Loyal
Jer 30:7 In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved! (NLT)
Christians and the Tribulation
Loyal
I concede that one. That's a good find. I've heard about Jacob's troubles, but never knew where the verse was until now.
But even so, I notice it doesn't say "only" my people.
Loyal
Jeremiah was prophesying of the immediate threat of exile, and the promise of return. It's fairly clear if you read chapters 30 and 31 together
Loyal
We know Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, but there were some gentiles who also benefited from his ministry. I think during the great tribulation a lot of other people who are not of Israel will also find salvation. I am thinking a lot of those five foolish virgins who were only save by name and not in heart will realize they needed more than what they thought they had.
Loyal
If we look at all the examples in the Bible when God poured his rath out, his believers were protected not removed from earth, we have Lot, we all of Israel at Passover, we have Noah. I got a feeling you already know this though. But I agree believers will not face the wrath of GOd, don't think anyone disagree with that. It's just how most pre tribbers present that as believers have to be gone from earth not face Gods wrath that is not a good argument.
Loyal
One of the arguments about who the Christians are in the tribulation is that they are the ones who come to Christ during the tribulation, yet it does not say that at all in scripture, what scripture says about end times
Paul says there is a great falling away at end times, and in revelation twice I think it is said that NO ONE repents, so if no one is repenting no one is getting born again, so there fore they have to be Christians that came into the tribulation, IMO
I think its at the end of tribulation, maybe the middle, but no way do I see at the start of tribulation. Far to many assumptions have to come into play in order for the rapture to occur at the start IMO
It is interesting some call the rapture the blessed hope, Wich to me is way wrong, Jesus no matter when he comes is my blessed hope to tie that with the pre trib is wrong IMO
Good topic of discussion for sure, not one anyone should divide over,
Paul says there is a great falling away at end times, and in revelation twice I think it is said that NO ONE repents, so if no one is repenting no one is getting born again, so there fore they have to be Christians that came into the tribulation, IMO
I think its at the end of tribulation, maybe the middle, but no way do I see at the start of tribulation. Far to many assumptions have to come into play in order for the rapture to occur at the start IMO
It is interesting some call the rapture the blessed hope, Wich to me is way wrong, Jesus no matter when he comes is my blessed hope to tie that with the pre trib is wrong IMO
Good topic of discussion for sure, not one anyone should divide over,
Active
Hello Dave! I understand what you're saying. My argument on that is those were isolated locations in the world where God poured out His wrath.
It wasn't nearly what is to come. The whole world will be under the wrath of God, and we can see from Revelation that it's quick and continuous.
According to Christ, the whole world will be in a mess it has never seen before. Where will He place millions of people from this wrath to come?
Of course God can do anything, but I think you and I have been around long enough to know that God works within the natural boundaries of mankind's limitations. I can't see God miraculously providing a special place for His own in this world while He is covering the globe in His wrath.
Active
Those instances with Lot and others were not world wide. There was another place to go in order to escape.
Tribulation will be world wide
No place to go but UP
The flood was worldwide and where did Noah go? UP
Loyal
What do you all think is worse in God's Eyes? A world filled with more lies being presented as truth or terrible things happen to the human beings? I tell you that lies being presented as the truth, is more prevalent today than anytime in history, a world filled with corruption where even those who worship the true God dont know truth from lies alot of times because of the deep corruption of the media worldwide. In the past, other nations would know that things were a lie and word spread, so that lies were less believed outside of the nation that promoted the lies. But now, a lie goes around the world quickly, and those with the truth are barely believed by most (when it comes to alot of things). Death and horrible things are vastly littered down our past history, but never before since the tower of babel has lies been so universally promoted worldwide to the sheep the world mostly consists of. When it comes to the world in bad shape, where death is merely a transition to a new better world, the worldwide promotion of lies being promoted as truth, has a much greater chance of ruining God's creation and even fool the elect as it states in scripture. The coming time wont be much worse than burning people alive, raping, massive murders and attempted genocide that has happened down throughout history. But there was always a place we could escape too, now this worldwide cabal of evil people will control all of the world and the media which tells us what supposedly is happening... or not?!
Moderator
Staff Member
And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.
Numbers 10:9
I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem; they shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that are Jehovah’s remembrancers, take ye no rest,
Isaiah 62:6
Numbers 10:9
I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem; they shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that are Jehovah’s remembrancers, take ye no rest,
Isaiah 62:6
Loyal
I am a God assigned watcher on the walls, and many of God's people dont believe what I say despite me not holding my peace. I wont give up, but it saddens me that people of God are so mistrustful of those assigned to do a job given by God, because they dont have enough trust in the Holy Spirit to know the truth when they hear it.
