Condemnation of Homosexuality

Lion_of_Judah · Mar 17, 2009

Laudite wrote:
..use a logical method of determining whether each Bible attitude applies to people today.

Laudite, please respond to post #32.

Boanerges · Mar 17, 2009

Sadly many miss God's heart and therefore cannot understand His Word's. God condemns sin ( homosexuality and others) in the Old Testament and the New not because He is some cosmic killjoy. Indeed it is out of His great love for us that He warns us to avoid that which will do us harm. A loving Father will always instruct a son to stay away from that which will be his demise.
The Pharisee's tried to reinterpret scripture to suite their agendas. They spoke words of bondage. Jesus Christ took the same word's and by expressing the Father's heart through them brought life.
If God reject's something it is a wise man who does the same.

The Word of God as breathed upon by the Holy Spirit of God is a living, powerful force. The Word of God as interpreted by may devoid of the Holy Spirit's illumination is bondage, dead religion and always leads to destruction.

Raycol · Mar 18, 2009

Lion_of_Judah said:
You bring up a valid point Raycol. Here's a question: Is slavery ..sin? Here's another:

Is it fair to say the abolition of slavery:
was a higher moral conscience of choice?
Or was it a higher moral choice of conscience?

Either way, the release from enslavement of another person is no doubt an act of unselfishness. Particularly in contrast
to someone holding a person in enslavement ..an act of control over another's life direction.

If we apply this argument to homosexuality: Is it a..
higher moral conscience of choice?
or a higher moral choice of conscience?

It is neither. Because there is nothing gained in itself, except gratification of self. Emotionally & physically.

There is gain in the release of someone from slavery. Much gain. What gain is there in homosexuality?
Carried out to it's conclusion, human existence ..ceases' to exist.

I hope this helps bring some answers to your question on a logical level.
At the very least, I hope it generates more questions for you to ponder.

God bless, LoJ

oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Wingdings; panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:2; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 268435456 0 0 -2147483648 0;} @font-face {font-family:Georgia; panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:647 0 0 0 159 0;} @font-face {font-family:"Trebuchet MS"; panose-1:2 11 6 3 2 2 2 2 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:647 0 0 0 159 0;} @font-face {font-family:Times-Roman; panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-format

ther; mso-font-pitch:auto; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} h1 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:1; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-font-kerning:0pt; font-weight:bold;} h2 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:108.0pt; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:2; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; font-weight:bold;} h3 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:72.0pt; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:3; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; font-weight:bold;} h4 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:4; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; font-weight:bold;} h5 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:5; font-size:18.0pt; font-family:Georgia; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; font-weight:normal;} h6 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:right; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:6; font-size:14.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Arial; font-weight:normal;} p.MsoHeading7, li.MsoHeading7, div.MsoHeading7 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:7; font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:gray; font-weight:bold;} p.MsoBodyText, li.MsoBodyText, div.MsoBodyText {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoBodyTextIndent, li.MsoBodyTextIndent, div.MsoBodyTextIndent {margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:36.0pt; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoBodyText2, li.MsoBodyText2, div.MsoBodyText2 {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoBodyText3, li.MsoBodyText3, div.MsoBodyText3 {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:14.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoBodyTextIndent2, li.MsoBodyTextIndent2, div.MsoBodyTextIndent2 {margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:72.0pt; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-indent:-72.0pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:EN-US; font-weight:bold;} p.MsoBodyTextIndent3, li.MsoBodyTextIndent3, div.MsoBodyTextIndent3 {margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:36.0pt; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Times-Roman; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:EN-US;} p.MsoBlockText, li.MsoBlockText, div.MsoBlockText {margin-top:0cm; margin-right:1.0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:1.0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color

