Samson2020
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But this war was not with God it was between angels
Contrary to a small fraction, the devil and God are not buddy buddy.....
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But this war was not with God it was between angels
Samson2020
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1 Ti 2:14
Eve was the one that was deceived and was therefore the one in the transgression. Adam who was not deceived made a choice to Love his mate more than God. Thus the fall
Romans 11:32" For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."
1 Peter 1:20 "Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world"
The Tree containing the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was put in the garden by God. And he put the man there as well as the serpent and had dispatched Adam to be away from Eve when her downfall occurred. Could God have stopped this from happening? Sure! So why didn't he? Because it was HIS WILL.
Genesis 3:5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL."
Genesis 3:22" And the Lord God said, the man has become as one of us, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL: and now lest he take also of the tree of LIFE and eat, and live forever:
There was partial truth in what Satan had said to Eve, the part he left out was that if you didn't understand how to control evil you would die, and as God did not want them to live in that condition forever he let them die even though as he said they "HAVE BECOME AS ONE OF US TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL."
It is therefore a necessity that you have the knowledge of good and evil to be like God, your Father, but also to have a never ending life to be just as God.
We know that Jesus was selected to be the Redeemer of us ALL since before the world was formed?
Therefore THERE HAD TO BE A FALL IN ORDER TO BE REDEEMED. It was planned.
God used Satan into deceiving Eve and then the choice for Adam to pick his mate over God thus allowing all authority over the creation to pass to Satan. Right??
This knowledge of good and evil is a necessity for our maturing as without it we stay as nothing more than Adam in the Garden a made being with a feminine spirit in
an earthen vessel. Gods plan is CHILDREN they must be just like him. with that knowledge of good and evil and life eternal.
On the other hand with this knowledge and having been born again(partaken of the tree of LIFE(Jesus Christ) we have become just as our older brother, a son of God, which was the intent all along.
You say Satan is at war with God. I say God has given him a mind that is in all regards against everything that God is trying to do, but he cannot succeed, just as the mouse can never overcome the elephant.
A good indepth study of just what is THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY is needed to understand the above.
You say God created everything for good and he did, EVEN EVIL, ISAIAH 45:7. You just have to be able to see the end when all things have been reconciled to Jesus Christ, and how that was accomplished using Satan as an adversary of ours to understand how it all fits together. This is THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY.
The actions of others are only the manifestation of Gods will as no one can oppose his will even Satan.
Ephesians 1:9-11 " Having made known unto us the MYSTERY OF HIS WILL, according to his good pleasure which he hath PURPOSED IN HIMSELF: That in the dispensation of the fullness of (times) big clue here!! he might gather together in one ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on the earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance; being predestined according to the purpose of him who WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL."
There are a few things we could discuss on the side, but that is not the point of the thread. However, in your own way, you have actually helped prove the main point I brought up here. That satan and God are not buddy buddy, and they are at war.
There is one thing I can only assume might be at issue. The issue of "free will". I mentioned it briefly but never really directly asked what you think about it nor received any reply to my brief mentioning of it.
God granted everyone free will. Obviously the angels must have this ability as well since satan turned rouge along with others. It is because of this free will that one day "sin entered the world through one man", Adam. The bible specifically states this. Sin entered the world through one man. Not because God created it (this is the part that we seem to disagree on). Having the tree there in the garden was not the point. The point was that Adam disobeyed and sin entered the world because of him.
Adam was right there with Eve when she was deceived and he knew they were not suppose to eat it yet she eats it then hands it to him to eat and he does. Obviously God knows all, though, there is nowhere in scripture that states he used satan to deceive Adam and Eve. He told them not to eat of the tree, they disobeyed. God used the OT and NT to tell us that sin entered the world through one mans disobedience and that through one man all can be saved. This verse contradicts the idea that "there had to be a fall... it was planned".
Notice, the prophecies of Jesus didnt start till AFTER Adam and Eve sinned.
It says calamity, not evil. Calamity like famine, hurricanes, wild fires, etc.
Also, the reference to light and dark is the actual, light and darkness. Creation and such.
I kindly suggest that you twist Isaiah 45 and contradict James 1:13; 1 Corinthians 14:33; and Deuteronomy 32:4. If I am correct in my reading your thoughts here, you are trying to state God created evil. That is contradictory of other scripture.
From what I read, God created good, yet allows evil to happen. He allows evil to happen that good may come of it. Just like Joseph's brothers. Joseph told them, "you meant if for evil, but God meant it for good" (paraphrasing). God didnt create the evil, He allowed it. Just like what happened to Job. He allowed it.
This basically just speaks of Christ. The OT people just had bits and pieces up until Christ came along and then everything was made full known. One day he will gather all those in his kingdom (Christians), in which Christians (all those in his kingdom/church) have an inheritance which was promised.
I dont really see how this has to do with my OP. Did I miss your point? Forgive me.
No one can win against God, I agree. However, that doesnt mean satan and God are not at war. If you just look at the OP verses, it says as much.
Samson2020
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Ephesians 1:9-11 " Having made known unto us the MYSTERY OF HIS WILL, according to his good pleasure which he hath PURPOSED IN HIMSELF: That in the dispensation of the fullness of (times) big clue here!! he might gather together in one ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on the earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance; being predestined according to the purpose of him who WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL."
Is that why God had foreordained Jesus to be the sacrificial Lamb BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD WERE LAID? Much less the coming of Adam and Eve?