Active
It is about both the destruction of the temple and of a period where it is rebuilt.
In Matt 24:15 the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place. At this point do not go back to your house. The tribulation of that day will be the worst time in human history.
What about 70AD supported the above? Was it the worse time in human history? Was there an antichrist that fulfilled all scripture pertaining to him?
Matt 24:15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel.
Matt 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now and never to be equaled again.
Loyal
The abomination that causes desolation is probably the pagan Roman leader Titus, son of Emperor Vespasian who led the Roman army in the sacking of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple. That's in keeping with Daniel's prophecy of another pagan ruler Antiochus Epiphanes desecrating the temple two centuries before Christ.
As for the great distress unequalled from the beginning to the end of the world, Jesus (and the Old Testament) very often used hyperbole to make a dramatic point. Think of camels through eyes of needles, mountains launching themselves into the sea. Or, perhaps more similar, Isaiah's description of the destruction of Edom (6th century BC)
Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
Isaiah 34
Smoke will rise forever? We know where the kingdom of Edom was, and there's no smoke still rising 2,600 years later. Isaiah was using dramatic literary devices in his prophecy.
Loyal
There is no record of him performing sacrifices there, and the temple was destroyed the first years of the seige ( 70ad ). So there is no way whatever sacrifices he might have done was 3 1/2 years later.
Dan 11:31; "Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.
Dan 12:11; "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
In fact, depending on what Bible translation you use, the abomination of desolation doesn't even start until 3 1/2 years later.
Matt 24:15; "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
"Immediately after" whatever happens, Jesus is going appear and gather up the elect. You would think if Jesus already returned and everyone saw it, it would be recorded in history somewhere.
You would think if He raptured up the elect, someone would have noticed.
Matt 24:25; "Behold, I have told you in advance.
Matt 24:26; "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
Matt 24:27; "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
When Jesus returns, it won't be some secret clandestine thing that only a few people know about, the whole world will know He is back.
Mark 13:21; "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him;
Mark 13:22; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Loyal
For those people who say Jesus already returned, He is in my heart. He was in people's hearts long before 70ad.
But when Jesus returns a lot of things will change.
Psa 2:9; 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"
Rev 2:27; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
Rev 12:5; And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
He will rule with a rod of iron, no more nonsense, no more false religions, and no more Satan for at least a thousand years.
Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
You would think if Satan was already imprisoned in the pit that Christians would know it. We won't be able to blame him for our sins and temptations during this time.
But when Jesus returns a lot of things will change.
Psa 2:9; 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"
Rev 2:27; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
Rev 12:5; And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
Rev 19:15; From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
He will rule with a rod of iron, no more nonsense, no more false religions, and no more Satan for at least a thousand years.
Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
You would think if Satan was already imprisoned in the pit that Christians would know it. We won't be able to blame him for our sins and temptations during this time.
Loyal
yeap just the flesh and the world plenty of evil temptations in both with out Satan,
Active
I agree that scripture does dramatize at times. Another example is ''worm will not die'' speaking to worms eating bodies of the dead from Armageddon. There is a point in time when all the bodies will be eaten. It is just such a long time that it seems ''forever''. Very interesting topic for discussion.
However, I do not think that is the case with Matt 24:21. There are three statements that support the event being the worst of all time. 1. Great distress, 2. Unequaled since time began, 3. And never to be equaled again. Jesus seemed intent on getting the point across that a time of extremely great distress is coming. By stating what He did, it leaves no room for interpretation as a metaphor or hyperbole. I also think that if Jesus said only ''unequaled distress'' one can expect the absolute worst. He clearly worded His line to avoid all confusion and blurred reading of it.
According to Wikipedia 70AD was certainly a gruesome event. Josephus recorded 1.1 million Jews and other dead. We have to note however that that is 18% of 6 million Jews in WW2 and 1.5% of the 75 million Jews and other killed in WW2. That would mean that if you are correct, Jesus was 0% correct in Matt 24:21.
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Loyal
Yes, and Matthew 24 is a very difficult passage to interpret. I still think that the best way to read it is to take everything to be a heightened description of the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem, and I believe it resolves more problems in the text than any other reading. But I take your point
Active
Loyal
Please show us in scripture that says people are saved during the tribulation, because scripture says non repent,
Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.now this is chapter 9 so maybe earlier in the book it says people are repenting,
in fact Jesus commands the church to repent when he rights his 7 letters,
Revelation 3:3
Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.
No scripture in revelations suggest that people are being born again and repenting and getting saved, yet all the pre tribbers say that is what is happening, and Paul speaks of a great falling away during end times.