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Christian Teens Say Gay Activist Made Girls Cry

Discussion in 'News Stand' started by Christ4Ever, May 1, 2012.

  1. Coming soon to a school near you. As the Bible has been plulled out of schools. Prayer a separation of church & state issue. We now have Bullying 101 from a speaker meant to speak on the subject. That the subject matter we can all appreciate is a subject that bears attention, but surely the speakers background is but another sign of the times we live in that we are not that far removed from "that day". Pray for our children! Times are going to get worse. Yet we as believers hold firm, for it is in Christ Jesus that we live according to His will.
    YBIC
    C4E
    1 Thessalonians 5:18


    Christian Teens Say Gay Activist Made Girls Cry

    Jake Naman knew something was about to happen.

    The 18-year-old from Redlands, Calif., was sitting inside a cavernous building in Seattle waiting to hear from Dan Savage, the founder of the “It Gets Better” anti-bullying campaign.

    Savage had been invited to speak to several thousand high school journalists attending a national conference hosted by the National Scholastic Press Association and the Journalism Education Association.

    Naman, who is a yearbook photographer at Arrowhead Christian Academy, thought Savage was going to talk about his anti-bullying campaign. But the Christian teenager soon learned that Savage had a very different message for the students.

    “I hope you’re all using birth control,” Savage told the teenagers as he began his remarks. From there, he regaled the young people who stories about his husband, describing how he looked in a Speedo. At one point, Savage imagined what it would be like with his husband on stage – telling the kids that they would have to pry him off his partner.


    Naman was growing increasingly uncomfortable with the tone and tenor of Savage’s remarks. There were more lewd comments, profane words and innuendo. And then, Savage said something that made Naman take notice.

    “The Bible,” Savage said with a elongated pause.

    “”The very second he said the Bible and paused, I knew it was going to get ugly,” Naman told Fox News. “It was about to be a bashing.”

    And Naman was absolutely correct.

    “We can learn to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about gay people – the same way we have learned to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about shellfish, about slavery, about dinner, about farming, about menstruation, about virginity, about masturbation,” Savage told the young students. “We ignore bullshit in the Bible about all sorts of things.”

    Some will say what happened next took courage – but Naman said he was simply following the prompting of the Holy Spirit. And the entire moment was captured on a video that has now gone viral on YouTube.

    The 18-year-old Eagle Scout and captain of the high school track team rose to his feet – and walked out – passing by hundreds of other students who were cheering the anti-bullying advocate’s profanity-laced rant.

    “I felt like in my heart I couldn’t just stay there at all,” he said. “It was a really weird feeling I just had to get out. I didn’t want to cause a scene but I really could not stand to be in that room anymore.”

    Jake Naman said he felt – bullied.

    “If Dan Savage had gotten up there and said ‘God hates homosexuals and they’re all going to hell,’ there would have been huge outrage from that crowd,” he said. “As Christians we get the other side of that. When our faith is attacked like that – we are ridiculed for taking a stand against it.”

    Naman thought that he was the only person who walked out – but when he got to the lobby – he learned that was far from the case. Arrowhead’s entire yearbook staff followed his lead – including his 16-year-old sister.

    “I was shaking,” Julia Naman told Fox News. “I saw my brother pop up and leave and I took off after him.”

    So did 17-year-old Haley Mulder.

    “I never felt more hurt, felt persecuted,” Mulder said. “For me, my faith is what I Want to be defined by. For someone to say it was B.S. is really hurtful. I felt put down and bullied because of my faith.”

    And then it got worse for the Christian teenagers. Savage directly targeted them with his remarks.

    “You can tell the Bible guys in the hall they can come back now because I’m done beating up the Bible,” he said. “It’s funny as someone on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible how pansy-assed people react when you push back.”

    Naman said a number of the girls began crying. He said it seemed like such a safe environment “But then Dan Savage went off and it didn’t seem that way anymore.”

    “He had a position of power as a speaker and he was using that against a group of students who had never done anything to him,” Naman said. “I would consider that bullying.”

    “He was completely insulting and degrading our faith,” his sister said.

    Mulder said Savage needed to practice what he preaches.

    “I felt it was ironic coming from a person who was talking about not bullying,” she said.

    In all about a hundred students walked out of the speech, but Naman said many others wanted to. He said some Christian teenagers felt intimidated and were afraid of what might happen if they had left.

