Defining Sin - An Open Study

[jari]

gdemoss you got definition of G3708 there it appears... this is actually G1492 , "eidō".

G1492

eidō

i'-do

A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent, G3700 and G3708; properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot. Compare G3700.


this seems to leave the possibility that Bible never meant physically to see.

which would be strange in my opinion if it did as we are not watching each other all the time.

 

[gdemoss]

Would not the sin unto death be the unpardonable sin? That sin which one refuses to repent of, hardening oneself against the convictions of the Holy Spirit to the point where the Spirit no longer strives to convince? Once the heart is hardened to that point, sin is unpardonable. If the Spirit of God continues to convict after the heart is completely hardened, that would be harassment and ungodly. It would be pointless to pray for such a one at this juncture, although it would be dangerous to judge anyone as to whether they have reached that point.

Very interesting perspective. This one always baffled me. The unpardonable sin so to speak. You have proposed one view of it. Some say it cannot be committed today as it could only be done while Jesus was here. I went and looked at what Jesus actually said and found "blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven". To begin I think we should consider the definition of blasphemy.

The act or offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things;

That said "blasphemy against the Spirit" would speaking against the Spirit and his work. Just as the Pharisee's spoke blasphemously against the Spirit when they said Jesus cast out devils by Beelzebub. Above you mention the Holy Spirits work of conviction. How does the bible define the Spirits work? Many of the people I have talked with in the past seem to think that the Holy Spirit is doing some kind of unseen work in the heart of the unbeliever. They think that when you give someone the gospel then the Holy Spirit uses that to bring them to salvation. That he uses the words you say at some other time to penetrate the heart. I think this is a doctrine of men and not of God.

First let me begin by stating that there will be many people in the lake of fire who never blasphemed the Holy Ghost. Many of which simply did not believe God. They didn't speak against him. They just didn't believe him. Jesus stated that all manner of sin will be forgiven man except this one. This has been twisted to mean that you can be forgiven under any circumstances for any sin. There are verses in the bible that speak of sin not being forgiven that isn't this particular one. They are the verses that are met with vehement resistance by those who believe OSAS.

We must understand the work of the Holy Spirit if we are going to understand this sin. What does the Holy Spirit do?

1. He did miracles and healing through Jesus
2. He provided Jesus with information he could not have known otherwise.
3. He teaches believers the meaning of scripture.
4. He reproves the world of sin, righteousness and judgement
5. He gives gifts to believers as he wishes
6. He intercedes for the believer in prayer
7. Comforts the believer
8. Seals the believer
9. Indwells believers

This list is by no means exhaustive. Just some things to consider. We know that the Holy Spirit came and began indwelling believers at Pentecost. Immediately we begin to see him work through Peter as he gave his sermon to those there. After he spoke they were cut to the heart. The Spirit had spoken through him. Next we find Stephen. A man full of the Holy Spirit. He gives his defense and the conviction is so bad they run upon him and stone him. The Spirit speaking through him. No man can say that Jesus is Christ but by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3). So when you and I genuinely declare that Jesus is Lord, we are speaking by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit brings to our minds the things that Jesus has said. When a believer declares the word of God to others he is speaking by the Holy Spirit. The conviction comes from the spirit through the man. If someone then speaks against that which you are saying by the Spirit then they are committing the unpardonable sin. If the Spirit moves you to write on this board and others blaspheme your writing the same is done.

So is this then considered something that would be the sin unto death spoken of here? If you see your brother blaspheming the Holy Spirit? I would classify it right along with all the rest of the willful sin.

 

[agua]

Willful - Voluntarily participating in. Having or showing a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences or effects.

A man who is following Christ because he thinks that Christ is something that he is not begins to get frustrated as things don't go the way that he thought they should. He continues to wait hoping for a turn in events that never come about. He decides to push a little and make things turn toward his intended end. He openly betrays the one he claims to love. This is Judas one who willfully sins to try to achieve the end he desires.

The other category of non-willful sin is where the true Christian has his difficulty. His heart is pounding for Christ. He is sure he understands what is right and what he will do in any situation. He prepares night and day studying to show himself approved a workman that needs not to be ashamed. But then something happens that he didn't quite expect and wasn't prepared for. He sins. He knows it happened. He has denied his Lord whom he loves dearly. He weeps bitterly. He is Peter.

Sin that happens unintentionally is not willful. Whether it be out of a fearful reaction to something or a result of unintended consequences. Someone might quickly find themselves in a situation they didn't intend on being in and when asked a question instantly reply with a lie. And then turn and repent tell the truth about whatever it is. Under pressure they caved but soon after corrected. It isn't in my will to sin as I love my Lord but I am careful to know that I have limitations. I am grateful to him for his being understanding and knowing my frame.