urple; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} strong {mso-ascii-font-family:Arial; mso-hansi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;} p {margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} pre {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New";} tt {mso-ascii-font-family:"Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New"; mso-hansi-font-family:"Courier New"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Courier New";} span.CITE {mso-style-name:CITE; mso-style-parent:""; font-style:italic;} p.H4, li.H4, div.H4 {mso-style-name:H4; mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:5; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; font-weight:bold;} p.H5, li.H5, div.H5 {mso-style-name:H5; mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:6; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; font-weight:bold;} p.articledetails, li.articledetails, div.articledetails {mso-style-name:articledetails; margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:9.5pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:black;} span.intro1 {mso-style-name:intro1; mso-ansi-font-size:13.5pt; mso-bidi-font-size:13.5pt; mso-ascii-font-family:"Trebuchet MS"; mso-hansi-font-family:"Trebuchet MS";} p.H1, li.H1, div.H1 {mso-style-name:H1; mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:2; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:24.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-font-kerning:18.0pt; font-weight:bold;} p.Blockquote, li.Blockquote, div.Blockquote {mso-style-name:Blockquote; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:18.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:18.0pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.H2, li.H2, div.H2 {mso-style-name:H2; mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:3; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:18.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; font-weight:bold;} p.H3, li.H3, div.H3 {mso-style-name:H3; mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:4; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; font-weight:bold;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:2; mso-list-template-ids:0;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level2 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level3 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level4 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level5 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level6 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level7 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level8 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level9 {mso-level-start-at:0; mso-level-text:""; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; margin-left:0cm; text-indent:0cm;} @list l1 {mso-list-id:493886351; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-348470560 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l1:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l2 {mso-list-id:859314400; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:400341762 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l2:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l3 {mso-list-id:883443609; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:508736618 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l3:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l4 {mso-list-id:889534931; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1040187820 67698705 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} @list l4:level1 {mso-level-text:"%1\)"; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l5 {mso-list-id:991249076; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1985897468 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l5:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l6 {mso-list-id:1031344449; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1182415886 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l6:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l7 {mso-list-id:1186670711; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:225732584 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l7:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l8 {mso-list-id:1263487030; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-196310546 222876586 -643409608 1015735070 -1180412302 -1223803444 473198464 187582120 219175134 -1032792548;} @list l8:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l9 {mso-list-id:1294168466; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1780140178 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l9:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l10 {mso-list-id:1377506435; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1154112112 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l10:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} ol {margin-bottom:0cm;} ul {margin-bottom:0cm;} --> </style> Lion of Judah,
 
In your post, you seem to be putting forward an alternative logical method of determining whether the Bible’s attitudes to homosexuality and slavery apply to people today. This method seems to be to ask what gain comes from each.
 
I agree that there is much gain in releasing someone from slavery. This would logically mean that the Bible’s acceptance of slavery would not apply today.
 
You see no gain in homosexuality (sex between men) because you say it is emotional and physical gratification of self. This is often true in casual gay sex but it is equally true in casual straight sex.
 
But not all homosexuality is casual sex. Many homosexuals are in a relationship, where love and caring and support are shared by two individuals. This could be seen as gain in homosexuality. True, two men (or women) cannot conceive children as a man and a woman can. But it is unlikely that homosexuality will be so common that humanity will cease to exist.

Akinbowale · Mar 18, 2009

Prohibition of unlawful marriage relationship

PROHIBITION OF UNLAWFUL MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIP AND ADOLATRY
Leviticus 18: 6-23; 20: 10:10-21; Exodus 20:14; Deuteronomy 5:18; 22:30; 23: 17; 27: 20-26; Romans 1:26-27; 1Corinthians 6:9; Hebrews 13:4

Marriage and ungodly worship were the two areas where the Egyptians and Canaanites had negatively influenced the children of Israel. Those nations were permissive, promiscuous, licentious and idolatrous in their beliefs and practices.
Sexual perversions of all sorts characterized their religious and social lives. They freely practiced incest, homosexuality (sodomy or lesbianism), bestiality, sacrificing their seed to Molech, etc. These practices were carried out in Egypt and Canaan during some idolatrous celebrations and also for the sake of personal pleasure. But God commanded the children of Israel not to copy them or even desire to be like them in any of these ways:
First, Incest: This is any form of sexual relationship or marriage between close relations.
Such will include marrying a parent, sibling, half brother or half sister, step mother or father, grand children, aunt, uncle and in-laws.
Second, Adultery: This includes any sexual relationship or marriage to another person’s spouse. Regardless of the whether the spouse is living with his or her partner, divorced or separated, we are forbidden from having any sexual relationship with him or her.
Third, sexual relationship with a menstruating woman: It is said that this practice was connected with some idolatrous rituals.
Fourth, Homosexuality: This could be in form of sodomy ( a man having sexual relations with another man) or lesbianism ( a woman having sexual relationship with another woman). God says it is an abomination regardless or what people and nations say about it. Even though some religious leaders and countries in the world today choose to legalize it, a Bible-believing Christian would rather stand on the side of God’s word.
Fifth, Bestiality: This is the practice of human being having sexual relations with an animal. Some people do so for money making, rituals; other do so for the sake of pornography or as a result of sexual perversion. God says it is confusion.

