outlined this one section and it would be interesting to see what the whole book would look like in outline form.
Peace be unto my brethren,
Gary
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Let me clarify,I don't want to be found opposing God's will.
I do pray for all men to be saved and I am supposed to stand in faith that if I pray in God's will I will be heard and that I am supposed to believe that I "have received".
Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
1 John 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
I must admit though,I don't see it with my eyes or ears.
I can only see it in my eye.
I got that impression from verses like:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I am aware of the context of these verses and would be willing to expand on what.
I could say the same thing about Satan.
If we are going to use that formula we should not apply it arbitrarily.
I think the serpent can also mean a wavering or serpentine word.
I did not say I believe that,I just said I can see both sides and I am weighing things out.
Something Greatness4life said about sin being a force or motion is also holds weight.
Gods word is depicted as an arrow,straight and true.
There is no direct reference just as there is no direct reference to Satan(actually"Ha-satin"= "the accuser" which is a title) being a personality or being the serpent in the garden or Lucifer that supposedly pe-dated Adam.
Psalm 77:17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad.
This beautiful verse describes God's word in 3 dimensions.It is water that makes a sound and it has trajectory and momentum.
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Psalm 64:3 Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:
I feel I can safety infer that words are arrows.
I could offer further scripture but You have given me so much to respond to that I can't get into much depth.
I see your point but I can also see from other angles how that might not necessarily be the case.In other words there are other explanations that have merit.I keep it in the mystery category until I have enough understanding to sort it out.
There are dimensions in God that we can't fully comprehend yet.
Times and time and so many other variables that my studies can easily lead me away from the Spirit of life and love.
I don't want to digress any further on these variables as I am trying to answer your original questions when I really don't have answers,just a trail of questions that starts to define something that I can't clearly see or explain.Also I can't type and I lack a higher education and am not very good at communication or punctuation.
Praise God,we may agree on something.
So I would like to close part 1 of my answers on that positive note.
I don't have time now to finish but I intend to complete the study.
I thank you for the time you took in your response and questions.I will try to get back within a day or two.
Peace and Joy
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Please post scripture to support your opinion.
It's not MY opinion.....it's a fact of the bible.
Ezek.28
[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
John 8
[44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And who was this anointed cherub that was in the garden of Eden?
Who was it that was 'perfect' until he sinned?
Who was the first murderer and father of lies?
SATAN!
Satan could NOT have been perfect when he approched Eve. A perfect being does not lie. Satan had already sinned when he spoke to Eve and convinced her to listen to what he had to say. She 'ate' his words and went and gave those same words to Adam.
So even before Adam 'ate' those words, listened to his wife and broke God's law, Satan was already a transgressor of God's laws; he already sinned!
2 Peter 2
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
.
A lot of good points. Can always count on you to shake things up a bit Eccl. Much appreciated. I have a lot to meditate on as far as this is concerned. Organizing my thoughts on sin in its entirety.
As far as eating words and not fruit from a tree you lost me there. Are you saying this is supposed to be understood as figurative?
On a thread about sin we must include the sin of angels for sure.
Gary
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Jesus said he was a liar from the beginning.
How can he be a liar from the beginning and be the anointed Cherub that covers at the beginning?
How can he be perfect and a liar at the beginning.
There is no evidence that this being is Satan.
there is no evidence that Lucifer is Satan.
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth
Notice it does not say he was the anointed cherub,it says he is.
Satan is not the anointed cherub.
The anointed cherub was perfect from the day he was created,Satan was a liar from the beginning.
