Comment on “The Church Age”

[DHC]

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

According to scripture there were plenty of people weeping for Christ during his walk to the cross and at the cross. And then for the next three days.

Hello Bambi.

Yes there were people weeping over Jesus during His walk to the cross.
But there is a second time of mourning which is prophecised to occur Bambi.

Zechariah 12
10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace
and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn
for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping
over a firstborn.
11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem,

Revelation 1
7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him;
and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.

When Christ returns there is great weeping and mourning. Also notice 'even those who pierced Him'.
That is referring to the Israelites or inhabitants of Jerusalem. So we have at least two events that
can be seen as the fulfillment of (Zechariah 12).

 

[brakelite]

For the record, I don't someone is stating that all Israel will be saved...it appers there is always a remnant and the prophecy in Zecariah being referred to with regards to Israel looking on
the One they have pierced does not, IMO, imply or indicate that it is completed on the day of Christ's death...I was going to post a good response, but I'm not allowed to refer to links yet,
so, I'm just posting thiss to clarify where I stand.

I've seen both sides of this debate go in circles in more than one forum

The old testament sanctuary services were a typw of the gospel, a shadow of what was yet to be fulfilled in Christ. It is the ceremonial law of the services of the sanctuary, the sacrifice, the washing, the lamp, the shewbread, and the incense, which were representations of the coming Messiah. It was through these items of furniture in the old temple/tent and the significance they held for the Israelite, that through the High Priest one was able to enter into the Most Holy Place..into the presence of God. At Christ's death, the veil was rent indicating powerfully that the animal sacrifices held no more significance to God...Jesus had met the requirements of the law...the spotless innocent Lamb dying for the guilty.
And just as in the old testament that the priest had to minister the blood in the sanctuary itself, so also does Christ now minister for us in the heavenly sanctuary. So you are right, our salvation does not only depend upon the cross, the death of Christ, for without the resurrection and His ongoing ministry in heaven, our salvation would be incomplete. And come to think of it, if He wasn't to come out of the sanctuary (as the High Priest did on the the Day of Atonement) and return to the people, That is us, then we would never get to heaven. We need His death, His resurrection, His intercession, and His coming return to take us home to complete our salvation.

 

[Bambi]

Hello Bambi.

Yes there were people weeping over Jesus during His walk to the cross.
But there is a second time of mourning which is prophecised to occur Bambi.

Zechariah 12
10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace
and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn
for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping
over a firstborn.
11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem,

Revelation 1
7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him;
and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.

When Christ returns there is great weeping and mourning. Also notice 'even those who pierced Him'.
That is referring to the Israelites or inhabitants of Jerusalem. So we have at least two events that
can be seen as the fulfillment of (Zechariah 12).

There are many views of these passages. The one I favor is that those who pierced him and those who look upon whom they pierced, are one and the same. At the time of Christ death the Jews caused the death of Christ, therefore they pierced him. That generation that saw Christ death also saw Christ coming in judgment against those who pierced and rejected him.(70 AD). Jesus came in judgment, not in the flesh but spiritual, against those who killed him. He came in fulfillment of his prophecy. Matt 23 & 24.

 

[DHC]

To consider any other option, for example that all literal Israel will be saved, brings with it connotations of universalism; for if the grace and mercy of God allows literal Israel to grafted back into their own tree by any other means than through Christ, then surely one might argue that if God were to be just, and to be not the respecter of persons that the scriptures testify to, then why not all the Gentiles also?

Hello Brakelite.

Your theology somehow failed to understand that physical Israel has been hardened to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 11
25...that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Physical Israel is unable to partake at the present time in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This means the opposite of universalism, there is a nation that is excluded by birth from the Gospel.
Which is what the verse is saying, Paul is telling us that Israel cannot and will not come to Christ.
Israel is hardened, a partial hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles has been completed.

It is far to general to say that there is no Jew or Greek, because Paul is identifying a nation
that is outside of the Grace of God at this time. Physical Israel which only recently regained
it's homeland for the third time in history. They have been grafted out and cannot access the
nourishing root of Christ. They were the cultivated olive branch, we Gentiles are the 'wild olive'
branch. We Gentiles are not grafted onto the cultivated olive branch (Israel). We Gentiles are
grafted in kindness into Christ.

Your theology uses too wide a brush to paint the picture that the scripture reveals.
That is why you have not correctly understood (Romans 11:25).

The hardness or blindness applied to physical Israel is only a temporary measure.
Why would God exclude this nation (Israel) from salvation, because He does not
hold them down forever.

 

[brakelite]

Hello Bambi.

Yes there were people weeping over Jesus during His walk to the cross.
But there is a second time of mourning which is prophecised to occur Bambi.