    Still, the 18-year-old said one thing was certainly obvious – “The majority of the students did not support us at all,” he said.

    Savage issued a partial apology over the weekend, saying he was referring to the walk-out as “pansy-assed” and not the students. However, he stood by his profane references to the Bible.

    (Video can be accessed from the site)
    Christian Teens Say Gay Activist Made Girls Cry | FOX News & Commentary: Todd Starnes
     
  2. There is a very large and well-defined difference between voicing a negative view of the Bible and beating a homosexual to death.
     
  3. #3 AbbysAunt, May 1, 2012
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
    Bullying comes in all forms and it's not all entirely directed to the gay/homosexual community. There have been teens bullied because they were thought to be to fat or maybe because they weren't popular enough or maybe there is the young girl who likes a boy and another girl likes him so she makes fun of the other girl to get back at her. There have also cases where people are bullied just for looking different, living in what some concider poor conditions(not having enough money). It isn't only confined to the school hallways anymore either now it's done via computer and it's called cyber bullying.

    I was a victim of bullying myself back in the 70s and why? because I was friends with someone who the kids of my time called retarded and being friends with her was concidered wrong to them so I was physically and verbally bullied. I do not condone bullying of any sort because having been there I know the pain and hurt that goes along with it.

    what this man did wasn't just a negative view of the bible it was basically saying what God has said in His word isn't true and to just ignore it...that being said I can't agree with what he did or what he said because I know and believe that the bible is the very written word of God His truth for everyone, However Jesus does tell us in the bible we as christians will face persecutions and the world will hate us. If the world hated Him then of course it is going to hate us as well.

    After reading this my thoughts are these. As christians and followers of Jesus lets work toward loving one another, respecting human life and that fact God created each and every one of us. Bullying is aweful no matter who it is directed to.Let us look back to one man who was not only bullied, but beaten till He was barely alive, mocked, spit on and then thrown to the ground and cruelly nailed to a cross....Jesus was this man and He took this upon Himself so we could be forgiven. If anyone understands what being bullied like it is Him. He is not willing that any should suffer at all. He reached out in truth but did in love and continued to do so even unto death. Let's make this our example
    in our life...yes reach out in truth but do it in love not hate, anger, spite or meaness. Let's remember that when we were lost Jesus reached out to us and He did it in Love so let us reach out to others in that same love that Jesus gave us and that lives in us and let it flow from us to each other and to those who need it most.

    AA

    John 15:18-20 If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love it's own. Yet, because you are not of this world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the the word that I said to you, A servant is no greater than his master. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.

    1 cor.13:4-8 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy, does not boast, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is no provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.

    This is the kind of love Jesus gave to us, so lets give unto others the same gift of Love as which we were given.
     
  4. Actually hate in all its forms is not different then murder.

    Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

    Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: (22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    With that being said, this speaker took it out of just voicing a negative view of the Bible into the arena of actually "bullying". Notice that the student did not leave when the speaker discussed the inferred sexual innuendo between him and his partner. It wasn't until scripture, the Word of God was being attacked that he felt the spirit move him to standup and leave. It was at this time that it went from a teaching moment for the speaker which is what he was there for, to behaving in a manner in which he condemns others for and that is a "bullying".
     
  5. It took a lot of courage for Jack to go against the crowd, and walk out on that whole ordeal. Well done.

    As for the speech, it's one thing to disagree, and voice your opinion on scripture, and it's another to call students ''pansy-assed'' for not agreeing with you. Very hypocritical for a convention that was supposed to address the problems of bullying - rather than enforcing it!
     
  6. That's not bullying. You may very well believe with all of your heart and mind that the Bible is true. He believes differently. But, if we take only that bit of information, we can't assume that he's asking people to ignore the Bible entirely. He's only asking people to ignore the passages that have incited all this hatred toward homosexuality. Because, let's face it, the Bible is the core reason behind the bias against homosexuals. One can't exactly get to the heart of the issue when one is forbidden from talking about it, now can one? Furthermore, he's pointing out passages in the Bible that people already do ignore. He brings up slavery, shellfish, stoning of women who have sex before marriage, masturbating, etcetera. I don't know of any Christians who even acknowledge these passages, let alone abide by them. And when someone brings it up, most Christians dismiss it by saying that those laws reflected the times. We've moved on. Yes, we have moved on. We're a much more progressive society. We have a much better understanding of these individual topics ... and of homosexuality. Why are we still clinging to this archaic idea of homosexuality?