1. EFFECTS OF UNGODLY MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIP AND IDOL WORSHIP
Incest would result in a conflict of roles between those who are engaged in it. For instance, should a daughter marry her father, and then she would have a double role as a wife and a daughter to same man at the same time. Her own children will also share the same father with her! Besides, incest is a form of breeding that has the tendency to weaken the genetic material. It encourages the propagation of hereditary disorder and narrows the scope of social tie and brotherhood among people.
With those who approve homosexuality will have a hard tome explaining how two sodomites can become one flesh with one another since the rib bone taking from man was used to form a woman and not another man. This is the same for lesbians
The bestial person is even more absurd – a man or woman being one flesh with an animal. What an abomination!
Before the enactment of these laws there is no doubt that some of these practices went on among the children of Israel. For instance, Jacob married two sisters, Rachael and Leah (Genesis 29:16-30); Abraham married his half sister (Genesis 20:12); Reuben slept with his step mother, that is his father’s wife, (Genesis 35:22) and not without a curse. But after the Lord had given these laws such practices became abominable among them.
God also forbade the children of Israel form the common idolatrous practice of making their children to pass through the fire. Idolatry is a rude challenge to God’s sovereignty and authority. In The New Testament, we are exhorted to avoid not only literal idols but also things sacrifice to idols and subtle idolatry, such as covetousness (Ephesians 5:3-5; 1John 5:21). Anything we set our hearts upon so much that it takes over our devotion has become an idol and must be avoided.

2. WARNING FOR THE HEAVEN-BOUND CHRISTIAN
Joshua 1:8; Deuteronomy 28:15; Psalm 1:1-3; Isaiah 1:19; 1Joshua 2:17

“If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the Land” (Isaiah 1:19) There is no respecter of persons with God and there is nothing like unconditional security of believers. The Canaanites sinned and God judge them. We should learn from the calamity and mistakes of other people. The children of Israel had the Canaanites as an example of divine wrath against sin. But unfortunately, they did not learn their lesson. They sin against God and they became examples to us who are under the New Testament “Now all these things happened for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore, let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall” (1Corinthians 10:11-12; Romans 11:17-22). However, God did not only warn against disobedience, He also promised eternal life to those who keep His commandment. He said, “Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord” Leviticus 18:5).

Raycol · Mar 18, 2009

Akinbowale said:
PROHIBITION OF UNLAWFUL MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIP AND IDOLATRY
Sexual perversions of all sorts characterized their religious and social lives. They freely practiced incest, homosexuality (sodomy or lesbianism), bestiality, sacrificing their seed to Molech, etc. These practices were carried out in Egypt and Canaan during some idolatrous celebrations and also for the sake of personal pleasure. But God commanded the children of Israel not to copy them or even desire to be like them in any of these ways:
...... Fourth, Homosexuality: This could be in form of sodomy ( a man having sexual relations with another man) or lesbianism ( a woman having sexual relationship with another woman). God says it is an abomination regardless or what people and nations say about it. Even though some religious leaders and countries in the world today choose to legalize it, a Bible-believing Christian would rather stand on the side of God’s word.

oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Wingdings; panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:2; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 268435456 0 0 -2147483648 0;} @font-face {font-family:Georgia; panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:647 0 0 0 159 0;} @font-face {font-family:"Trebuchet MS"; panose-1:2 11 6 3 2 2 2 2 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:647 0 0 0 159 0;} @font-face {font-family:Times-Roman; panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-format

ther; mso-font-pitch:auto; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} h1 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:1; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-font-kerning:0pt; font-weight:bold;} h2 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:108.0pt; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:2; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; font-weight:bold;} h3 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:72.0pt; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:3; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; font-weight:bold;} h4 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:4; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; font-weight:bold;} h5 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:5; font-size:18.0pt; font-family:Georgia; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; font-weight:normal;} h6 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-align:right; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:6; font-size:14.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Arial; font-weight:normal;} p.MsoHeading7, li.MsoHeading7, div.MsoHeading7 {mso-style-next:Normal; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:7; font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:gray; font-weight:bold;} p.MsoBodyText, li.MsoBodyText, div.MsoBodyText {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoBodyTextIndent, li.MsoBodyTextIndent, div.MsoBodyTextIndent {margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:36.0pt; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoBodyText2, li.MsoBodyText2, div.MsoBodyText2 {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoBodyText3, li.MsoBodyText3, div.MsoBodyText3 {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:14.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.MsoBodyTextIndent2, li.MsoBodyTextIndent2, div.MsoBodyTextIndent2 {margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:72.0pt; margin-bottom:.0001pt; text-indent:-72.0pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:EN-US; font-weight:bold;} p.MsoBodyTextIndent3, li.MsoBodyTextIndent3, div.MsoBodyTextIndent3 {margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:36.0pt; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Times-Roman; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:EN-US;} p.MsoBlockText, li.MsoBlockText, div.MsoBlockText {margin-top:0cm; margin-right:1.0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:1.0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color

urple; text-decoration:underline; text-underline:single;} strong {mso-ascii-font-family:Arial; mso-hansi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;} p {margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} pre {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New";} tt {mso-ascii-font-family:"Courier New"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New"; mso-hansi-font-family:"Courier New"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Courier New";} span.CITE {mso-style-name:CITE; mso-style-parent:""; font-style:italic;} p.H4, li.H4, div.H4 {mso-style-name:H4; mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:5; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; font-weight:bold;} p.H5, li.H5, div.H5 {mso-style-name:H5; mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:6; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; font-weight:bold;} p.articledetails, li.articledetails, div.articledetails {mso-style-name:articledetails; margin-right:0cm; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:9.5pt; font-family:Arial; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:black;} span.intro1 {mso-style-name:intro1; mso-ansi-font-size:13.5pt; mso-bidi-font-size:13.5pt; mso-ascii-font-family:"Trebuchet MS"; mso-hansi-font-family:"Trebuchet MS";} p.H1, li.H1, div.H1 {mso-style-name:H1; mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:2; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:24.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-font-kerning:18.0pt; font-weight:bold;} p.Blockquote, li.Blockquote, div.Blockquote {mso-style-name:Blockquote; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:18.0pt; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:18.0pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} p.H2, li.H2, div.H2 {mso-style-name:H2; mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:3; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:18.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; font-weight:bold;} p.H3, li.H3, div.H3 {mso-style-name:H3; mso-style-next:Normal; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:5.0pt; margin-left:0cm; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; page-break-after:avoid; mso-outline-level:4; mso-layout-grid-align:none; text-autospace:none; font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; font-weight:bold;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:2; mso-list-template-ids:0;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level2 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level3 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level4 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level5 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level6 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level7 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level8 {mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l0:level9 {mso-level-start-at:0; mso-level-text:""; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; margin-left:0cm; text-indent:0cm;} @list l1 {mso-list-id:493886351; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-348470560 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l1:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l2 {mso-list-id:859314400; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:400341762 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l2:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l3 {mso-list-id:883443609; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:508736618 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l3:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l4 {mso-list-id:889534931; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1040187820 67698705 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} @list l4:level1 {mso-level-text:"%1\)"; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} @list l5 {mso-list-id:991249076; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1985897468 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l5:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l6 {mso-list-id:1031344449; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1182415886 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l6:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l7 {mso-list-id:1186670711; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:225732584 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l7:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l8 {mso-list-id:1263487030; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-196310546 222876586 -643409608 1015735070 -1180412302 -1223803444 473198464 187582120 219175134 -1032792548;} @list l8:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l9 {mso-list-id:1294168466; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1780140178 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l9:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} @list l10 {mso-list-id:1377506435; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:1154112112 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;} @list l10:level1 {mso-level-number-format:bullet; mso-level-text:; mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;} ol {margin-bottom:0cm;} ul {margin-bottom:0cm;} --> </style>
The above quote is inaccurate because there is no reference in the Old Testament to lesbianism. Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 refer to a man lying (having sex) with a man as with a woman. There is absolutely no mention of women having sex with women. There is also no mention of lesbianism in the Sodom story (Genesis 19).