Zechariah 12
10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace
and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn
for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping
over a firstborn.
11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem,

Revelation 1
7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him;
and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him.

When Christ returns there is great weeping and mourning. Also notice 'even those who pierced Him'.
That is referring to the Israelites or inhabitants of Jerusalem. So we have at least two events that
can be seen as the fulfillment of (Zechariah 12).

I am not sure if Revelation 1 and Zechariah 12 are related, but I would tend to think they are so I am in agreement with you DHC, however, I would like to add that this event, this mourning over the arrival of the Messiah as King, will not, indeed can not, result in repentance and salvation for those who witness it. By the time Jesus comes, His ministry as intercessor, as High Priest and Mediator in the heavenly temple has finished. His High Priestly garments have been laid aside, there is no more opportunity for repentance through Him. When He comes He comes as conquering King to take His people home. The decisions as to who is saved and who isn't have already been made.
Revel. 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


There is really only two ways we can look at that passage in Revel 1:7. Either the Jewish leadership that were directly responsible for Calvary, ie Caiaphas et al and are part of a special resurrection that they may witness the event, or, it refers to all those sinners who remain alive at His coming and who are all responsible, as we also are, for piercing the Son of God. We of course will not be mourning at His coming, but rejoicing. BTW, I am one that believes that Christ's coming is post tribulation. The plagues have already fallen, God's people have been protected throughout, they stood against the mark and refused to accept it, they continued to keep God's commandments and remained faithful, despite the threat of death, persecution, hunger, thirst.

 

[ocean73]

There are many views of these passages. The one I favor is that those who pierced him and those who look upon whom they pierced, are one and the same. At the time of Christ death the Jews caused the death of Christ, therefore they pierced him. That generation that saw Christ death also saw Christ coming in judgment against those who pierced and rejected him.(70 AD). Jesus came in judgment, not in the flesh but spiritual, against those who killed him. He came in fulfillment of his prophecy. Matt 23 & 24.

Yeah...I'm thinking things get a little complicated. I see what you are saying, but I agree with DHC in his post to you...some tie it in with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD...but
I don't...I would agree it can refer to the immediate death of Christ but I also see it as future...unfullfilled prophecy.

I've seen people go to town on how they interpret passages like that.....in other words, get quite upset...but that isn't helpful

 

[ocean73]

Hello Brakelite.

Your theology somehow failed to understand that physical Israel has been hardened to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 11
25...that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Physical Israel is unable to partake at the present time in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This means the opposite of universalism, there is a nation that is excluded by birth from the Gospel.
Which is what the verse is saying, Paul is telling us that Israel cannot and will not come to Christ.
Israel is hardened, a partial hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles has been completed.

It is far to general to say that there is no Jew or Greek, because Paul is identifying a nation
that is outside of the Grace of God at this time. Physical Israel which only recently regained
it's homeland for the third time in history. They have been grafted out and cannot access the
nourishing root of Christ. They were the cultivated olive branch, we Gentiles are the 'wild olive'
branch. We Gentiles are not grafted onto the cultivated olive branch (Israel). We Gentiles are
grafted in kindness into Christ.

Your theology uses too wide a brush to paint the picture that the scripture reveals.
That is why you have not correctly understood (Romans 11:25).

The hardness or blindness applied to physical Israel is only a temporary measure.
Why would God exclude this nation (Israel) from salvation, because He does not
hold them down forever.

I agree with this response. Not picking sides, I just happen to agree

 

[Bambi]

Hello Brakelite.

Your theology somehow failed to understand that physical Israel has been hardened to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 11
25...that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Physical Israel is unable to partake at the present time in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This means the opposite of universalism, there is a nation that is excluded by birth from the Gospel.
Which is what the verse is saying, Paul is telling us that Israel cannot and will not come to Christ.
Israel is hardened, a partial hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles has been completed.

It is far to general to say that there is no Jew or Greek, because Paul is identifying a nation
that is outside of the Grace of God at this time. Physical Israel which only recently regained
it's homeland for the third time in history. They have been grafted out and cannot access the
nourishing root of Christ. They were the cultivated olive branch, we Gentiles are the 'wild olive'
branch. We Gentiles are not grafted onto the cultivated olive branch (Israel). We Gentiles are
grafted in kindness into Christ.

Your theology uses too wide a brush to paint the picture that the scripture reveals.
That is why you have not correctly understood (Romans 11:25).

The hardness or blindness applied to physical Israel is only a temporary measure.
Why would God exclude this nation (Israel) from salvation, because He does not
hold them down forever.

So are you saying that because of the hardening of Israel, no Jew can become a Christian?