    We need to move on. We need to understand that this topic was not understood very well over 2,000 years ago. And we need to understand that this bias is seriously hurting people.

    This I can agree with.

    I'm sorry to say, but that wasn't bullying. Was it harsh? Yeah. He was unabashedly straightforward. But he wasn't condemning anyone. He was saying that people need to overlook this issue of homosexuality in the Bible just like they overlook passages on shellfish, stoning women, and masturbation. Basically, people need to stop using the Bible as an excuse to be a bully. Not all Christians do this, but I've heard of a lot who do. And every gay basher I've met, when asked why they hate gays, say it's unnatural and it goes against the Bible.

    In a follow-up interview, he apologized for offending anyone... but didn't apologize for what he said. He said that he was calling the act pansy-assed, not the students. But, watching the video, I can see how it might have been interpreted as such.

    Nonetheless, they shouldn't have walked out. If you believe being gay is a sin, that's perfectly fine... Refrain from homosexual romance... But if you want to proselytize this message and implement your values in the laws of our society, you have to be ready for tough conversations such as this. You need to acknowledge that not everyone has the same view as you, and they're going to challenge your views.
     
  7. So, he's only saying something to an arena of people to "overlook" their beliefs in the Bible. How ingenious. Not bullying or condescending whatsoever is it Michael?

    And yes, "gay" is unnatural and does go against the bible, pro-creation as well. Not to mention that 1+1=2. male + female = natural pro-creation the way GOD intended it.

    It doesn't take much logic to figure out a 2 piece puzzle, not much of a puzzle in the end.

    So a Christian is not called to hate anyone, but hate sin itself. We have very right to speak out against homosexuality, but done so in love. I will not stay shut about it whether you like it or not, so perhaps I should grab the mic in an arena and speak as that guy spoke but from my perspective. Right? Indeed.
     
  8. Firstly, not everyone believes the Bible is true, and their opinions are as valid as anyone else's. Secondly, we should question everything. How are we supposed to learn and grow if we don't ask questions? Thirdly, it is in no way bullying or condescending for someone to ask someone else to overlook anything, especially that which leads to bigotry.

    Human sexuality is a bit more complex than simple math...

    I thought you would say something like that. Yes, you have every right to speak out against homosexuality. And homosexuals (and anyone who disagrees with you) have every right to speak out against your beliefs.

    But... if you think that people will actually only hate the sin itself, you've seriously underestimated humans' proclivity for hatred, prejudice, and discrimination. Any implication of inequality (saying that gays sin and will go to Hell if they continue sinning implies inferiority) will lead to prejudice. That's just how humans operate...
     
  9. When you don't have Jesus, yes. There is nothing complicated about figuring out that male and female are created for each other, opposite sex. That's not complicated at all. Sexuality is not complicated at all, but that's your thoughts anyway.

    I advise you to take a look in the evidence and prophecy forum. Check out the sticky threads there. You also might be interested in a book called The Case for Christ authorized by an ex-atheist. I did see your profile that you're not born-again, so I can only assume that you came here to learn about Jesus. I hope that's the case.
     
  10. Regardless if he was calling the act itself pansy-assed, this still constitutes bullying. How would it not? When you try to separate the act from the person, it's pointless, because in this case they're intertwined.

    For example, what if I called the act of not bungee jumping ''pathetic and ridiculous'', when a group member next to me was afraid to join in? Is this not a condescending and purposely hurtful thing to say? Or maybe since I focused on the act only it must completely excuse my actions . . .

    If someone was being maliciously offensive to something important to you, would you accept it, or follow your gut instinct, and refrain from hearing it anymore? Most people would pick the latter option, I think.
     
  11. I wouldn't consider it such. I've heard worse things in presidential campaigns. You also have to consider that, firstly, there were several other Christians in the audience, one of whom publicly disagreed with the "walk-out" on the news, claiming that, as a journalist, you have to put your beliefs aside. You can't just leave because someone's saying something with which you don't agree. That, to me, takes more courage than leaving. Secondly, the Journalism teacher of that school publicly stated that he also disagreed with the "walk-out". He said the students who left missed a very good point Savage made in the few short minutes following the video. According to this teacher, Savage discussed the faith he was raised with. And he continued later by saying that he wasn't attacking the faith itself, but the argument that gays must be discriminated against.