Boanerges · Mar 18, 2009

This thread reminds me of a spider spinning a web one thread at a time. Take enough twists and turns from the heart of scripture and one can have any doctrine that suits their fleshly lifestyle.

junglman · Mar 18, 2009

Mat 4:23 Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.

When we read this verse, we see what Jesus' main ministry was. 1st Repentance of sin, and 2nd a demonstration of the power of God, such as healing every kind of disease and sickness. The two go hand in hand, the preaching of the Word and a demonstration of His power. When John sent his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one or should we wait for another. How did Jesus respond?Mat 11:4 Jesus and said to them, "Go and report to John what you hear and see: Mat 11:5 {the} BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT and {the} lame walk, {the} lepers are cleansed and {the} deaf hear, {the} dead are raised up, and {the} POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM. Just two examples of the Gospel.

Now, in reference to the Scripture in Mat. 4:23. Why does Mathew use disease and sickness in the same verse? Aren't they the same thing? The word "disease" in the Greek is what we perceive: cancer, cold, flu, leukemia, and every form of disease that their is. Now the word "sickness' is completely different. The word in Greek is "malakia", which means first and foremost "softness", the second is "bodily weakness and infirmity". It doesn't end their let follow the word to its' root. The root is "malakos", which means 1) soft, soft to the touch,2) metaph. in a bad sense
a) effeminate
1) of a catamite
2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
4) of a male prostitute

So if Christ believed a homosexual lifestyle was acceptable, why did He go around healing them? In the beginning God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. One of the definition of the latter is #3 of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness. This is black and white. It doesn't matter if they love each other or sober, bottom line it is "unnatural", it is contrary to what God created and His intentions of a relationship, which is between man and woman. No where in Scripture do we find Christ, Paul or any of the apostles condoning a relationship between two people of the same sex, in OT or NT. Christ cannot go against Himself or God. What was established in the beginning is how it is today.

We seem to deviate from the power of the Cross, and what Jesus did there. We seem to focus on human wisdom and teaching but leave the power of the Holy Spirit. The purpose of the power of God is to glorify the name of God. 1 Corinthians 1 explains this very clearly on the wisdom of the world and the wisdom of Christ. We focus.on studying dissecting trying to conform or justify our fleshly actions with the Bible and neglect the personal relationship that Christ longs for.Jhn 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you". It is through worship and developing our relationship with the Father and Christ that will teach us what is right and natural. Examine your heart and see. Be blessed

iamamazed · Mar 18, 2009

A woman cant have sex with another woman. That is why the Bible doesnt say those actual words. Sex is when one becomes one with another. The only way that can happen is if well ....Literally you become one. To become one, you need a male. Impossible for a woman. Inhibition, will power and a brain is what separates us from mere animals. Humans sin, but have a brain and can repent. Amimals however are not as intellegent. That is what separates us from animals. The ability to inhibit our desires. Amen?

Lion_of_Judah · Mar 19, 2009

Raycol said:
<LINK href="file:///C:/Users/Colin/AppData/Local/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml" rel=File-List><STYLE>  </STYLE>
In your post, you seem to be putting forward an alternative logical method of determining whether the Bible’s attitudes to homosexuality and slavery apply to people today. This method seems to be to ask what gain comes from each.

This is often true in casual gay sex but it is equally true in casual straight sex.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o />
Many homosexuals are in a relationship, where love and caring and support are shared by two individuals. This could be seen as gain in homosexuality.

I am not trying to apply this to people today, as much as an seeing the overall picture.

In response to Laudite's question, looking at the subject on a logical basis, this is what I'm pointing out..

The bible points out:
1. A man lying with a man is sin
2. It makes no mention of slavery being a sin.