 

[Bambi]

There is really only two ways we can look at that passage in Revel 1:7. Either the Jewish leadership that were directly responsible for Calvary, ie Caiaphas et al and are part of a special resurrection that they may witness the event, or, it refers to all those sinners who remain alive at His coming and who are all responsible, as we also are, for piercing the Son of God. We of course will not be mourning at His coming, but rejoicing. BTW, I am one that believes that Christ's coming is post tribulation. The plagues have already fallen, God's people have been protected throughout, they stood against the mark and refused to accept it, they continued to keep God's commandments and remained faithful, despite the threat of death, persecution, hunger, thirst.

No there is a third way and that is, that most of Revelation has already occurred. It's called Preterism and I'm not talking about Hyper-Preterism. Preterism the view I hold is that the "coming in the clouds" is not a literal coming. It is a coming in judgment. Just like Old Testament comings of God against Israel and and Israel's enemies. These comings were about judgment. So also is Revelation's coming. It is not the "Second Coming". Jesus foretold about a judgment coming against that generation of people when he walked the earth. That generation would not die until all those things came to past.

Now I know growing up in a Pre-Mil church many people say that the word, "generation" doesn't mean generation. The problem with that thought is it ignores the other passages with the word, "generation".

 

[DHC]

No there is a third way and that is, that most of Revelation has already occurred. It's called Preterism and I'm not talking about Hyper-Preterism. Preterism the view I hold is that the "coming in the clouds" is not a literal coming. It is a coming in judgment. Just like Old Testament comings of God against Israel and and Israel's enemies. These comings were about judgment. So also is Revelation's coming. It is not the "Second Coming". Jesus foretold about a judgment coming against that generation of people when he walked the earth. That generation would not die until all those things came to past.

Now I know growing up in a Pre-Mil church many people say that the word, "generation" doesn't mean generation. The problem with that thought is it ignores the other passages with the word, "generation".

Hello Bambi.

If you wish to discuss the Preterism viewpoint I would be happy to discuss it with you.

I suspect Brakelite may not be aware of the Preterism theology.

 

[DHC]

So are you saying that because of the hardening of Israel, no Jew can become a Christian?

Hello Bambi.

The reference to 'Israel' concerns the entity defined by the entire population of Israel. Not an individual member within that population.
So an individual Israelite may believe in Jesus, but in general the population of Israel will not believe in Jesus. That does seem
to be the case up to now given my understanding of the history of Israel. By the way Bambi, this is a quote from Paul not from me.
So if Paul states that Israel has been hardened to the Gospel then that is what Paul has said. I am just quoting Paul from Romans.

 

[Bambi]

Hello Bambi.

If you wish to discuss the Preterism viewpoint I would be happy to discuss it with you.

I suspect Brakelite may not be aware of the Preterism theology.

In what format? Another post or something else?

 

[DHC]

In what format? Another post or something else?

Hello Bambi.

Probably another thread would be my guess, as the topic of conversation would be
outside the current thread. What do you think?

 

[NetChaplain]

At present, I find that Jeremiah 31 will be effective to the nation of Israel in general, and not to the remnant (i.e. the "7,000", Apostles, disciples, etc.), which will already be saved. I also believe this is a collation with Zechariah 12:10, which collates with Revelation 1:7 (they will believe after "every eye shall see Him). This will be to "All the families that remain" (Zec 12:10).

 

[Bambi]

Hello Bambi.

Probably another thread would be my guess, as the topic of conversation would be
outside the current thread. What do you think?

Okay, name the thread and category.

 

[NetChaplain]

It also helps to understand that the distinction Galatians 3:28 is in reference only to the call in Christ, not to posterity or physical differences. Meaning the call of salvation is no longer restricted to the Jews, but now extended to all; e.g. "the middle wall of partition," which separated the Jews and the Gentiles in the temple is removed (Eph 2:14), making all in Christ one new creature in Him, and in one another (new Jew and Gentile in Christ, not omitting posterity or gender).

Otherwise it would intend there is no more posterity of Jews or Gentiles, or male or female genders, etc. This will not apply to the Jews in the eschatological prophecies.

 

[Bambi]

This will not apply to the Jews in the eschatological prophecies.

Says who? Where in scripture do you get that reasoning?

 

[brakelite]

I suspect Brakelite may not be aware of the Preterism theology.

Might I direct you to http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/46954-metaphors-revelation-12-a-2.html#post233092

 

[DHC]

Might I direct you to http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/46954-metaphors-revelation-12-a-2.html#post233092

Hello Brakelite.

Read it, no mention of preterism, I will stick to what I said, thanks.

 

[NetChaplain]

Says who? Where in scripture do you get that reasoning?

The declaration in Galatians 3:28 is only to those saved prior to the Millennium. It will be in the Millennium when the Jer/Eze prophecies will be fulfilled in the remaining Jews, who will believe after seeing Jesus.