I see wilful sin as "continuing in sin" rather than "knowingly sinning".

This is also suggested in 1 John 3:6

1Jn 3:6 NKJV Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

We are confident this doesn't mean a Christian never sins else it would be in contradiction to 1 John 1:10

1Jn 1:10 NKJV If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

So I see wilful sin as continuing in sin without repentance.

 

[gdemoss]

gdemoss you got definition of G3708 there it appears... this is actually G1492 , "eidō".

G1492

eidō

i'-do

A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent, G3700 and G3708; properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot. Compare G3700.


this seems to leave the possibility that Bible never meant physically to see.

which would be strange in my opinion if it did as we are not watching each other all the time.

Hey brother. I knew about 1492 being an alternative word for see but it isn't what I have used for this verse. You have made me aware of something that isn't adding up in the Greek manuscripts that I have. I am going to do some research and make any necessary corrections depending on what I find.

Thank you so much for pointing this out.

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

I see wilful sin as "continuing in sin" rather than "knowingly sinning".

This is also suggested in 1 John 3:6

1Jn 3:6 NKJV Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

We are confident this doesn't mean a Christian never sins else it would be in contradiction to 1 John 1:10

1Jn 1:10 NKJV If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

So I see wilful sin as continuing in sin without repentance.

I used to see it this way too. Let me encourage you to review 1 Jn 1. I used to take verses out of their context and build my theology. I never could quite get everything to line up. With 1 Jn 1:10 it is in the context of the 'message' John is speaking of. I understand that message to be the gospel message.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If we say that we have no sin (do not have sin dwelling in us)
If we confess our sins (we become saved)
If we say we have not sinned (that we have never sinned and thus as Christ from birth)

It simply is saying that we claim to have never sinned not that we claim to be walking without sin now. I still believe that it is entirely possible to live without sin in your life.

So you reject the definition of the word 'willful'? 'knowingly' is 'voluntary participation' right? Otherwise we are involuntarily sinning with knowledge of the sin. Possible? Yes. Peter. Fear controlled him. So if this is what you mean then I understand. But I was describing knowingly such as Judas who knew what he was doing and that it was wrong. I try to be careful as words can be so easily misunderstood.

Thanks Aqua...for the exercise of the mind.

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

Hey brother. I knew about 1492 being an alternative word for see but it isn't what I have used for this verse. You have made me aware of something that isn't adding up in the Greek manuscripts that I have. I am going to do some research and make any necessary corrections depending on what I find.

Thank you so much for pointing this out.

Gary

The learning never ends. Jari thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. I absolutely never want to be wrong about the bible. I have to say that my previous post to you on this topic was skewed due to bad information that I received. I am going to go back now and repost with corrections.

Thanks again.

Gary

 

[agua]

...
It simply is saying that we claim to have never sinned not that we claim to be walking without sin now. I still believe that it is entirely possible to live without sin in your life.

I believe no one who has walked this Earth has been sinless, Jesus excepted of course, and no one will be until the resurrection. We live in imperfection atm unfortunately.

Ecc 7:20 NKJV For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

But it's definitely and admirable and godly goal.

Mat_5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

So you reject the definition of the word 'willful'? 'knowingly' is 'voluntary participation' right? Otherwise we are involuntarily sinning with knowledge of the sin. Possible? Yes. Peter. Fear controlled him.

Peter was fearful when he lied about his knowledge of Jesus.

Mat 26:72 NKJV But again he denied with an oath, "I do not know the Man!"

He knew he was lying though and no doubt knew lying was sin. So his sin was wilful imo.

So if this is what you mean then I understand. But I was describing knowingly such as Judas who knew what he was doing and that it was wrong. I try to be careful as words can be so easily misunderstood.

Yes Judas knew he was sinning and Peter knew he was lying. What was the difference between he and Peter ?

They both regretted their sin too.

Mat 26:75 NKJV And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, "Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." So he went out and wept bitterly.

Mat 27:3-4 NKJV Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, (4) saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." And they said, "What is that to us? You see to it!"

Was Peter's repentance godly and Judas' worldly?


Interesting eh.

Sorry to get sidetracked. Good thread.

 

[gdemoss]

I AM LEAVING THIS POST UNTOUCHED EXCEPT FOR THIS EDIT. AFTER POSTING IT WAS BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION THAT THE WORD FOR 'SEE' THAT I USE BELOW IS NOT THE ACTUAL ONE USED IN THE TEXT. I AM GOING TO REPOST WITH CORRECTED INFORMATION.