I'm only quoting KJV of Isaiah 45:7 word for word. And no need to read my thoughts it's scripture. No twisting in the least. He gives himself credit for creating everything whether we like it or not or understand it.
So I guess when he says to Satan later that Satan had caused God to destroy Job without a cause it wasn't really God that had anything to do with it, nor did he know what
would happen to Job? But wait it was God that provoked Satan to have a go at Job?
God saw that all of his creation was good, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He knew it's purpose because he put it there that all men would have
the knowledge of good and evil and be as God. It was his intention all along. Story to be continued as all died afterward.
I think we have somewhat expanded this but it was necessary to discover that God put all the necessary ingredients into the cake so that it would turn out correct.
The serpent, the tree, Adam and Eve who did not have even the knowledge of procreation prior to the fall. How intelligent was he? Or her for that matter. Did they have any clue what would come of the eating of the fruit to other than themselves, i'd say not as they knew not how to procreate or that God would cast out their children, much less that they could even have children, right up until this very day. You don't honestly believe that God told them everything they needed to know in order to make a good decision right? Or did he? After all foreordained BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD, much less the showing up of Adam and Eve.
The serpent was there to do a job, cause the fall and he did it.
God was and never will be in the business of fixing your problems, he will however be causing them so that you may grow up, or increase in faith, same thing. Persecuted for righteousness' sake? Hit on one cheek so that you may turn the other? Praying for your enemies and those that despitefully use and persecute you? Forgiving those that sin against you? Perfecting you in love and using Satan and his minions to get it done. Why do persecutions come to a sinless man except to help perfect him? Do you think that Satan wants to help in this regard? I'd say no but he was used to help crucify Jesus according to the wisdom of God, and he does the same to you according to that same wisdom of the Father.
I would agree that they are not buddy, buddy at least in Satans mind for he is deluded according to the purposes of God in order to get his job done. Suffice it to say we partially agree.
Good enough?
And to throw a big wrench into the discussion, the Ephesians quote at top says that ALL things. Whether they be things in heaven or in earth are to be reconciled. Wonder who, and or what, are included in ALL THINGS? As ALL THINGS were made according to the word of God what then will not be reconciled?
Is that why God had foreordained Jesus to be the sacrificial Lamb BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD WERE LAID? Much less the coming of Adam and Eve?
I'm only quoting KJV of Isaiah 45:7 word for word. And no need to read my thoughts it's scripture. No twisting in the least. He gives himself credit for creating everything whether we like it or not or understand it.
So I guess when he says to Satan later that Satan had caused God to destroy Job without a cause it wasn't really God that had anything to do with it, nor did he know what
would happen to Job? But wait it was God that provoked Satan to have a go at Job?
God saw that all of his creation was good, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He knew it's purpose because he put it there that all men would have
the knowledge of good and evil and be as God. It was his intention all along. Story to be continued as all died afterward.
I think we have somewhat expanded this but it was necessary to discover that God put all the necessary ingredients into the cake so that it would turn out correct.
The serpent, the tree, Adam and Eve who did not have even the knowledge of procreation prior to the fall. How intelligent was he? Or her for that matter. Did they have any clue what would come of the eating of the fruit to other than themselves, i'd say not as they knew not how to procreate or that God would cast out their children, much less that they could even have children, right up until this very day. You don't honestly believe that God told them everything they needed to know in order to make a good decision right? Or did he? After all foreordained BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD, much less the showing up of Adam and Eve.
The serpent was there to do a job, cause the fall and he did it.
God was and never will be in the business of fixing your problems, he will however be causing them so that you may grow up, or increase in faith, same thing. Persecuted for righteousness' sake? Hit on one cheek so that you may turn the other? Praying for your enemies and those that despitefully use and persecute you? Forgiving those that sin against you? Perfecting you in love and using Satan and his minions to get it done. Why do persecutions come to a sinless man except to help perfect him? Do you think that Satan wants to help in this regard? I'd say no but he was used to help crucify Jesus according to the wisdom of God, and he does the same to you according to that same wisdom of the Father.
I would agree that they are not buddy, buddy at least in Satans mind for he is deluded according to the purposes of God in order to get his job done. Suffice it to say we partially agree.
Good enough?
And to throw a big wrench into the discussion, the Ephesians quote at top says that ALL things. Whether they be things in heaven or in earth are to be reconciled. Wonder who, and or what, are included in ALL THINGS? As ALL THINGS were made according to the word of God what then will not be reconciled?
Bill
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That is something i do find amusing, when people will imply that either the Devil and God are on equal power level, or they feel the two are buddies.
Lucifer and his followers were all created by God. And they chose exile because of mankind and the revelation of Jesus as the redeemer.
Lucifer and his followers were all created by God. And they chose exile because of mankind and the revelation of Jesus as the redeemer.
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John 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God, for neither have I come of myself, but HE sent me.
8:43 Wherefore understand ye not my speech? Because ye cannot hear my word.
8:44 YE are of the father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will to do. He was a man-slayer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because no truth is in him.
When he speaketh the lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
8:45 But I, because I say the truth, ye believe me not.
8:46 Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I speak truth, why do YE not believe me?
8:47 Who is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause hear YE not, because ye are not of God.
8:43 Wherefore understand ye not my speech? Because ye cannot hear my word.
8:44 YE are of the father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will to do. He was a man-slayer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because no truth is in him.
When he speaketh the lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
8:45 But I, because I say the truth, ye believe me not.
8:46 Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I speak truth, why do YE not believe me?
8:47 Who is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause hear YE not, because ye are not of God.