    No, I never follow my gut instinct in anything other than fight or flight responses. When someone calls Atheism bullshit or otherwise mocks it, I ask them to make an argument for their claim. If they manage to respond in a coherent manner, I discuss their arguments and provide counterarguments.
     

  12. A worldly perspective you have there. Just keep in mind that this is a Christian site

    Initially it was not bullying by attacking the Bible, I agree. As when in a Church and the discussion of homosexuality is brought up and condemned, or sin in general, it also is not bullying. Wouldn’t you agree?

    Now we get to the crux of the matter. Your statement on “every gay basher I’ve met…..they hate gays…..” I have to ask would you include Christians in that statement when asked if being gay is wrong and they state yes and use the Bible to support their position?

    Since you’re at a Christian site, you should find it refreshing that the perspective of most who called themselves Christian or how it was communicated was probably incorrect, unless you define hateful as being anyone who disagrees with a certain behavior? Hope not. Because that really opens up a can of worms on moral equivalency and who sets what is to be acceptable or anathema.

    My concern with folks is not whether they are gay or heterosexual. My concern is do they know the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior, Lord & King, or not. If they are not believers in Christ Jesus, and are gay, or heterosexual that places them in the same boat. I guess you can call that boat “Unsaved”. I am not concerned about cleaning them up before bringing them to the knowledge of the Gospel and in the boat called “Salvation”. (Sorry started with the boat theme and just had to add that last bit ) If the gay person changed their life style and became heterosexual and died without the Lord, then it has done them no good. No good at all.

    Yet on the flip side I will argue tooth and nail with a professing Christian who says that there is nothing wrong with being a practicing Gay.

    This was about bullying, so within that context, the speaker actually went out of bounds. Rather than focus on the myriad of religions in general that disapproves of gays, and threats them much harsher then with verbal abuse, he focused on the one group that he knew would not if they are truly Christians, attack him. If he attempted this at an Islamic school (not that he’d be invited.), he’d be lucky to leave with all his body parts. They are not as forgiving as Christians when it comes to their Holy Book. Christians have been, and will be easy marks to attack.

    As far as the student leaving, he left, because he was prompted by the Holy Spirit. This is difficult for you to understand, because one must know and have Him as part of one’s self to understand what this means. You cannot understand the significance at this moment in time (hopefully that will change) of just what those words mean when spoken of by that student. It goes beyond self-determination, to get up and leave. To give you an idea, the Holy Spirit can prompt one to say or do something to the point that if the individual fails to do so, it would seem that their very flesh has caught on fire.

    Another perspective on him leaving. My question to you would be “So you don’t believe that the individual has the right to leave when he’d heard enough?” Regardless if this was disguised as a journalistic pursuit. He is a Christian before he is anything else. It doesn’t disappear. Journalist who says they must be impartial, either don’t realize the fallacy of that statement, or haven’t been reading either newspapers or any news for the past ohhh since news was invented or truly believe their own press. A truly unbiased piece of news is a rare as a statesman in government.

    I hope I haven’t offended you, but attributing a worldly perspective to the actions of a young Christian, will never offer you the understanding that you seek. Especially when dealing with a subject such as this.
     
  13. Agreed. Unless you're talking about that one incident in which a gay teenager went to a church and was beaten up in the parking lot. That's bullying.

    People who call themselves Christians, anyway. And they do use the Bible to support bullying, not just their position.

    I do not.

    This is my concern. You label people as "unsaved" because they don't hold the same views as you. You may not think you're looking down on them, and you may say that you're trying to help them, but they don't see it that way. And it does have a profound negative effect on people.

    Granted, Christianity is the only religion that actually influences state and federal laws...

    No. He has every right to leave.

    Just because it's uncommon doesn't mean it shouldn't be the ideal form of writing. Journalists should still strive to be unbiased.

    You say "a subject such as this" like it's a bad thing...
     
  14. #14 Brighthouse, May 2, 2012
    Last edited: May 2, 2012
    Humm Should I address this or not??? I remember in Vietnam I talked to a small little boy, and said Boy!! I sure wish there was a McDonalds around here!! He looked up at me in wonder and said what is that??