Jari, this is excellent to see you using Strongs as a resource to better understand scripture. I applaud you for it. A couple of things I would like to add for clarity concerning the word translated 'see' in this verse.

As you stated it is not always meant to mean 'literally see'.

1. to see with the eyes
2. to see with the mind, to perceive, know
3. to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
4. to see, to look to
   • to take heed, beware
   • to care for, pay heed to
5. I was seen, showed myself, appeared

From Strongs:

behold, perceive, see

Properly, to stare at (compare optanomai), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear -- behold, perceive, see, take heed.

It was translated as see 51, take heed 5, behold 1, perceive 1 in the KJV. Of the 51 occurances as 'see' the majority of them mean to see with the eyes. The others are instances such as 'See thou to it' or 'See thou tell no man'. When it comes to looking at writing styles, other than the verse in question, John did not use this word to mean anything other than 'literally see' in any of his writings. 99% of the time that it is translated 'take heed' Jesus is speaking. One occasion of Paul. The only time it is translated 'perceive' is when Peter is speaking.

Of the following translations only one decided to translate it to mean something other than 'see'. Knowing that it could correctly be translated as 'perceive' they each chose 'see(s)'. The actual literal translation is 'may see', 'should see', or 'shall see' since the verb is in the subjunctive, which denotes possibility. Websters and Youngs both translate this way.

New International Version (©1984)
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

New Living Translation (©2007)
If you see a Christian brother or sister sinning in a way that does not lead to death, you should pray, and God will give that person life. But there is a sin that leads to death, and I am not saying you should pray for those who commit it.

English Standard Version (©2001)
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

International Standard Version (©2008)
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray that God would give him life. This applies to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not telling you to pray about that.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
If a man sees his brother who sins a sin that is not worthy of death, let him ask, and Life will be given to him for those who are not sinning unto death; for there is mortal sin; I do not say that a man should pray for this.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If you see another believer committing a sin that doesn't lead to death, you should pray that God would give that person life. This is true for those who commit sins that don't lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I'm not telling you to pray about that.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

American King James Version
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not to death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not to death. There is a sin to death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

American Standard Version
If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.

Bible in Basic English
If a man sees his brother doing a sin which is not bad enough for death, let him make a prayer to God, and God will give life to him whose sin was not bad enough for death. There is a sin whose punishment is death: I do not say that he may make such a request then.

Douay-Rheims Bible
He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask.

Darby Bible Translation
If any one see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life, for those that do not sin unto death. There is a sin to death: I do not say of that that he should make a request.

English Revised Version
If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.

Webster's Bible Translation
If any man shall see his brother sin a sin which is not to death, he shall ask, and he will give him life for them that sin not to death. There is a sin to death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Weymouth New Testament
If any one sees a brother man committing a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask and God shall give him life--for those who do not sin unto death. There is such a thing as sin unto death; for that I do not bid him make request.

World English Bible
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death. I don't say that he should make a request concerning this.

Young's Literal Translation
If any one may see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and He shall give to him life to those sinning not unto death; there is sin to death, not concerning it do I speak that he may beseech;

The final thing that needs to be considered is the word 'sin' as used in the verse. As you can see it is translated as 'sin a sin', 'committing a sin', 'sinning a sin', 'doing a sin', 'sins a sin', ' sinning', 'commit a sin'. All of these would appear on the surface to convey the same idea, yet that isn't really accurate. The verb 'sin' in the verse is 'ἁμαρτάνω' but is in the form of a participle 'ἁμαρτάνοντα'. It is being used as an adjective to modify the noun brother. A literal translation would say 'If any one should see his brother who is sinning a sin'. The word sin is in the 'present' tense and 'active' voice. It is to be understood as something that is presently happening. So one is literally seeing his brother commit the sin at the time it is being committed.

Considering all of these findings, I choose to stick with the idea of 'literally see'. Thank you so much for the provocation to study the word Jari!

Have a blessed night

Gary

Thanks to brother Jari I now understand that the word 'see' actually comes from Strong's G1492 - eidō.


A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent, G3700 and G3708; properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot. Compare G3700.

this seems to leave the possibility that Bible never meant physically to see.

which would be strange in my opinion if it did as we are not watching each other all the time.

No quite the opposite is true. There is absolutely no way this can be interpreted any other way than to see literally or figuratively. Look above where it says used only in certain past tenses. The action happened in the past. This verb is in the Aorist Active Indicative. Aorist in the Indicative denotes the action having taken place in the past. Since the author used the Aorist instead of the Perfect tense the definition cannot be to know. Therefore it cannot be translated be aware, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be sure, tell, understand, wist or wot. It must be translated behold, see or look (on).