If we look at slavery as being detrimental to mankind, yet there is no commandment directing us to withstain from such practices, this issue has now become a moral choice to us, to act on; attained by higher conscientious thinking. Simply on a logical level.

a higher moral choice of conscience

Homosexual behavior cannot be a higher moral choice of conscience, because it does not serve mankind. Making the choice not to enslave people, and/or free an enslaved people, does serve mankind. Homosexuality only serves the one who gives himself over to such behavior.
And, there is a clear mandate from the bible stating such behavior is ungodly.

The act of homosexual behavior is unnatural. According to the scripture, it is not moral ..it is immoral.

The act of a man and woman who engage in sex before marriage is immoral as well.

The entire focus of marriage is an illustration of Christ; the Groom, and the Church; the Bride.

A homosexual viewpoint departs from that focus. That is why God condemns it. Not simply because it is "sin".

LoJ

Boanerges · Mar 19, 2009

Sin is sin.

From Websters dictionary:

Sin
SIN, n.

1. The voluntary departure of a moral agent from a known rule of rectitude or duty, prescribed by God; any voluntary transgression of the divine law, or violation of a divine command; a wicked act; iniquity. Sin is either a positive act in which a known divine law is violated, or it is the voluntary neglect to obey a positive divine command, or a rule of duty clearly implied in such command. Sin comprehends not action only, but neglect of known duty, all evil thoughts purposes, words and desires, whatever is contrary to God's commands or law.

Lion_of_Judah · Mar 19, 2009

Boanerges said:
Sin is sin.

Yes Boanerges,

But helping someone understand why it is sin beyond the proverbial "because God said so", doesn't hurt the cause either.

LoJ

Raycol · Mar 20, 2009

Hi Laudite
 
I note from your original post and your subsequent comments that you are trying to be more certain whether the Bible shows that homosexuality is sinful in itself.
 
It seems to me that this topic is best approached in two parts. First, one can ask what did the Bible authors actually say to their original audiences and what did this mean to the audiences. Second, how do these Bible messages apply to people today (this is where your “shellfish” argument comes in).
 
I will try to answer these questions in subsequent posts.

Raycol · Mar 20, 2009

Old Testament views on homosexuality (1)

David and Jonathan
 
The only Old Testament reference to homosexual orientation is contained in the story of David and Jonathan. It seems clear that Jonathan was totally in love with David.
 
The soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own self (1 Samuel 18:1). He made David enter three agreements of a political and, probably, emotional nature (1 Samuel 18:3, 20:17, 23:18). His love for David surpassed a woman’s love (2 Samuel 1:26). He greatly delighted in (or desired) David (1 Samuel 19:1), chose David as his companion (1 Samuel 20:30) and saved David’s life (1 Samuel 20).
 
Although the story does not specifically say that David was in love with Jonathan, it is still a prominent story of same-sex attraction and love.
 
 
The Sodom story
 
The story of Sodom is often used to condemn all homosexual sex. But a careful study shows that the story is mainly condemning groups of men who try to force other men to have sex with them, i.e. same-sex gang rape. This interpretation is supported by most modern scholars.
 
The men of the city of Sodom wanted to force the male guests (angels) being sheltered by Lot to have sex with them. Lot refused to hand over the guests because they had come under his protection (Genesis 19:4-9).
 
This story also condemns the attempted violation of the traditional hospitality and protection given to traveling strangers while being sheltered in a house.
 
The people of Sodom committed many serious sins (Genesis 18:20). However none of the other Bible references to Sodom (including Ezekiel 16:48-50 and Jude 7) says that sex between men was a sin of Sodom. Sodom was destroyed because its people committed many types of immoral acts.
 
The Sodom story is no more a condemnation of homosexuality in general than the similar Gibeah story, where a girl is raped to death (Judges 19:14-29), is a condemnation of heterosexuality in general.
 
 
Marriage
 
Some people claim that homosexuality is wrong because the Bible allows sexual intercourse only within a male-female marriage.
 
The following reasons show why the view of “no sex outside male-female marriage” can be ignored:

The Bible presents male-female marriage as the usual pattern and implies that this is the best place for sex. But the Bible nowhere says that all sex outside male-female marriage is wrong. It simply says that certain kinds of sexual intercourse (incest, adultery, bestiality, prostitution and male-male sex) are wrong *.