    For someone who does not believe the Bible to start with, it sure would do little good to show scriptures from it. Kind of like what was spoken in Matt 7:6 And NO!!! I am not calling any person a dog,or pig or swine!! What I am saying is this. Lets say Michael I begin to talk about you,I tell people this or that. Do I have the right to do this?? Well I can do this,but since I do not even know the man, what right do I have to talk about someone I have no real knowledge of?

    But people sure do a lot of talking about someone they have never met! Can they? Sure they can,but how can this help anyone who knows much different!?? For to tell someone who knows the Lord on a very personal basic,this sure seems most odd to me?

    Most people have a general knowledge of the bible, just enough to hurt themselves from the Bible,because they decide to take it out of content! This is why we have so many man made doctrines out there.Jesus is not hurt by people who talk against him,he is use to that,Most of us are also use to this,because we dared follow the man Jesus!

    I spoke with you a bit today in the chat area, and said the very same before I read what Brother Chad wrote.WHY?? Are you here? To test? Or to learn,to get people as mad as you can,or instead of speaking about someone you do not even know,perhaps to learn from others here.

    For who can help another when they do not wish it? Who can give to another who will not receive? This is just a thought I have personal.We are here to love,something you have said you have no concept of.

    Since you said this with your own mouth,perhaps then you can learn where love truly does come from, and why we believe we should not only speak of it,but show it as well. I did my best to do this with you today.Many others have as well. I told you before I left ,that I promise you,you will never be the same again. Do you know why I can say that??

    Because Jesus hears my prayers,all of them,and better then that!!! he answers them as well! I spoke to you, not to worry,that you just have not been at the right place to receive.But you are now bro! Jesus is here! True,we all have faults!! True we are all human,and some may get upset.

    But what is understood, is that no one is better then another,and everyone needs love,whether they think so or not,and who can tell??Perhaps when one learns where Love came from,and what it is used for,why perhaps you will understand! I believe you will,because I am praying for Jesus to make himself really!!!!! Known to you.

    It may be tonight,it may be in a week,a month or even a year,but there is one thing I know that you do not!! It is already done!! For Our Jesus came to save that which was lost.If I had 5 children and one of them was lost,would I not go look for my lost son, or daughter? WHY?? because even though my son,or daughter may not fully understand what love is, I do,and since i do,I will go show him,or her. Please do look at Matt 18:11-14) You matter to Jesus Michael!! You always have,and you always will!!
     
  15. I made your responses "Bold" so it could be distinguished between what you were responding to and your own comments which I'll be responding too.

    Sadly, such incidents happen on both sides. One such incident on either side is one too many.

    Agreed. I cannot talk for all Christians. There are too many professing ones who simply are not. It's not those who sprout the words but the ones who live them who are the Christians you want to know and which do not fall into the category you mentioned. Difficult to hate the sin, but love the sinner. More difficult to achieve since we are all flawed.

    Sadly, this is rather simple, yet complex in light of the varied beliefs in the world today. You’re welcome to read my testimony which is how God called me to be His or many others here at TJ who I'm not ashamed to call my brother or sister. On looking down on people? Not at all. Just because they believe I do, does not mean I do. How can I a sinner look down on another? Too often what is meant by those who see themselves being looked down upon is a need for acceptance. As far as helping them? The reality is that I can do nothing for them, but be the vehicle by which they may hear the Gospel, with as much love and caring as possible.

    Too often when I speak those words “love” “caring”, people assume it must mean “acceptance”, as in their behavior. To work that way as a parent I would have to believe that in correcting my children in something that I see as being harmful, I have stopped loving or caring for them. Sorry doesn’t work that way. Nor can it be with anyone who calls Jesus Christ Lord and believes in the inerrancy of scripture. I was hoping my words would be clear so that you could see that it is the believer who has no problem with the homosexuality that is the greater issue to me. Those who are not, I can do nothing but present the Gospel. I would that we and they would be brothers or sisters in Christ Jesus. This may sound harsh, but we are not. Yet my love for them can never be less than the love that I have for any brother, sister or even one of my children. Don’t believe it do you I used to be skeptical to this as well, until I started to be renewed in my mind.