The question remains: how shall we understand it? Literally or Figuratively?

Literal: If any man has literally seen his brother sinning a sin...

Figurative: If any man has had visions of his brother sinning a sin....

I am going with literal. Jari, why would it be strange to be literal? God does expect that we will be around each other often. He doesn't expect us to babysit one another. Here he is just telling us to love one another by praying for those things that we see that are wrong.

Have a good night

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

What was the difference between he and Peter ?

Was Peter's repentance godly and Judas' worldly?

Interesting eh.

Sorry to get sidetracked. Good thread.

You believe that if someone reacts out of fear that they are willfully sinning. Ok, we will have to agree to disagree here. It is one thing to be so weak that you are controlled by outside influences. And quite another to deliberately set out to do wrong. Peter 'missed the mark' while Judas never shot at the target in the first place.

Your not side tracking the thread my friend. In the original set of questions it was asked "Can we avoid sin? Do we have power over sin?". Your other comments were right on target. I'd love to hear a complete answer on the topic of inability of a believer to quit sinning from you. It would help me understand a different perspective from my own. If there be any holes in my understanding then I shall learn. I will learn either way.

God bless you in all ways

Gary

 

[jari]

Thanks to brother Jari I now understand that the word 'see' actually comes from Strong's G1492 - eidō.


A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent, G3700 and G3708; properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot. Compare G3700.



No quite the opposite is true. There is absolutely no way this can be interpreted any other way than to see literally or figuratively. Look above where it says used only in certain past tenses. The action happened in the past. This verb is in the Aorist Active Indicative. Aorist in the Indicative denotes the action having taken place in the past. Since the author used the Aorist instead of the Perfect tense the definition cannot be to know. Therefore it cannot be translated be aware, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be sure, tell, understand, wist or wot. It must be translated behold, see or look (on).

The question remains: how shall we understand it? Literally or Figuratively?

Literal: If any man has literally seen his brother sinning a sin...

Figurative: If any man has had visions of his brother sinning a sin....

I am going with literal. Jari, why would it be strange to be literal? God does expect that we will be around each other often. He doesn't expect us to babysit one another. Here he is just telling us to love one another by praying for those things that we see that are wrong.

Have a good night

Gary

Hi Gary. I was just thinking about this..... and here's what i thought..

I don't understand why it couldnt be translated like this:

If any man is aware his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Is aware?
You tried to explain it to me but from the little i know about translating greek to english i think that would be valid translation. maybe im wrong.

In anycase I think to say See is often used figuratively even today in our speech. For example I could say "I see your stressed out" when in reality thats not something you can actually see but you see something that points to that.
perhaps similar thing is meant in bible by "See" ?

 

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary. I was just thinking about this..... and here's what i thought..

I don't understand why it couldnt be translated like this:

If any man is aware his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Is aware?
You tried to explain it to me but from the little i know about translating greek to english i think that would be valid translation. maybe im wrong.

In anycase I think to say See is often used figuratively even today in our speech. For example I could say "I see your stressed out" when in reality thats not something you can actually see but you see something that points to that.
perhaps similar thing is meant in bible by "See" ?

Jari, I definitely understand your thought here. And the reason it cannot be translated 'is aware' has to do with the 'tense' of the verb. In order to be translated 'is aware' (which is implied and not figurative) the verb would need to be in the 'perfect' tense.

The perfect tense denotes an action having happened in the past with continuing effects. You have become 'aware' of your brothers sin and are still aware of it in the present.

The aorist tense denotes a punticular or single action having happened in the past. You have 'seen' your brother sin a sin but you are not still seeing him sin now. This too would also cover a vision which you had but are not still having.

I hope this helps to make sense of the issue for you. Please ask any questions you may have as they can do one of two things. Help me see an error in my thoughts or help you increase your own knowledge on the subject. Either way the church edifies itself.

May you have a blessed day in Christ our Lord

Gary

 

[jari]

Jari, I definitely understand your thought here. And the reason it cannot be translated 'is aware' has to do with the 'tense' of the verb. In order to be translated 'is aware' (which is implied and not figurative) the verb would need to be in the 'perfect' tense.

The perfect tense denotes an action having happened in the past with continuing effects. You have become 'aware' of your brothers sin and are still aware of it in the present.

The aorist tense denotes a punticular or single action having happened in the past. You have 'seen' your brother sin a sin but you are not still seeing him sin now. This too would also cover a vision which you had but are not still having.

I hope this helps to make sense of the issue for you. Please ask any questions you may have as they can do one of two things. Help me see an error in my thoughts or help you increase your own knowledge on the subject. Either way the church edifies itself.

May you have a blessed day in Christ our Lord

Gary

Thanks Gary. I trust your explanation though i'm not very good in english.

Still its unclear to me weather it means literally or figuratively.

Perhaps both way.

I dont think it means in anyway one could lose salvation. We may see Death as word scary so we think it means something like that. But theres spiritual death and physical even to believers... But thanks to God's grace we may live in spirit. However as any kind of death is not wanted it's good that this verse reminds us to pray for each other and by so help each other.
Its entirely possible for believer to sin to spiritual death and this verse seems to instruct us to pray for each other so that we maybe spiritually uplifted.... and to live in spirit.

Thank God for His grace.

 

[gdemoss]

Thanks Gary. I trust your explanation though i'm not very good in english.

I wonder how this reads? I just translated it to Finnish using Google translator.

Originally Posted by gdemoss
Jari, olen ehdottomasti ymmärtää oman ajattelun täällä. Ja syy ei voi kääntää "tietää" liittyy "jännittynyt" verbistä. Jotta voidaan kääntää "tietää" (joka viitataan eikä kuvallisia) verbi olisi vuonna "täydellinen" jännittynyt.

Täydellinen jännittynyt tarkoittaa toimintaa ottaen tapahtui edellisen kanssa jatkuvat vaikutukset. Sinusta on tullut "tietää" oman veljet syntiä ja ovat silti tietoisia sen läsnä.

Aorist jännittynyt tarkoittaa punticular tai yhden ottavat tapahtunut menneisyydessä. Olette "nähnyt" veljesi synti synnin, mutta et ole vielä nähdä hänet synnin nyt. Sekin kattaisi myös näkemys, jonka olit mutta eivät edelleenkään.

Toivottavasti tämä auttaa järkeä kysymys sinulle. Kysy kaikkiin kysymyksiin sinulla voi olla, koska ne voivat tehdä yksi kaksi asiaa. Auta minua näkemään virhe ajatuksissani tai auttaa sinua parantamaan omaa osaamistaan ​​aiheesta. Joko niin kirkko edifies itse.

Voi olet siunattu päivä Kristuksen, meidän Herramme

Gary

Did the translator do a good job? I translated it back to English from the translation and it seemed to have lost some of the clarity.

Gary

 

[therealreason]

sin is anything that harms anyone else. the law is not ment to make you pretty how some people get confused by.

 

[jari]

Gary i understand what you say in english but i mean the way greek should be translated is bit vague to me.

but dont worry about it i think the part about word See is well covered now.

 

[RJ]

I did provide you with scrriptures....lots of them. Do you not believe the words of Jesus and how He tells us He is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit?

And do I really need to provide scriptures saying that God is fair?

Do you serve a God that you believe will be UNFAIR?

.

I believe God is who he is, whether man calls it fair.
Once again, I simply ask you to please follow forum rule #7 and provide scripture and, again, you refuse. Yes, you really are to provide scripture to back up a point and, at some point, a TJ Moderator will eventually say something about this violation.

Do you not believe the words of Jesus and how He tells us He is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit?
Yes, yes and yes! I believe everything that Jesus says in the Bible and I do not know why you keep bringing this up?!

 

[therealreason]

this might shake your foundation aa lil bit.
Colossians 2:16-23

New International Version (NIV)


Freedom From Human Rules

<SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29511>16</SUP> Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29512>17</SUP> These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29513>18</SUP> Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29514>19</SUP> They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29515>20</SUP> Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29516>21</SUP> “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29517>22</SUP> These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-29518>23</SUP> Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

 

[gdemoss]

this might shake your foundation aa lil bit.

I am failing to understand what point you are making with this verse from this particular paraphrase. What foundation might it be shaking? How accurate is the paraphrased verse from the NIV to the original Greek that it was paraphrased from? Did you know that the NIV is a paraphrase and not a translation? Please be more specific so I can understand what you are working to try to get a crossed to others.

In the Love of Christ

Gary

 

[therealreason]

just letting people know what sin is. a its the same in every body. i have every type of bible.

 

[Greatness4life]

Well, I will like to add some comment here although, I'm not on my computer now but the first question I will love to ask everyone that is reading this thread and commenting is this.. how many sins does it take for one to become a sinner? Secondly, sin as it's were, is it an entity, personality or is just an act?

looking forward to your answers, and trusting God to get into my laptop and post my full comment on this subject.