    Would you say the speaker was “unbiased”? Sorry, I couldn’t help myself there Journalists as with many other people who believe they can save themselves, or don’t need it, will fail. They bring either too much baggage to the table, or can’t pay the fine. Idealism is great until it meets up with our own flawed nature.

    Not at all. Just making a point that this subject is but one of many that could be interchanged with various degrees of understanding, but would still fall short of understanding where a Christian is coming from.
    I hope this has clarified my position a little, even if you might not agree or understand it totally.
     
  16. And I recall having already answered that question in chat. Nonetheless, it's getting a bit off topic. If you'd like to discuss it further, I ask that you do so in my "Ask an Atheist" thread in the Seeking Jesus forum (unless the admin move it to a different forum).

    It isn't so much that you're looking down upon them as "sinners", but as "unsaved" ... as if we can't think properly, because we don't believe in God, ergo everything we say is wrong... or we simply can't understand, because we're not seeing something.

    With all due respect, they're not your children. You believe it's harmful, but they don't share the same beliefs as you.

    The speaker isn't meant to be biased. And it isn't too much to ask a journalist to put his or her beliefs aside momentarily in order to get an unbiased account of events. The reason behind this unbiased approach is to allow the viewer to interpret the events without influence from the media. When I watch the news, I don't want to hear a bunch of reporters downplaying the faults of one political party while exaggerating the flaws of the opposing party. I don't want to hear their opinion at all. I want to hear the facts. Without an unbiased approach, journalism would become nothing more than badmouthing and gossip.
     
  17. Well…….let me rephrase this to see if you might come away with what I’m trying to say, by the use of “unsaved”…..If an individual (everyman) is heading towards a cliff and is unaware that they are heading towards their death, would I be looking down on them if I were to make them aware of their impending death even if they really are not concerned or even desirous of my help?


    Would it be fair to say that your real concern is that Christians profess to have the knowledge of rescue from some catastrophe that no one else believes or sees which makes them presumptuous in the eyes of non-Christians?



    It was only an analogy Please see my response above as appropriate to this comment.



    When you stated “The speaker isn't meant to be biased.” You were making my point precisely. The intent as a journalist is never to lean one way or the other, but they can’t help themselves! Do keep in mind that these were not adults, but lets say young adults in training By the way, what channel is it that doesn’t downplay one side or the other? Been looking for unbiased reporting for a long long time!
     
  18. #18 philosopher, May 3, 2012
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
    All the mainstream news channels have a bias one way or the other. I would recommend watching the independent news source of RussiaToday, though. You can subscribe and watch them on Youtube, and they're about as objective of a news spectacle I've ever come across. They cover global events but are based in Moscow.
     
  19. That's funny. I heard that exact same scenario just earlier today used to illustrate why Christians are so afraid for others. Yes, if you truly believed there was a cliff, I can see how you would be concerned. However, you have to acknowledge that sometimes one can push them so hard that they're hurt in the process. Well, you'd say, at least I'm saving them from ultimate death. What's a little bruising compared to that? And I respond, what if there is no cliff? Then you're hurting them unnecessarily.

    Yes, they can help themselves. Many other Christian student reporters did, and one publicly disagreed with the walk-out.

    Sadly, most channels are biased, which is why I don't often watch the news or at least try to watch both points of view. But it's manipulative and deceitful. Like I said, just because it's the norm, doesn't mean it's right.
     
  20. Reminder: this is a Christian community forum. In another thread you did clarify that you are seeking Jesus and wanting to learn more about Christianity. So far, 19 posts and I see nothing of that. But I'll bear with your responses for now to help you.

    First off, the cliff analogy - we're Christians. The bible says that Jesus is the only way to eternal life and a Savior for our sins. He paid the price so we do not have to. Anyone who rejects Him is destined to hell for eternity. He does not desire that, but love requires free will and vice versa. Our free will is GOD given. We're free to love Him or not, follow Him or not, choose Jesus or not. Its simple truth. A Christian believer out of their joy and command by GOD to go out and preach the good news to the world (Mark 16:15) is what we do. We do not force the bible down peoples' throats. However, there are some professed believers that do that. Some out of anger at the unbeliever, some out of lack of understanding of the proper way to share the gospel gently in love (they're sincere, but they lack understanding).

    The thread is getting off topic by now. Let's keep to the point please.
     

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